Mosin Nagant Bolt

[Lions8]

Hey all,
This is my first post here; however I've been a long time follower of this site, and I have learned a lot from it.

Ok so I was just given a mosin 91/30 Izhevsk 1943 by a friend of mine, after firing it roughly 10x the bolt started sticking. Now I know MN's are really prone to doing this, but he had fired it a few times before giving it to me and he didn't have a problem with it, and it didn't start till I had shot it for a bit.

So my question..are there ways to fix these sticky bolts? And how?? Thanks in advance guys! I am new to old bolt guns, but I am really wanting to learn.

JC

 

[Guest]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

Sticking, as how?
If you mean it's sticking when you try to extract an eject a fired round, that weapon as built, cocks on opening the bolt, so you are preforming both functions at once.
It can be changed/modified to cock on closing if you prefer it to operate that way. I've changed all mine, now I don't have to treat them like a Russian.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

if you were using ammo with lacquer on it that would your problem. If that isnt it then try cleaning your gun, the mosins have cosmoline in them ,you got to get it out.

 

[unluckyjohn]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

a guy on youtube Iraqveteran8888 makes a youtube video teaches you how to fix that. just type his name in youtube search engine and sticky bolt it should come up.

 

[Joop]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

If it's properly cleaned, it shouldn't be sticking. However, lacquered cases are prone to causing this. The usual problem, is that there is still cosmoline in the chamber, or (and usually a bigger problem that most people don't realize) in the recesses for the bolt lugs, in the forward receiver. You need to get in there and clean it all out. This area of the forward receiver can be a PITA to get to, however. I usually use a tool like a dental pick, which can reach in there and scrape it out. ETA: It's usually this area that most people overlook and why Mosins get the undeserved "they all do it".

There's really no reason to convert them to a cock-on-close configuration.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

Betcha its the ammo and not the rifle. I don't shoot junk surplus in any of my rifles, including my Mosin.

I put on CMP GSM Clinics and Matches. Just about ever "sticking" bolt was the result of the crap ammo.

Any rifle worth shooting is worth shooting good ammo.

See my post on 7.62X54R Match ammo.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt


EDIT: I see Joop beat me to it...

"Sticky bolt" is a common situation with new Mosins.
Almost all the time, it's due to residual cosmoline in the area of the locking lugs.

What happens is that as multiple rounds are fired, the action heats up. Cosmoline that was residing in the tiny pores in that area- not causing a problem in a cold action- melts out and causes the sticking. This is why it doesn't happen with a cold bore.

Try another thorough cleaning with a solvent of the front of the action.

One trick- if you have it- is to use a 12 ga. chamber brush in a battery drill. Turn it at a decent speed to generate some friction/heat, and it will liquefy the cosmoline that's causing the sticking and remove it.

 

[Joop]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

For the record, I have several Mosins that I can run anything through, without the bolt sticking. Even the dreaded Brown Bear and Czech silver tips, with their thick, lacquered cases, will cycle without issue. These guns have been very hot on several occasions and I've spent more time cleaning them. The others in my collection, which get less attention, will stick every time.

 

[VYD]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

When your MN bolt does not want to open to eject the round, it's the round itself that causes this. All is in the dimentions of the rim. Since so many countries produced these guns and ammo for so many decades, the dimentions do vary, from the rims of carthridges to diameters of bores. Try different ammo. Mine is smooth as silk with Winchester but absolutely hates some of the surplus; a hammer is needed to open up the bolt...not that it hurts anything.

 

[longguntoter]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Betcha its the ammo and not the rifle. I don't shoot junk surplus in any of my rifles, including my Mosin.

I put on CMP GSM Clinics and Matches. Just about ever "sticking" bolt was the result of the crap ammo.

Any rifle worth shooting is worth shooting good ammo.

See my post on 7.62X54R Match ammo. </div></div>II agree with you on this kraigWY. I very rarely shoot steel cased through my rife, most of the time brass cased. It feeds and ejects perfectly with brass compaired to steel.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

Can't comment on steel cases...as there's never been a single one through any of my rifles, surplus or not.

But, these rifles were designed to shoot the stuff- so why should there be an issue with it?

 

[Lions8]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

Thank you everyone for the help! I guess I should of stated...my friend cleaned this one out when he got it, as in getting all the cosmoline out. And I cleaned it before I took the first shot and I cleaned it after the 10th shot.

So it's either my skills at cleaning really lack or as kraigWY said it could be the ammo..which is surplus. I will try again and really dig around to see if I have missed something serious.

unluckyjohn- Thank you, I will check him out.
Wannashootit- I have a .50 cal muzzleloader brush..would that do the trick?

 

[kortik]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

"Sticking" is caused by excessive load onto the bolt from the cartridge when it is fired.

To reduce chances of this happening:

1. There should be no lubricants of any kind between the cartridge case and the wall of the chamber. Cosmoline is lubricant, particularly when it gets warm.

2. Modern steel case ammo works just fine in MNs, except for some heavy loads typically intended for machine gun usage. Real bad example - Bulgarian silver-yellow tipped ammo - jams all my MNs. Real good example - Hungarian LPS - no issues in any of my MNs, no matter how many shots were fired.

3. As mentioned before, rim dimensions (less thickness than nominal), and also, excessive headspace may contribute to the issue.

 

[Lions8]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Sticking" is caused by excessive load onto the bolt from the cartridge when it is fired.

To reduce chances of this happening:

1. There should be no lubricants of any kind between the cartridge case and the wall of the chamber. Cosmoline is lubricant, particularly when it gets warm.

2. Modern steel case ammo works just fine in MNs, except for some heavy loads typically intended for machine gun usage. Real bad example - Bulgarian silver-yellow tipped ammo - jams all my MNs. Real good example - Hungarian LPS - no issues in any of my MNs, no matter how many shots were fired.

3. As mentioned before, rim dimensions (less thickness than nominal), and also, excessive headspace may contribute to the issue.



</div></div>

This sounds correct, because it is only sticking on the extraction and loading. If there are no rounds in the gun, the bolt slides/opens/closes just like butter...and with that Hungarian LPS ammo...where can I find that??
Thanks!

JC

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

You didn't mention that the bolt runs fine when hot- when there is no ammo chambered, only that the problem occurred once things heated up.

Since this is the case, I would lean towards what Kortik said.
Every forum you go to you'll have ten thousand Mosin collectors tell you that there's no such thing as excessive headspace on one, just doesn't happen.

Well, I can tell you that I initially bought two, and having had the foresight to get a no-go gauge to check before firing- one of them failed and had excessive headspace. I was able to solve the problem by swapping out the bolthead for one with slightly larger dimensions.

Given the your issue (hard extraction) is potentially a "textbook" symptom of excessive headspace, I'd borrow or buy a no-go gauge to check the rifle before firing it again.

 

[Lions8]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You didn't mention that the bolt runs fine when hot- when there is no ammo chambered, only that the problem occurred once things heated up.

Since this is the case, I would lean towards what Kortik said.
Every forum you go to you'll have ten thousand Mosin collectors tell you that there's no such thing as excessive headspace on one, just doesn't happen.

Well, I can tell you that I initially bought two, and having had the foresight to get a no-go gauge to check before firing- one of them failed and had excessive headspace. I was able to solve the problem by swapping out the bolthead for one with slightly larger dimensions.

Given the your issue (hard extraction) is potentially a "textbook" symptom of excessive headspace, I'd borrow or buy a no-go gauge to check the rifle before firing it again.
</div></div>

I'm sorry..that is my fault..I realized it after looking back on the original post that I didn't mention that( I was posting in a hurry) But thanks again! I will look into buying one..

JC

 

[kortik]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

There is one more thing some people seems to be confused about - lacquer coating "melting and sticking". It has been proven over 50-60(?) years and billions of rounds fired thru various weapons, including really hot machine guns, that this is not a case. It does not melt. In fact, it was formulated to reduce friction and help to extract spent cartridges from, let's say, high cycle firing weapons which generate lots of heat.

The problem is not as much as this relatively low friction coating, but the steel case, which may not expand as easily as brass. As the result, force of friction between cartridge and chamber is reduced, and more force is applied against the face of bolt, jamming it into the action. Add higher load from more powerful machine gun ammo/heavier bullet, add even more reduction in friction caused by traces of cosmoline or oil or grease in a chamber, add excessive headspace (or tninner rim), which allows cartridge to move backwards against the bolt, and you get a nice blow to the bolt face when shot is fired. MNs are not also exactly known for having perfectly square lugs, so it adds to the issue of having bolt head "jammed".
So, the simple and cheap procedure to get rid of this issue is as follows:

1. Chamber and cartridges must be always dry - clean well and wipe out any oil/grease before use.
2. If using steel cased ammo, light polishing of the chamber may be a good idea. But it's not a good idea for brass cartridges, as such polishing increases friction and may cause some extraction problems with brass...
3. Avoid hot loaded machine gun ammo, particularly the ammo with heavy bullets.

If possible, make sure bolt head lugs are square to the mating receiver surfaces, some lapping may help. For the same reason, it's better to have bolt and receiver with original matching numbers.

Best milsurplus ammo, in my opinion, for use in "average" MN is LPS - steel lacquered case with 147 gr. bullet. I specifically like the one made in Hungary - proved to be not just trouble free in general, but also decently accurate and 100% reliable.

 

[Lions8]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

kortik-
Thank you that was very informational! As stated..I'm fairly new to bolt guns in general..more specifically older ones like the MN..but I am very willing to learn..and all your guy's information has been great! I'm gonna look into the ammo you mentioned and also clean around the chamber and bolt some more.

JC

 

[Joop]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is one more thing some people seems to be confused about - lacquer coating "melting and sticking". It has been proven over 50-60(?) years and billions of rounds fired thru various weapons, including really hot machine guns, that this is not a case. It does not melt. In fact, it was formulated to reduce friction and help to extract spent cartridges from, let's say, high cycle firing weapons which generate lots of heat.</div></div>

What's your source for this information?

 

[tomme boy]

Re: Mosin Nagant Bolt

The cases themselves are the problem. They are not as elastic as brass. When fired, the case expands to seal the chamber.

Now here is the real problem. The case does NOT spring back to a smaller size like a brass case will. The steel case is wedged to the chamber walls. Once you understand this, everything about all steel cases getting jammed in a chamber makes sence. Kind of funny as I have shoot some of the Czeck silver tip from one year and it does it. Change to a differant year and it does not do it. The Czeck ST has been the worste ammo for sticking.

I have been telling people this for about 10 years and some are starting to finally listen. The so called lacqure is not a problem.