Moving : Helena, MT

[lonegunman762x51]

Comeon! You're in Montana. They have Democrats, but I doubt they're the fucking rabid, racist, communist, totalitarian motherfuckingcunts they are in most of the country.

You would be totally mistaken. Montana is stuffed with tens of thousands of hardcore anti-gun, tax and spend, raging violent leftists. The cities are packed with every creepy gender, degenerates and dope smokers. In the Pacific Northwest every city has a communist newspaper published weekly, with all sorts of leftist tripe, lists of protests and the leftists are going for gun bans, anti-hunting, anti-private property and so forth and so on.

I was in Missoula not long ago and the fight was to legalize trespassing, the communists call it crap like, "the right to wander". They want to harass ranchers, harass farm animals, use private property for raves, dope grows, orgies as well as hobo camps and squats. 5 or 10 acres near Helena is going to be as expensive as 10 acres in Seattle pretty soon.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Well.
Let’s just say under 800k but hell go even a mil.

Them tell me where these people make that kinda money.

"Those People" are not making that kind of money.... They have enough cash to make a down payment... Few have any money at all.... We saw this during the housing boom of the 1980's.... Real Estate runs in cycles. You are witnessing the top of the cycle. Montana is very familiar with those cycles... Only a few of the custom log home builders survived the down turn of the late 80's.... You are witnessing people locking in low interest home loans before the interest rates sky rocket...

Keep us posted.

 

[Choid]

"Those People" are not making that kind of money.... They have enough cash to make a down payment... Few have any money at all.... We saw this during the housing boom of the 1980's.... Real Estate runs in cycles. You are witnessing the top of the cycle. Montana is very familiar with those cycles... Only a few of the custom log home builders survived the down turn of the late 80's.... You are witnessing people locking in low interest home loans before the interest rates sky rocket...

Keep us posted.

Gosh, I wish I were smart enough to know when the tops and bottoms of cycles were. But if this is the top, it has been a short cycle, as things were really slow from '06-'18 or so. They just picked up recently outside of Missoula and Bozeman.

 

[Waorani]

Really, no one?

 

[NiteQwill]

Well.
Let’s just say under 800k but hell go even a mil.

Them tell me where these people make that kinda money.

It's not uncommon. A lot of Californians sell their house for more than a million and then move to places like Idaho and Montana. Good buddy (don't worry, he is pro-2A) sold a house he bought for foreclosure in 2009 for $225k in California, a few fixings 11 years later, recently sold it for $1.12 mil. Moved outside of Bozeman. It's not uncommon. The threat is people moving, and bringing their anti-freedom values with them.

 

[7.62willdo]

Using traditional, geosynchronous satellites, you are going to have latency that makes VoIP communication painful to useless. This delay is caused by the distance to and from the satellite. (distance/speed of light = delay).
Elon Musk is in the process of releasing thousands of Lower Earth Orbit satellites that should alleviate this problem by reducing the distance but the whole thing is not ready "out of the box".
Your best bet would be 4G/5G or a local, long-range WIFI provider.

Would some smart guy explaine to this idiot (me) how those low earth orbit
satellite stay in low earth orbit? I thought all low earth orbits degrade......

 

[Mike Casselton]

Well.
Let’s just say under 800k but hell go even a mil.

Them tell me where these people make that kinda money.

California.
They sell their 875sq ft house on .19 acre for $985,000 and buy up the good states so they can fuck them up next.

New Yorkers do that down here.

 

[Choid]

California.
They sell their 875sq ft house on .19 acre for $985,000 and buy up the good states so they can fuck them up next.

New Yorkers do that down here.

I hear the sentiment, but in my experience, Californians have not brought their Ds to Montana. You do get a lot of left wing Idahoans, Wyomans, Dakotans etc who want to come to the more "woke" state of Montana than stay in their own.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I hear the sentiment, but in my experience, Californians have not brought their Ds to Montana. You do get a lot of left wing Idahoans, Wyomans, Dakotans etc who want to come to the more "woke" state of Montana than stay in their own.

That's because they went to those states first and claim that as their former home, when in fact they are CA, WA and OR grown.

BTDT with SD and ID. Seen it too many times.

 

[eca7891]

I hear the sentiment, but in my experience, Californians have not brought their Ds to Montana. You do get a lot of left wing Idahoans, Wyomans, Dakotans etc who want to come to the more "woke" state of Montana than stay in their own.

That kinda surprised me that WY, ID AND SD move to MT for a woke state.

Learning a lot in this thread.

 

[Choid]

That kinda surprised me that WY, ID AND SD move to MT for a woke state.

Learning a lot in this thread.

MT is considerably less conservative on social issues than the states around it. Not necessarily policy wise, but sentiment wise. And Missoula is far more liberal than Cheyenne or whatever city they have in SD. I wouldn't buy the above conspiracy that people are moving from CA to SD and then to Montana because they are really libs. It doesn't make sense because no liberal would bother moving to South Dakota from California in the first place if MT was an option.

I'd say Montana is more pluralistic, and for a very white place, it is not that conservative, but it is still a very conservative state in the broader sense.

 

[Mike Casselton]

MT is considerably less conservative on social issues than the states around it. Not necessarily policy wise, but sentiment wise. And Missoula is far more liberal than Cheyenne or whatever city they have in SD. I wouldn't buy the above conspiracy that people are moving from CA to SD and then to Montana because they are really libs. It doesn't make sense because no liberal would bother moving to South Dakota from California in the first place if MT was an option.

I'd say Montana is more pluralistic, and for a very white place, it is not that conservative, but it is still a very conservative state in the broader sense.

Clearly, you've never lived in SD.
Conspiracy. I like that.

 

[Choid]

Clearly, you've never lived in SD.
Conspiracy. I like that.

I like SD just fine. I am just saying that "I am dying to move to South Dakota" is not something you hear in general conversation in California, while "I'm dying to move to Montana" is.

By conspiracy I mean a cabal of Californians moving to Montana via South Dakota to hide their original origins. Conspiracy is not limited to Russian collusion and hacked voting machines. I do swear that every third disgruntled twenty year old I see in Missoula moved there to escape South Dakota. I think we get all of the weirdos from the various western states.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Probably moving from Sioux Falls.

I lived in Western SD for almost 13 yrs. There are a shit ton of CA migrants that moved there to escape the high cost of living.
What you're experiencing is probably their fucked up offspring.

 

[eca7891]

So I was asked my option on the Helena area.

As far as topography, I really like it. The surrounding mountains are beautiful. Yet city itself does not seem too big or too small. It’s larger than the one we come from but not near the size of Billings or say Minneapolis. It offers multiple big box hardware stores, grocery stores and a variety of restaurants. Seems like it doesn’t take much work to get away from the “ metro” area. Oddly it seems to have a lot of mini storage sites.

The city seems to have a bit of a personality crisis. VERY nice homes right next to the mobile homes. An extremely poor looking housing area coming into town from the south. I’m sure this comes from a variety of reasons converging.

Overall not a place I would say to avoid. I would consider living around or not far from Helena.

Take all this with a grain of salt as we have been here less than a day.

There was only one place that would meet what we are looking for but at 4K+ sq ft it’s way more house than what we need and more than I would prefer to spend.

 

[SouthFork]

Honestly here is the real issue and it sucks.

I live in Montana, in 2012 I bought the house I live in now. It was a foreclosure. Came with 5.5acres a house and a big shop. Got the place for 250k. I was working then and between us we scraped the down payment together and got the place. Remodeled the whole place and slowly still make the property better and better each year. Montana wages are by no means fantastic. Before I owned my own company wages weren’t great. But we got by.

Since I have my own construction company now wages are better, wife got a better job etc so we are doing well.

BUT even though we are doing well we couldn’t afford the same house today.

Prices are going up so much, locals who have kids who are looking for a house can’t afford to buy one. Think someone in there mid to late 20s can afford 400-500k?? Lots of Montana is based on the tourism industry now, you have manufacturing etc as well but you aren’t getting 6 figure incomes. Houses are selling for the 400-500k for cash. A single wide trailer on a small lot is 225k. I saw another single wide on 1.75 acres on the market for 350k.

Even if a couple are making 20 an hour each, they still can’t afford a mortgage on 500k. Rent is through the roof. A guy who works with me is paying $1400 a month rent. That’s more than I paid for my first or second mortgage.

He can’t buy a home even though he is prequaled because stuff is getting sold for Cash and sellers don’t even want to think about dealing with a buyer who has a prequal letter.

Locals can’t afford to live in their hometowns. We have a huge shortage of labor but people can’t find homes or even rentals they can afford to work at those jobs. Lots of Montana still pays $10 to $15 an hour for service jobs. Businesses have been closing a few days a week or temporarily because they can’t find help.

I don’t have the answers just letting you all know what’s going on up here. Montana is a great place TO VISIT if you come here leave your waiter or waitress a little bit extra on the tip as they need the extra change just to pay the rent. After you have a great time. Go back home.

 

[SouthFork]

So I was asked my option on the Helena area.

As far as topography, I really like it. The surrounding mountains are beautiful. Yet city itself does not seem too big or too small. It’s larger than the one we come from but not near the size of Billings or say Minneapolis. It offers multiple big box hardware stores, grocery stores and a variety of restaurants. Seems like it doesn’t take much work to get away from the “ metro” area. Oddly it seems to have a lot of mini storage sites.

The city seems to have a bit of a personality crisis. VERY nice homes right next to the mobile homes. An extremely poor looking housing area coming into town from the south. I’m sure this comes from a variety of reasons converging.

Overall not a place I would say to avoid. I would consider living around or not far from Helena.

Take all this with a grain of salt as we have been here less than a day.

There was only one place that would meet what we are looking for but at 4K+ sq ft it’s way more house than what we need and more than I would prefer to spend.

That’s what Montana is. You will see single wides next to nice house. People want to be outside. They like there 4 wheelers, dirt bikes, boats, rafts, and sleds for the winter. Bet one of those single wides had a 12k Turboed Sled parked in the yard or a nice drift boat. If you want a place that tells you how long your grass should be find a gated community. Some of the nicest people you find will be living in those mobiles. You will find some special ones as well. MT is it’s own deal.

 

[eca7891]

I was not trying to ruffle any feathers, just giving a non bias assessment of what I am seeing.

I saw a “ hungry vet “ pan handling and a hippy on an electric bike.

Those are two of the more out of the ordinary things I have seen.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

I was not trying to ruffle any feathers, just giving a non bias assessment of what I am seeing.

I saw a “ hungry vet “ pan handling and a hippy on an electric bike.

Those are two of the more out of the ordinary things I have seen.

You are not ruffling and feathers.... It is what it is..... Some folks in Montana "Can't see the forest for the trees". That phenomenon is the same everywhere I have traveled / worked / lived. Your perspective is different since you don't live here. Please, continue your reports.

 

[Choid]

I was not trying to ruffle any feathers, just giving a non bias assessment of what I am seeing.

I saw a “ hungry vet “ pan handling and a hippy on an electric bike.

Those are two of the more out of the ordinary things I have seen.

Your assessments are right on, in my experience.

 

[eca7891]

So we have the entire day to wander around.

Any suggestions?

 

[Choid]

So we have the entire day to wander around.

Any suggestions?

lol. I don't think I've ever spent an entire day in a city in Montana. If it were more melted, I'd say go hiking. Maybe check out areas to the south of Helena and see how far you'd be willing to go out of town. Or out toward Lincoln, though I can't stand the place myself.

 

[shields shtr]

You are fairly close to what I like to call "Real Montana", and the only hint I would be willing to give you is that it isn't south. Try a drive in some other directions...and be prepared to hold onto your hat.

 

[eca7891]

There was some land around cascade I wanted to look at.
We may swing by that and hit Lincoln area.

Updates to follow.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

So we have the entire day to wander around.

Any suggestions?

Go to Whitefish........ check out the new area of Kalispell between Whitefish and Kalispell.... All of the big box stores are there...

That is a fun trip.

 

[eca7891]

Go to Whitefish........ check out the new area of Kalispell between Whitefish and Kalispell.... All of the big box stores are there...

That is a fun trip.

We have a 3 week trip scheduled in June to that area.

So for today’s journey we went to Wolf Creek and around Cascade. OUT STANDING drive. We double backed and went to Lincoln. Lincoln seemed like a tourist area. Maybe a hub for snowmobiling? Pretty area. But not for us.

Then my wife had the idea that we should drive to Missoula...

So we did.

Beautiful drive right up until we went into Missoula. You could feel the leftist liberalism just oozing. We grabbed lunch and bailed. BIG HARD NO on that area. Had the feel of a Denver or Boulder.

 

[Choid]

You are fairly close to what I like to call "Real Montana", and the only hint I would be willing to give you is that it isn't south. Try a drive in some other directions...and be prepared to hold onto your hat.

What would you consider real Montana near there? I think the Elkhorns are a nice drive. And Clancy is as good a place as any to raise a family. I'm out 12 and 141 from Helena, which is as nowhere as it gets in the western part of the state.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

We have a 3 week trip scheduled in June to that area.

So for today’s journey we went to Wolf Creek and around Cascade. OUT STANDING drive. We double backed and went to Lincoln. Lincoln seemed like a tourist area. Maybe a hub for snowmobiling? Pretty area. But not for us.

Then my wife had the idea that we should drive to Missoula...

So we did.

Beautiful drive right up until we went into Missoula. You could feel the leftist liberalism just oozing. We grabbed lunch and bailed. BIG HARD NO on that area. Had the feel of a Denver or Boulder.

Your description of Missoula is accurate.... I'm in and out quickly in the early morning when I get supplies in Missoula... Folks from as far south as Salmon, ID have to travel to Zootown since there are no other options for shopping at big box stores as well as major medical needs... Even at that, Missoula still does not meet the needs for many medical procedures and patients must go to Spokane or Seattle...

Montana Cities by Population (2024)

Get a list of Montana cities by population based on Census 2023 data.

www.montana-demographics.com

 

[Threerun]

Honestly here is the real issue and it sucks.

I live in Montana, in 2012 I bought the house I live in now. It was a foreclosure. Came with 5.5acres a house and a big shop. Got the place for 250k. I was working then and between us we scraped the down payment together and got the place. Remodeled the whole place and slowly still make the property better and better each year. Montana wages are by no means fantastic. Before I owned my own company wages weren’t great. But we got by.

Since I have my own construction company now wages are better, wife got a better job etc so we are doing well.

BUT even though we are doing well we couldn’t afford the same house today.

Prices are going up so much, locals who have kids who are looking for a house can’t afford to buy one. Think someone in there mid to late 20s can afford 400-500k?? Lots of Montana is based on the tourism industry now, you have manufacturing etc as well but you aren’t getting 6 figure incomes. Houses are selling for the 400-500k for cash. A single wide trailer on a small lot is 225k. I saw another single wide on 1.75 acres on the market for 350k.

Even if a couple are making 20 an hour each, they still can’t afford a mortgage on 500k. Rent is through the roof. A guy who works with me is paying $1400 a month rent. That’s more than I paid for my first or second mortgage.

He can’t buy a home even though he is prequaled because stuff is getting sold for Cash and sellers don’t even want to think about dealing with a buyer who has a prequal letter.

Locals can’t afford to live in their hometowns. We have a huge shortage of labor but people can’t find homes or even rentals they can afford to work at those jobs. Lots of Montana still pays $10 to $15 an hour for service jobs. Businesses have been closing a few days a week or temporarily because they can’t find help.

I don’t have the answers just letting you all know what’s going on up here. Montana is a great place TO VISIT if you come here leave your waiter or waitress a little bit extra on the tip as they need the extra change just to pay the rent. After you have a great time. Go back home.

If you're in construction you should be making bank right now. Christ I've been looking for somebody do some drywall work in a narrow skylight opening for a frekin' year. Everyone is too busy- booked solid.

And there are three places for sale up the hill from me (actually all under contract now). Neither of them 'special' at all. One is over $800,000, the other is around $650,000 and then there's a small parcel west down the crappiest road from those houses under contract for $129,000- less than 5 acres.

It's nuts. My house has jumped 100% in value since 2010. I've had people drive up my driveway while I'm working in the shop to ask if I'd sell. I'm like- "Do you see a fuckin for sale sign here?" GTFO

 

[eca7891]

Our house here in MN went from 365k to over 500k in 3 years. Nothing like out there thought.

I am having little hope that we find something.

I am in the middle of making some kitchen cabinets for a friend. After these are done it will be patching things up around here a coat of paint and hopefully a for sale sign.

 

[Bigfatcock]

The problem you will have with selling the house, is not being able to buy another without paying out the nutsack. Unless you want to live in the hood.

 

[mwc63]

I see this a lot. Montana/Wyoming is closed.

 

[Nodakplowboy]

The roads suck, the weather sucks, the hunting sucks, the people suck (if you're not from MT you won't be welcomed), the taxes suck, the restaurants suck.. Helena is not even in top 5,000 cities in which to live in the U.S.

I hear North Dakota is nice.

N. D. is full up, no vacancy. Sorry.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Watched a little 2 bedroom, corner lot house in Hamilton, MT for the past 3 months. Landlord moved the renters out, put some lipstick on a pig and it sold in 2 days.... Really small lot, probably a 75 year old house... Last year it looked like a $125k house to me. It sold this week for $255k.... Cash sale to an out of state buyer who never viewed the property.... With the onset of summer contractor / developers are knocking down old houses and putting up 3 - 4 shoe box houses on the same lot. Many are labeled as "Cottage Homes" in a "Pocket Community".... And the storage warehouses are being put up at a fast pace...

Interesting times.

 

[Bigfatcock]

As I said before, if you currently own a house and property, keep it. Find some good renters if you want to move elsewhere.

Between lack of supply, and cost of new builds, and corporations buying large blocks of homes to rent out, you will have a very hard time buying a house of similar quality for a similar price.

Unless you want to live in the hood...

I have been sitting in a goodly amount of cash waiting for the housing market to crash, but it hasn’t yet. Don’t know if it ever will at this point, but I’d like to add a couple more homes to my portfolio to generate more income.

I believe the only thing that will cause the housing market to correct will be $5+ gas again. I’d also like to buy a new F-250, but once again, not paying $50K+. Too much money in the system right now.

 

[chevy_man]

I’ll say this.

sone of the area give you the true definition of what exactly rural means.

We have 2 elementary age girls so something somewhat by a city would be considerably better for them.

Rural... you haven't found it yet.

Drive east. It's over 100 miles from my house to a Walmart. You're still in the populated area of the state there.

Go up by Shelby, Havre area and I'd bet you can find reasonable prices. The winter will remind you of MN but with more wind.


The last housing bubble killed Bozeman. People were going bankrupt left and right, as it reset the prices to about 1/2 within 2 years. I thought it was hilarious, as anyone could see it coming. There just isn't the job market and wages to support any of it.

 

[Choid]

Is this the rura-lympics? I have to drive 40 miles for gas, more for diesel, unless the bar, twenty miles away, happens to have a can under the counter.

 

[NiteQwill]

The last housing bubble killed Bozeman. People were going bankrupt left and right, as it reset the prices to about 1/2 within 2 years. I thought it was hilarious, as anyone could see it coming. There just isn't the job market and wages to support any of it.

Covid has changed that. The remote job industry has exploded and has no predictable end (if ever). When big money pays even bigger money to work remotely with the same productivity output (as certain studies even show MORE productivity when working from home), people will continue to move. Unless the Fed drastically increases interest rates to curb inflation the housing market will continue to rise.

Gasoline consumption is at an all time low (2019 was the peak then, 2020...), airlines just don't see business travelers anymore, and people have no reason to commute if they work from home.

 

[shields shtr]

Covid has changed that. The remote job industry has exploded and has no predictable end (if ever). When big money pays even bigger money to work remotely with the same productivity output (as certain studies even show MORE productivity when working from home), people will continue to move. Unless the Fed drastically increases interest rates to curb inflation the housing market will continue to rise.

I think you are right. I work in the construction field, and in the course of the year I have seen a drastic shift on the design side (Architects and Engineers) to a "remote" model in which they operate on shared screens and zoom calls. It fucking drives me crazy. I have always thought there was no better way to communicate with someone than being in the same room with them or talking face to face. This is just another nail in the coffin with regards to people being unable to communicate with one another face to face.

I would consider Helena the northern tip of the SW MT population boom and I think it is only a matter of time before the Gallatin Valley fills in and people just head that way. They just widened the highway between Helena and Bozeangeles, so the "scary road" factor is going away as well. I will say it was good while it lasted here, but more people doesn't yield the same experience it did back in the good ol days.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

I think you are right. I work in the construction field, and in the course of the year I have seen a drastic shift on the design side (Architects and Engineers) to a "remote" model in which they operate on shared screens and zoom calls. It fucking drives me crazy. I have always thought there was no better way to communicate with someone than being in the same room with them or talking face to face. This is just another nail in the coffin with regards to people being unable to communicate with one another face to face.

I would consider Helena the northern tip of the SW MT population boom and I think it is only a matter of time before the Gallatin Valley fills in and people just head that way. They just widened the highway between Helena and Bozeangeles, so the "scary road" factor is going away as well. I will say it was good while it lasted here, but more people doesn't yield the same experience it did back in the good ol days.

I follow your point about the "remote" Engineers and CAD Jockeys... I retired out of the Heavy Industrial Construction world. My best jobs were when we had onsite detailers (field draftsmen)... Worst was when the engineers and fab shop was 1,000 miles away. When the anchor bolts for a key column were an inch off, things just don't fit. Hard to make that point with a remote engineer. The coffin will weigh a ton with all of those nails in it.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Plenty of liberals in MT. The difference here, there is still a 'live and let live' attitude, for the most part.

To give you and idea, MT just voted to legalize rec marijuana. The govt is jumping through the hoops to facilitate it as we speak.

I lived here in the 1970s, as a teenager, small towns, or outside small towns in central and eastern MT.

After 25+ years in the Marines, retired here in 2004. It's different now. A lot more people nowadays....but that is the same everywhere. Still possible to escape though. Lots of public land to enjoy. We found a small acreage with a house about 20 miles east of Helena. Not bad drive to town, but town seems to be getting closer every year.

The backyard, on a breezy day,

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Montana Gov. Greg Gianforte has signed a bill into law that bans "sanctuary cities" in the state.

Gov. Gianforte Signs 'Sanctuary City' Ban

Montana Gov. Greg Gianforte has signed a bill into law that bans "sanctuary cities" in the state.The new law prohibits state agencies and local…

www.mtpr.org

 

[Choid]

Montana Gov. Greg Gianforte has signed a bill into law that bans "sanctuary cities" in the state.

Gov. Gianforte Signs 'Sanctuary City' Ban

Montana Gov. Greg Gianforte has signed a bill into law that bans "sanctuary cities" in the state.The new law prohibits state agencies and local…

www.mtpr.org

Missoula and Bozeman hardest hit. I bet Missoula wishes an illegal immigrant would want to move there just so they could be a sanctuary city, but it is too fucking cold and miserable for warm blooded folks.

 

[shields shtr]

Missoula and Bozeman hardest hit.

I went downtown last weekend...which is the first time I have been there in a loooong time. We were eating at a restaurant and my buddy mentioned there was a little sanctuary "tent city" right around the corner. Incredulous, I took a look for myself and low and behold, there it was. Inhabited by the types of folks you would expect to see in such an area. Such a far cry from when I first arrived here 25 years ago. Horse trailers and flat beds used to be the norm. Now, Range Rovers, Tesla's, and homeless people. Such a strange cross section of people.

 

[Choid]

I went downtown last weekend...which is the first time I have been there in a loooong time. We were eating at a restaurant and my buddy mentioned there was a little sanctuary "tent city" right around the corner. Incredulous, I took a look for myself and low and behold, there it was. Inhabited by the types of folks you would expect to see in such an area. Such a far cry from when I first arrived here 25 years ago. Horse trailers and flat beds used to be the norm. Now, Range Rovers, Tesla's, and homeless people. Such a strange cross section of people.

Which downtown? I refuse to go to Bozeman, but both Helena and Missoula have good sized homeless camps. Fun fact: if you are more than 50 miles from a "job center" you can qualify for most services without any proof of looking for a job or anything. This is why LIncoln, MT, 50 miles from Helena, has a shithole trailer park.

 

[eca7891]

Helena has homeless camps?

Kalispell may be my bing up the list.

btw. How did that work in the winter?

 

[Choid]

Helena has more homeless people than camps. Missoula has legit homeless camps. I'm not sure how they deal with winter, but Missoula is warmer than most of MT.
Maybe others like the Kalispell area, but I can't recommend it.

 

[eca7891]

Polls Archive - Flathead Beacon

flatheadbeacon.com

Are these an accurate gauge for Montana as a whole?

 

[Choid]

Those look like various online polls. It doesn't reflect my area for sure. Everybody wants the fucking bears delisted. Even my one liberal neighbor does.

 

[shields shtr]

Which downtown?

BozeAngeles.