PRS Talk Movers on PRS stages

[Mordamer]

I have yet to shoot a match with movers. I have a few questions for you more experienced folks.

1. Are you given information on how fast the movers are moving perpendicular to the firing location? If not, what is a best practice for determining your initial lead hold?

2. Please give me some helpful tips for shooting a mover stage.


Thanks.

 

[Carl_Ross]

1. Usually but not always. In the matches I’ve shot there are more 3 mph movers than not. If you want to get fancy you could measure the speed with a stopwatch and an optic with a reticle. On a 3 mph mover, 1.5 mils is a pretty good first pitch, maybe 1.2 or 1.3 if you’re near the velocity limit.

2. I prefer “ambush” to “tracking”. Ambush being where you have the crosshairs stationary and wait for the target to cross your lead point to break the shot. I also like to dial my wind out so that I have one hold for both directions. However, if you misdial or the wind shifts it can bite you.

 

[MountainHunter]

I've got to shoot a mover 4 times now, all at matches this year. 1st one I didn't zero my wind and struggled with different holds for each direction, got 2 impacts I think. 2nd one had no wind to speak of, still sucked but managed 7 impacts. 3rd and 4th, I tried zeroing my wind, guessed wrong and struggled to get more than a couple hits each.

My plan for the next mover I shoot will be to dial what I think my wind will be before I shoot the confirm target. If I'm not centered up on the confirm, dial the correction and probably burn another round on the confirm before engaging the mover. That way I'm not getting lost in my wind/lead like I did last time and my lead will be the same each way like Carl said.

The last mover I shot was at 540, lead for my 6.5 creed shooting 140 ELD's around 2750 was 1.8 mils. Mover seemed to be about 3.5 mph

 

[ddavis]

Between 1.5-2 mils seems to be a pretty standard hold and a good starting point. As stated above, dial your best guess at wind.

 

[LH_Gina]

Targets used for movers at matches are usually at least a .5 mil wide. Even if you SWAG for wind each direction, if you're consistent with your trigger pull, you should get some hits. I generally start with a 1.5 mil lead and base my second shot on what I see. I also ambush because I find too much wobble to control when I track. Most movers at matches are 3mph, so whatever your lead ends up being it'll probably be the same regardless of target distance. It'll look a whole lot faster at 100 yards than it will at 650 yards though. A super smart dude told me a long time ago that mover leads are based more on the shooters reaction time. In other words if you're fast your lead may be less and if you have a slow reaction time, it'll be longer. There are training courses that include movers (Rifles Only and K&M for sure, most likely a few others too). Once you figure out what you're doing they're a blast to shoot.

 

[djarecke]

I have yet to shoot a match with movers. I have a few questions for you more experienced folks.

1. Are you given information on how fast the movers are moving perpendicular to the firing location? If not, what is a best practice for determining your initial lead hold?

2. Please give me some helpful tips for shooting a mover stage.


Thanks.

Many matches allow the shooter a train up day to shoot the mover the day before a match, and I've found that this is money well-spent. In fact, I brought my trainer rifle to shoot the mover so I could really get it dialed. Here are my tips:

1. Dial your wind hold on the windage dial in your optic. This way, once you establish a lead, it should be the same for the mover in both directions.

2. Most people find that ambushing the target works best, and this is what I'd recommend. Wait for the mover to hit a predetermined mark in your optic, and fire. Make sure you're not jumping the gun because you're excited about shooting a timed stage. Take your time and remember your fundamentals.

The next match with a mover should be Heat Stroke, but if you're shooting the Gap Grind, I'd be happy to meet you on the line and help get you squared away on the train up day. I think you'll find once you get it down, the most difficult part is controlling your smile as you keep hitting that moving target!!!

 

[Mordamer]

I'm going to the Heatstroke. I figured they would have a mover. Should be fun.

 

[Sheldon N]

I do the math/calcuation method. Mil the end points of the mover with a scope or reticle in your rangefinder. Time the mover from end to end with a stopwatch. Divide total mils by total seconds to get the mover speed in Mils/Sec. Then multiply that mils/sec number by the time of flight of your bullet from your ballistics chart, for the given range. That is your exact lead to center of plate. I dial out the wind with my best guess, then if it picks up or lets off I just favor left or favor right with where I break the shot, as though I was making corrections on a static plate. Mentally that's easier for me than adding to your lead in one direction then subtracting from your lead in other. I also agree with the ambush method, seems to work best for me.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I'm going to the Heatstroke. I figured they would have a mover. Should be fun.

unless they change the speed from the finale that was held there in January (which i doubt because guys who had shot that range before said its always the same speed)...it should be 1.3-1.8mils depending on 6/6.5 and your reaction speed

 

[Mordamer]

I do the math/calcuation method. Mil the end points of the mover with a scope or reticle in your rangefinder. Time the mover from end to end with a stopwatch. Divide total mils by total seconds to get the mover speed in Mils/Sec. Then multiply that mils/sec number by the time of flight of your bullet from your ballistics chart, for the given range. That is your exact lead to center of plate. I dial out the wind with my best guess, then if it picks up or lets off I just favor left or favor right with where I break the shot, as though I was making corrections on a static plate. Mentally that's easier for me than adding to your lead in one direction then subtracting from your lead in other. I also agree with the ambush method, seems to work best for me.

Thanks. Strelok Pro will calculate lead if target speed is input in mils/sec. I'll probably use your method at the Heatstroke open.

 

[SRW]

I shot my first match this weekend and there was a mover. 8" plate at 425 yards. I had read this before the weekend and the strategies helped. I was planning on dialing for wind but fortunately it was blowing directly in our face. A few other shooters went before me and said it was a .5 mil lead so that's what I used and got 5/5 hits. It was my best stage and a ton of fun.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I shot my first match this weekend and there was a mover. 8" plate at 425 yards. I had read this before the weekend and the strategies helped. I was planning on dialing for wind but fortunately it was blowing directly in our face. A few other shooters went before me and said it was a .5 mil lead so that's what I used and got 5/5 hits. It was my best stage and a ton of fun.

guessing you shot the ATX precision club match?

i was there also, we did some milling on the mover and got 2mils/2sec, which gave a ~.5mil lead with 6/6.5s...doing some math it came out around .85mph...worked out great for our group also

we asked the guy running the stage if he knew how fast it was going after we shot, and he said it should have been around .7-.8mph, so we were close

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Easiest way is to do it is a fast five count. So...see how far the target moves as you count 1,2,3,4,5. That should be 1 second. Use that as your base hold and modify that hold based on the actual flight time of the bullet.

Also, 2mph is about 3ft per second, and 1 full stride is about 3 ft.

 

[SRW]

guessing you shot the ATX precision club match?

i was there also, we did some milling on the mover and got 2mils/2sec, which gave a ~.5mil lead with 6/6.5s...doing some math it came out around .85mph...worked out great for our group also

we asked the guy running the stage if he knew how fast it was going after we shot, and he said it should have been around .7-.8mph, so we were close

That's it! I was shooting a 308 and I would squeeze just as the plate broke my .5 mil mark. Aside from the rain, that was a fun match. I definitely have a lot to learn and practice on but I'll be back!

 

[Rob01]

I have yet to shoot a match with movers. I have a few questions for you more experienced folks.

1. Are you given information on how fast the movers are moving perpendicular to the firing location? If not, what is a best practice for determining your initial lead hold?

2. Please give me some helpful tips for shooting a mover stage.


Thanks.

Sometimes they will and sometimes not. Have shot some slower movers and some faster ones from 50 yards out to 800 yards. You got to be able to see a miss if possible and remember that if the berm behind is farther than a couple yards that that impact may not help you much as the bullet is still traveling as the mover is too. I usually just look at the mover and try to figure speed and adjust my hold accordingly before shooting and then adjust on the fly after first shot.

I run my data at a 2mph walking man speed and adjust off what I see in the mover for the hold. The hold for 2mph is usually 1.1-1.4 mils depending on the range but you also have to remember the wind. It doesn't go away. I have shot movers where I had a negative lead actually holding behind the mover as the wind was pushing me in front for the lead. Some people dial on their wind call so they can use the same hold no matter which way the mover is going. That is another part with wind in that if you have a mover moving right and then left you will have a different hold both ways if you are holding your wind with your mover hold.

When taking the shot on a mover you need to be fast on the trigger. Break the shot fast but don't slap the trigger when the mover is in the reticle at your mover hold. It sucks as most of the time the only place you will shoot a mover is at a match so no real time to practice but do your best.

 

[Mordamer]

There was one mover stage at the Heatstroke open this last weekend. I measured the speed with a mil reticle while preparing for the stage. I twice measure that it moved 10 mils in 2.3 seconds. That comes out to 4.35 mils/sec. Strelok Pro gave me a lead of 1.8 mils. I dialed my wind out and hit the mover 7 out of 9 shots holding 1.8 mils. The shots I missed were touched off with bad timing.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[BGE541]

D/VxS=Full Value Lead

 

[Deleted member 113831]

There was one mover stage at the Heatstroke open this last weekend. I measured the speed with a mil reticle while preparing for the stage. I twice measure that it moved 10 mils in 2.3 seconds. That comes out to 4.35 mils/sec. Strelok Pro gave me a lead of 1.8 mils. I dialed my wind out and hit the mover 7 out of 9 shots holding 1.8 mils. The shots I missed were touched off with bad timing.

Thanks for the help guys.

I'm curious about how you did this. This is not a troll or making fun, it's a serious question.

Did you time the total length of the run, and then measure it in the reticle? Or did you set the rifle up steady enough that you were able to look through the scope while using some kind of stopwatch? or did you get someone to time for you while you called out the start and stop point?

 

[Mordamer]

I'm curious about how you did this. This is not a troll or making fun, it's a serious question.

Did you time the total length of the run, and then measure it in the reticle? Or did you set the rifle up steady enough that you were able to look through the scope while using some kind of stopwatch? or did you get someone to time for you while you called out the start and stop point?

Spotting scope has 10 mils on the horizontal reticle. Stop watch on my phone said 2.3 seconds for it to cross 10 mils. 10 mils divided by 2.3 seconds is 4.35 mils per second.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Spotting scope has 10 mils on the horizontal reticle. Stop watch on my phone said 2.3 seconds for it to cross 10 mils. 10 mils divided by 2.3 seconds is 4.35 mils per second.

Thanks, I didn't consider the spotting scope having the reticle.

 

[craigos]

I do the math/calcuation method. Mil the end points of the mover with a scope or reticle in your rangefinder. Time the mover from end to end with a stopwatch. Divide total mils by total seconds to get the mover speed in Mils/Sec. Then multiply that mils/sec number by the time of flight of your bullet from your ballistics chart, for the given range. That is your exact lead to center of plate. I dial out the wind with my best guess, then if it picks up or lets off I just favor left or favor right with where I break the shot, as though I was making corrections on a static plate. Mentally that's easier for me than adding to your lead in one direction then subtracting from your lead in other. I also agree with the ambush method, seems to work best for me.

Your kestrel has a function to time , and determine speed of a moving target. Saterlee showed us during a class 2 years ago --- enter how many mils the target moved in how many seconds , with range, and bam the kestrel tells you. Then you enter the width of the target and it tells you how many mils to lead the target - was pretty simple.

 

[northeastgunfighter]

I have yet to shoot a match with movers. I have a few questions for you more experienced folks.

1. Are you given information on how fast the movers are moving perpendicular to the firing location? If not, what is a best practice for determining your initial lead hold?

2. Please give me some helpful tips for shooting a mover stage.


Thanks.

Movers are fun. Start with a 1.5 ish hold. Remember WAAS - with wind add, against wind subtract.
Formula for movers:

Speed of TGT in mils X time of flight = leading edge hold
Then WAAS wind call = impacts.

For formula of inch lead 1X1000/ rangeX7 = inches of lead. Example:

1/100X200X7= 21” lead. Then convert to m/ and WAAS

 

[northeastgunfighter]

For formula of inch lead 1/100/ rangeX7 = inches of lead. Example:

1/100X200X7= 21” lead. Then convert to m/ and WAAS[/QUOTE]

 

[northeastgunfighter]

I have yet to shoot a match with movers. I have a few questions for you more experienced folks.

1. Are you given information on how fast the movers are moving perpendicular to the firing location? If not, what is a best practice for determining your initial lead hold?

2. Please give me some helpful tips for shooting a mover stage.


Thanks.

Ignore my typos on my last posts.

The CORRECT formulas are

1. Speed of TGT in mils X time of flight = leading edge hold

Then

WAAS (add wind call to leading edge if TGT is moving with wind OR subtract wind call of target is going against wind)


2. Inches lead formula

1/100 X range X 7 = inch lead. Then convert to mils, then WAAS

Example: 1/100 X 200 X 7 = 14” lead.

 

[Sheldon N]

Man, I don't think any of that is correct. Mils is not a speed. And your "inches" formula has no reference to speed. Are you just suppose to hold the same no matter how fast the mover is going?

 

[JayB]

Man, I don't think any of that is correct. Mils is not a speed. And your "inches" formula has no reference to speed. Are you just suppose to hold the same no matter how fast the mover is going?

MILS is not a speed, but MILS/sec is a speed.

Example: target moved 20 mils in 5.4 seconds, and your bullet travel time is 0.6 second, then 20 x 0.6 / 5.4 = 2.2 MIL. Just an example

 

[308pirate]

Movers are fun. Start with a 1.5 ish hold. Remember WAAS - with wind add, against wind subtract.
Formula for movers:

Speed of TGT in mils X time of flight = leading edge hold
Then WAAS wind call = impacts.

For formula of inch lead 1X1000/ rangeX7 = inches of lead. Example:

1/100X200X7= 21” lead. Then convert to m/ and WAAS

You are overcomplicating this

The correct formula is: Speed of target in MILS/SECOND x time of flight in SECONDS = lead in MILS. Add/substract wind correction in MILS. Done.

Absolutely zero need to include inches in this conversation.

 

[Sheldon N]

MILS is not a speed, but MILS/sec is a speed.

Example: target moved 20 mils in 5.4 seconds, and your bullet travel time is 0.6 second, then 20 x 0.6 / 5.4 = 2.2 MIL. Just an example

Yep, that's what I said in my earlier post back in June. And it's a lead to center of plate, not edge of plate as indicated by northeastgunfighter. You might need to time and start the pull early so reaction allows for the shot to actually break at the center of plate, but the math works out to a center of plate offset.

And just dial wind, simpler than any sort of mental math WAAS complications.

 

[northeastgunfighter]

Yep, that's what I said in my earlier post back in June. And it's a lead to center of plate, not edge of plate as indicated by northeastgunfighter. You might need to time and start the pull early so reaction allows for the shot to actually break at the center of plate, but the math works out to a center of plate offset.

And just dial wind, simpler than any sort of mental math WAAS complications.

You’re correct on the POI. However, you will need to WAAS when the wind is behind 10mph. The higher the wind the more you need to do it. You can’t just dial and call it day.

 

[Sheldon N]

You’re correct on the POI. However, you will need to WAAS when the wind is behind 10mph. The higher the wind the more you need to do it. You can’t just dial and call it day.

Sure you can. Wind is a steady left 35mph? Dial your left wind 35mph dope and shoot the mover, same lead both directions. Gets more complicated if the wind is changing but the principle is the same.

 

[Rob01]

Lol all that is too much thinking. Run your Ballistics with a 2mph lead and adjust off that for differing target speed. Not going to be doing that much math at a match.

 

[northeastgunfighter]

Lol all that is too much thinking. Run your Ballistics with a 2mph lead and adjust off that for differing target speed. Not going to be doing that much math at a match.

It’s not a lot of math. ??‍

 

[Rob01]

It's a whole hell of a lot more than I do for movers.

 

[LH_Gina]

I agree with @Rob01. I'm a math retard yet somehow manage to clean most mover stages by using the same starting lead adjusted for wind.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Bring your semi auto it makes them a lot easier or at least quicker

 

[308pirate]

you will need to WAAS when the wind is behind 10mph. The higher the wind the more you need to do it. You can’t just dial and call it day.

Wrong again

 

[davsco]

ok, not fully awake yet, but if you have 5mph mover at 600 yds, and 5mph wind in same direction, could you just dial or hold your 10mph wind dope for 600 yds and get hits? of course if you're not given the mover speed, it's a little more complicated.

 

[morganlamprecht]

ok, not fully awake yet, but if you have 5mph mover at 600 yds, and 5mph wind in same direction, could you just dial or hold your 10mph wind dope for 600 yds and get hits? of course if you're not given the mover speed, it's a little more complicated.

if im understanding your question right, no

hold for a 5mph mover is ~3.1mil...hold for a 10mph wind @ 600 would be around 1mil (6/6.5s)...the 5mph mover hold (+/- 5mph wind) would be 3.7 to 2.6

 

[308pirate]

ok, not fully awake yet, but if you have 5mph mover at 600 yds, and 5mph wind in same direction, could you just dial or hold your 10mph wind dope for 600 yds and get hits? .

No. Target speed does not act on the bullet like wind does. At 600 yds a typical 308 Win match bullet needs .7 mils windage for a 5 mph full value wind but needs 3.4 mils of lead for a target moving at 5 mph 90 degrees to the line of fire.

And you would miss ahead if you added your windage to your lead when firing on a target moving downwind.

Example (this is from JBL for my 308 load):
Range to target 600 yds
Target moving left to right at 5 mph
Wind from left to right at 5 mph
Wind correction for a L - R 5 mph wind: .7 mils LEFT
Lead for a target moving L - R at 5 mph at 600 yds: 3.4 mils RIGHT

Firing solutions
If you dial for wind
Dial left .7 mils on turret, hold 3.4 mils right of target and fire

If you hold for wind
3.4 mils right lead + .7 mils left wind = 2.7 mils right
Hold 2.7 mils right of target and fire


Same as above but with a 5 mph R to L wind:
If you dial for wind
Dial right .7 mils on turret, hold 3.4 mils right of target and fire

If you hold for wind
3.4 mils right lead + .7 mils right wind = hold 4.1 mils right of target and fire

 

[davsco]

ok yeah i mis-worded my example. was thinking possibly that a L-R mover at 5mph (such that i would hit behind it if i didn't dial or hold), with a L-R wind at 5mph (such that i would hit ahead of it if i didn't dial or hold) would cancel each other out such that i'd just aim at the target.

clearly from the examples above and me running this in nightforce exbal, that is not the case, with the moving target needing way more lead than the equivalent wind speed would. still trying to wrap my head around the thought process though.

 

[morganlamprecht]

ok yeah i mis-worded my example. was thinking possibly that a L-R mover at 5mph (such that i would hit behind it if i didn't dial or hold), with a L-R wind at 5mph (such that i would hit ahead of it if i didn't dial or hold) would cancel each other out such that i'd just aim at the target.

clearly from the examples above and me running this in nightforce exbal, that is not the case, with the moving target needing way more lead than the equivalent wind speed would. still trying to wrap my head around the thought process though.

correct, you can for sure have negative lead or no lead, but the winds have to be much higher than target speed...i was shooting 53 grain vmax (223) @ 400 yds at RO one day...i dont remember the exact values now, but the wind was like 15-20 mph, and my hold on the mover was trailing edge, going with the wind

 

[Rob01]

ok yeah i mis-worded my example. was thinking possibly that a L-R mover at 5mph (such that i would hit behind it if i didn't dial or hold), with a L-R wind at 5mph (such that i would hit ahead of it if i didn't dial or hold) would cancel each other out such that i'd just aim at the target.

clearly from the examples above and me running this in nightforce exbal, that is not the case, with the moving target needing way more lead than the equivalent wind speed would. still trying to wrap my head around the thought process though.

Don't over think it. Figure your wind and figure your mover hold and just combine them. It's simple. You have a 1.2 mil lead and a 2 mil wind hold from 9 o'clock. That would be a negative .8 mil trail when it was traveling from left to right with the wind and when going into the wind from right to left you need the 2 mils of wind and then the 1.2 mils of hold so would be a 3.2 mil lead. It's not overly hard but most don;t get to practice it and over complicate it in their minds. Also negative leads/trails happen more than you would think. Have done it a lot of times with longer movers like 500-800 yards when the wind is moving.

You do have to be fast and smooth on the trigger so you break the shots where you need to without jerking the trigger. Also making fast corrections is needed if your first approximation was off. Remember the distance from the mover to the back stop matters too as you might see what appears to be the bullet hitting behind the target when it is missing in front and the target still moving and you see the impact well behind if the back stop is far back.

 

[davsco]

so do most just dial for wind and mover lead together? i almost always hold for wind, but not being centered in the crosshairs on a moving target seems like it might be a little busy (eg i have to find and stay five hash marks right on a moving target), especially then if you are adjusting your hold on the fly if you miss.

 

[Rob01]

I hold my wind for shots and movers but know people who dial on wind for movers. Both work with practice.

 

[Sheldon N]

so do most just dial for wind and mover lead together? i almost always hold for wind, but not being centered in the crosshairs on a moving target seems like it might be a little busy (eg i have to find and stay five hash marks right on a moving target), especially then if you are adjusting your hold on the fly if you miss.

Most all the competitors I shoot with dial for wind on a mover. That allows you to only have to think about one number for hold-offs, regardless of which direction the mover is traveling.

If the wind picks up or lets off while you are shooting and you are using mental math to figure out lead from the left vs lead from the right it gets more complicated since you have to add from one and subtract from the other, and know which way to go.

If you dial wind and it changes while you are shooting, you can keep the same lead number but change where you break the shot at. For example, if it's exactly a 1 mil lead to center when you start out, but the wind picks up you would keep that 1 mil lead but start to break the shot on the upwind side of the plate, just like holding wind normally.

 

[kthomas]

Shooting movers is one of the only times I would advocate dialing wind.

 

[davsco]

Most all the competitors I shoot with dial for wind on a mover. That allows you to only have to think about one number for hold-offs, regardless of which direction the mover is traveling.

yeah mine was a dumb question, given that movers typically go back, and forth... haven't shot one in a while so forgetting the nuances... dial for wind and then hold (for example) +2 or -2 depending which way it's moving.

 

[BGE541]

Just use the actual formula (D/VxS) the add or subtract wind hold depending on direction of engagement

Ex.

Figure out that your FV hold on the mover is 1.5 mils, your wind hold is .7mils L to R.

When it’s moving L hold .8, when it’s moving R to L hold 2.2.
For me it’s easier to ambush movers then try and walk with them...

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Just use the actual formula (D/VxS) the add or subtract wind hold depending on direction of engagement

Ex.

Figure out that your FV hold on the mover is 1.5 mils, your wind hold is .7mils L to R.

When it’s moving L hold .8, when it’s moving R to L hold 2.2.
For me it’s easier to ambush movers then try and walk with them...

You can do that 10 times alternating left and right side in 90 seconds?

 

[hic28]

Find your wind. Dial for it.

Find your lead, hold it.

This is the method I use and I cleaned the dual mover at the gunwerks match last month. Went 9/10 on the ELR mover at the NF ELR in Wyoming the month before. It works, why over complicate it?