Night Vision Moving on from the XRF with a ???

[Ksracer]

Most of you have probably seen my thread documenting my experience with the Halo XRF. To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement. But I don't want this thread to turn negative, N-Vision is going to work with the dealer to get me credit and I'm moving on.

The XRF has so much going for it as a long range scope.
.An excellent image.
.Easy to use controls.
.Batteries that last forever.
.Nice Mil based reticle. (It's just the wrong color...)
.LRF that shows potential (when it wants to)

I really wish it had worked out. On paper, it has everything going for it. There are obviously people who had a much better experience with theirs, but after seeing the zero shift on top of my other issues I'm ready to throw the towel in and move on.

I already have a Radius LRF in place. My three choices going forward look to be...

Trijicon-ir Hunter. (The new models have a mil reticle, but a lower base mag that will hurt for the longer shots.)

UTCx. (I've found one, but the price is really more than I want to spend. Plus the whole no warranty-no repair thing is terrifying)

LWTS-LR. (Most likely option. I would probably run it as a stand-alone to get rolling again, then possibly add a G3 or Nightforce 2.5-20. I'm a little concerned that the clip on image won't live up to the XRF's though.)

Wig has already spent way more time with me on my options than I can ever thank him for. But I'll say it again. Thank-you Joe.

Does anybody else who has spent time with any of these scopes have anything to offer? Any comparisons? Pitfalls or things I'm overlooking? Again, my main goal is to shoot coyotes in the 500yd and farther range. That's an easy shot with my daytime match rig, now I want to start making them at night.

Thanks guys.

Derrick D.

 

[Cypress87]

Have you tried making a squeaky sound with your lips and getting them to come closer than 500 yards?

 

[P&Y]

Have you tried making a squeaky sound with your lips and getting them to come closer than 500 yards?

My guess is he did and wants to hammer the second, third or forth one!

 

[Squibbler]

Humble opinion here, so take it for what it's worth. I'm not being harsh with this next comment but more in an "excited for you" tone. Take a look at your wallet, and then go steal a bit more from your piggy bank. With that amount find what's available for military grade thermal clip on. If you find one, since they tend to be elusive creatures, grip & rip that f**k'r and don't look back. Cause when that happens, unbenounced to you, you just picked up a game changer but don't quite realize it yet.

To me, a dedicated scope does not offer long range capability. If my prerequisites are specifically to reduce weight, only shoot MPBR, with no need for day optic use, then I would opt in for a stand alone. Otherwise I'm gonna rock on with a clip-on

In regards to your specific unit questions, yes I've played with those units. But if Wig has helped you, then you have talked to the expert, heed his advice. I'm just a punk with an opinion, no SME here.

 

[Ksracer]

My guess is he did and wants to hammer the second, third or forth one!

Yup. I can see for 2 miles off my back porch. After I killed the first 30 or so, they kind of caught on to the "squeaky noises with mouth trick".
And yes, we get a lot of triples and I want to keep hammering the ones that get away also.

 

[Cypress87]

My guess is he did and wants to hammer the second, third or forth one!

Seems like a big squeeze for a little juice.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

I would highly recommend looking through a Steiner S35. Unless you go UTX / Raptar, just know your dope and use your current LRF.

 

[fdkay]

Just buy an invisibility suit, sneak up on them and dispatch them with a knife.

Military Gen-6 Stealth Operator Invisibility Suit

www.harrysarmysurplus.net

 

[Cypress87]

Just buy an invisibility suit, sneak up on them and dispatch them with a knife.

Military Gen-6 Stealth Operator Invisibility Suit

www.harrysarmysurplus.net

But then he would have to leave the porch

 

[324matt]

Id say go for a MKiii 60mm, find an old one with 4.5 base mag. They are reliable, dont have polymere housings, are reasonable to fix if needed, and dont have zero shift.
Or,
Buy a new model MKiii 60mm and get used to the 3.0 base mag.

500yds is a long ways for a thermal scope, no matter who manufactures it.

 

[Ksracer]

Id say go for a MKiii 60mm, find an old one with 4.5 base mag. They are reliable, dont have polymere housings, are reasonable to fix if needed, and dont have zero shift.
Or,
Buy a new model MKiii 60mm and get used to the 3.0 base mag.

500yds is a long ways for a thermal scope, no matter who manufactures it.

"don't have polymer housings" I like the sound of that.
The XRF is only 3.5 and it's image and reticle are adequate to make the attempt at 500+. Maybe 3x wouldn't be so bad.
I don't think the older ones have a Mil based reticle, so that rules them out for me.

 

[TheHorta]

Do you need to jump today?

I’d recommend waiting for the Theon units to hit this Spring. Buy something cheap/used to tie you over that you can either resell or keep on a different gun. Maybe get an iRay CH50 v2 or a Rico.

I would not recommend spending the money on a LWTS-LR as the image quality is not as good as the Halo you’re dumping, unless you get one for a steal (under $10K). They also suck down 4x Lithium AA’s at a time like Cookie Monster on a crack binge, and the 17um sensor doesn’t reach quite as far as you might think.

I think the Theons will be just what many of us have been waiting for.

 

[RickyRodney]

You could def make hits at 500 with an LWTS-LR, used as a clip on.

 

[RickyRodney]

Do you need to jump today?

I’d recommend waiting for the Theon units to hit this Spring. Buy something cheap/used to tie you over that you can either resell or keep on a different gun. Maybe get an iRay CH50 v2 or a Rico.

I would not recommend spending the money on a LWTS-LR as the image quality is not as good as the Halo you’re dumping, unless you get one for a steal (under $10K). They also suck down 4x Lithium AA’s at a time like Cookie Monster on a crack binge, and the 17um sensor doesn’t reach quite as far as you might think.

I think the Theons will be just what many of us have been waiting for.

Mr. Horta, any chance the Theons are going to be compatible with the raptar and traceIR?

 

[TheHorta]

Mr. Horta, any chance the Theons are going to be compatible with the raptar and traceIR?

I wish that with all my heart, but sadly no.

 

[Ksracer]

Do you need to jump today?

I’d recommend waiting for the Theon units to hit this Spring. Buy something cheap/used to tie you over that you can either resell or keep on a different gun. Maybe get an iRay CH50 v2 or a Rico.

I would not recommend spending the money on a LWTS-LR as the image quality is not as good as the Halo you’re dumping, unless you get one for a steal (under $10K). They also suck down 4x Lithium AA’s at a time like Cookie Monster on a crack binge, and the 17um sensor doesn’t reach quite as far as you might think.

I think the Theons will be just what many of us have been waiting for.

Patience is definitely not one of my virtues...
I'd like to get something rolling yesterday.

I've still got the XQ50 on my .223 as a Buddy gun, but I'm not going to be happy using it myself for very long. Plus having a spare you can hand to a landowner and say "let's go hunt" opens up tons of more opportunities.

Maybe I need to be looking at the replacement as temporary with thoughts of selling it for whatever comes out. Between the IR-Hunter and the LWTS-LR, re-sale on the LWTS-LR is probably going to get hurt the worst by a new clip-on.

 

[foxkilr89]

Buy a yoter c until the Theon optics are available, that’s what I did. It’s not a utc x/xii but it’s a good choice for the money. It throws a better image than a lwts lr and tigir. I haven’t had any poi issues and 10-12x is usable all day. Ultimately, I want the elr theon if it lives up to the hype but I needed something to hunt with for the time being.

 

[Ksracer]

Buy a yoter c until the Theon optics are available, that’s what I did.

That scope and the Super Yoter R were on my radar a few weeks ago, then I kind of forgot about them when I couldn't find reticle information on the SY. The C looks very interesting, but I don't have a suitable day scope just yet.
I ordered the IR-HUNTER 3-24x today. It's still not ideal for my 500yd goal, but it seems like the quickest way to get rolling again.
I'll make the switch to a Theon this summer if they pan out.

 

[P&Y]

Good luck with the Trijicon. I wish I'd have gone that direction.

 

[jda2631]

Do you need to jump today?

I’d recommend waiting for the Theon units to hit this Spring. Buy something cheap/used to tie you over that you can either resell or keep on a different gun. Maybe get an iRay CH50 v2 or a Rico.

I would not recommend spending the money on a LWTS-LR as the image quality is not as good as the Halo you’re dumping, unless you get one for a steal (under $10K). They also suck down 4x Lithium AA’s at a time like Cookie Monster on a crack binge, and the 17um sensor doesn’t reach quite as far as you might think.

I think the Theons will be just what many of us have been waiting for.

First I've heard of the Theons, I'm new to thermal game. I was going to get an XRF, having doubts now. What are these?

 

[Ksracer]

First I've heard of the Theons, I'm new to thermal game. I was going to get an XRF, having doubts now. What are these?

Type Theon into the search bar and it will pull up some recent posts. They haven't been released yet and it sounds like people have been holding their breath for them a while.

 

[wigwamitus]

Company Profile

www.theon.com

 

[McNamara0851]

I’m in the same boat. My XRF will not turn on after 4 hunts. I sold my Wilcox Raptar to fund it and now I’m kicking myself in the ass. I understand that shot show is going on, but I requested a phone call on Tuesday before I ship it back (I got dicked out of an XRS that USPS lost last year) and have not heard from anyone at NVISION since. I run a helmet mounted NOX35 as well. Both units are awesome when they work, but I believe I’m moving on. I take 3-400 yard shots almost every night that I go out in central Illinois, so longer range capability is at the top of my list.

Subscribing for updates.

PS. The battery compartment on the HALO XRF, (assuming on the x as well) interferes with the bolt throw on Left handed bolt guns. I’ve not seen mention of that anywhere.

 

[patriotunknown]

Well this is interesting.

 

[kirsch]

There will be a Super Yoter LRF available early Fall if you can wait that long. Other than this, the Trail 2 XP50 is an option.

 

[Max_R]

@McNamara0851:

I requested a phone call on Tuesday before I ship it back ... and have not heard from anyone at NVISION since.

Sorry, we were very shorthanded last week in the office because of the Shot Show. I'm sure somebody will get back to you on Monday if it has not been done already.

 

[Ksracer]

Subscribing for updates

I haven't found a good option yet either. The deal on the Trijicon fell through, so I didn't get to try that. As of now, I'm waiting (praying/hoping) on a refund from my dealer for my XRF so that cluster f* can be put to rest.
My Pulsar range finder doesn't go much past 400yds on coyotes on an average night, but at least it works so that's a huge bonus I guess. It will usually range buildings and stuff in the 8-1kyd range.
The Radius I mounted has been flawless. 2.5k on tree lines and an easy 1.8k on cattle. The 3 ranges it displays are nice if there is foliage or something large behind the animal. I believe it's the best option for ranging, certainly for the price.
Best of luck.

 

[Sogan]

There will be a Super Yoter LRF available early Fall if you can wait that long. Other than this, the Trail 2 XP50 is an option.

Is that when you think most of the new thermals that were released at Shot will drop?

 

[kirsch]

Is that when you think most of the new thermals that were released at Shot will drop?

I can't speak for all thermals companies. In speaking with Bering Optics, they are releasing a new Hogster to replace the 25 and 35mm called the Vibe. It will be the Hogster 25/35 with the addition of the features of the Super Hogster including internal recording, additional reticles, etc. They are saying late spring/early summer for this model.

They are also releasing a Super Yoter 35 which will be a late spring/early summer timetable.

The only model from Bering that I have heard an early Fall release is the LRF version. They usually have one major product release every Fall and this year it sounds like the LRF will be it. It appears it will be available in the Super Hogster and Super Yoter 50mm but not sure which will be first.

 

[Sogan]

Quite a few new clip ones were released at SHOT. Is clip on shift still a thing?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Why not the voodoo units?

For me its Voodoo Economics. $15 to $17 K a roll.

Thats Voodoo TOO MUCH for me.

I would have to rob the Bank in Hortaville to be able to pay those prices.

 

[WhereNow&How]

My

THats how much the Greek scopes are ?

Shipping costs are increasing dramatically. Scalped this comment off the internet. Dang, hope that is not what is really occurring out there.

"As a freight forwarder I can confirm that transportation costs have risen like no other time before. Shipping a 40’ container from China to the port of Montreal, for instance, will cost you USD$25,000 today versus USD3,000 just 18 months ago."

 

[WhereNow&How]

Quite a few new clip ones were released at SHOT. Is clip on shift still a thing?

Guess we gonna find out in the next few months when performance reports roll in.

I'm good with 1/20th minute of hog at 200 to 300 yards so Im easier to please than the long range guys shooting nats off a fleas ass at a 1,000.

 

[Sogan]

Looks like the Voodoo S paperwork states "it was tested at 25 yards by firing 5 rounds through a 5.56 case". 25 yards doesnt seem like much of a test for POI shift. 100 yards would maybe prove something but not 25.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Well Horta has 2 of them and JW is in possession of them for now.

Between the 2 of them we should get some excellent feedback.

 

[Ksracer]

I'm good with 1/20th minute of hog at 200 to 300 yards so Im easier to please than the long range guys shooting nats off a fleas ass at a 1,000.

Is clip on shift still a thing?

I'm genuinely curious what I should consider acceptable for zero shift on a thermal. Just installed Coliminated clip-on's or non-coliminated clip on's and stand-alones that have been zero'd and never removed again.

Let's assume my rifle will consistently group ¼moa @100 and ½moa@700. (It will beat those numbers and I've got the pics to prove it, but that's another argument, so let's assume.)

Most hunters would consider a 1" shift @ 100 yds acceptable, shrug their shoulders and say "that's still a dead deer/hog". But that's a shift 4x greater than the capabilities of my rifle and it's a 7" shift at 700yds and likely a miss on a coyote at that range.

So how much error is acceptable from the scope alone? I realize thermals are far more complicated than lenses and erectors in a day scope. But it also seems like everybody gets hung up on how great the image is, and actually aiming the rifle doesn't seem to be given much thought.

Is a 2" or larger shift acceptable from $3k ATN?

What's acceptable from a $5k pulsar?

How about a $10k N-Vision or an $18k UTCx?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Well, I have spent a lifetime killen critters as a hunter. Never been much of a long range paper shooter. But did a lot of long range (to me) critter killen out to the 500 yardish mark on running critters as well.

Point being, 500 yardish mark on critters is getting out to the point of diminishing returns from the energy you put into an animal with a projectile to make consistent kills (with the calibers I was using, 270 Win being the largest). Sure you can stretch it out further, but typically end up with a lot of inconsistent results in the hunting arena, wounding animals and losing them.

All that being said, my motto is get as close as you can always to begin the process and draw a distance that is a no go. A thermal that is rugged and holds 1 to 2 MOA solidly is an effective hunting tool.

Make sure to watch the end of this vid. Erich Hartmann has some excellent advice. "make sure the enemy fills up your windshield before shooting, it will save you a bunch of ammunition." He was definitely, a real skilled hunter.

 

[Ksracer]

Good points. I certainly wouldn't recommend trying to do what I am with a trophy buck.
And I could watch those old vids for hours. That was a pretty cool one.

Point being, 500 yardish mark on critters is getting out to the point of diminishing returns from the energy you put into an animal with a projectile to make consistent kills (with the calibers I was using, 270 Win being the largest).

For reference, I ran a few #'s through my Kestrel and my little 6mm dasher with a High BC bullet carries more energy @700yds than a .270 win with a 130gn soft point does at 500yds. My 22 Creed with Mid-weight bullets nearly matches the 270 at range.
Getting closer isn't an easy answer though. Friday night we had 2 dogs coming in hard from the east and 4 more taking there time downwind from the west. Those 4 turned and ran off and sat at 500yds when we shot the first 2. Those dogs looking at me thinking they are safe @500 are the ones I want to be able to engage.

 

[McNamara0851]

I forgot to add, I tried an axion LRF last season as a range-finding solution. The scanner left a lot on the table and the pulsar rangefinder is laughable at best. 400 yards was a stretch for ranging coyotes in an open field. The LRF on the axion seemed to perform similarly to the XP50 trail lrf my hunting partner uses. Fun-fact about that scope, he is on his third unit. Pulsar replaced the other two due to POI shift iirc. He is seeing a 4” POI shift, day to day on his current trail. On top of that, Pulsar’s batteries are higher than giraffe pussy. I will say that their CS is/was awesome, but it’d be nice not to rely on them.

My two Nvision products are at the top of the heap in terms of image and performance in units that I’ve used, from Bering optics to Trijicon and quite a few others in between. That was also the opinion of the other night hunters that have had a chance to fondle them. If they could improve the reliability, and make them compatible with my LH rifles without running a riser, they’d be worth the investment. Just my .02.

I will say that my two crusty ass Simrad 203s have never missed a day of work. I’m strongly considering a high FOM WP clip-on and another raptar, depending on how painful/painless the warranty process is on my XRF.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I understand. Like I said, I enjoyed the skill of getting closer more than the long distance shooting.

When I quit turkey hunting I was down to a 410 single barrel with No 6 shot. If a Gobbler was more than 7 paces from me, he lived to be hunted another day. Putting a wary Gobbler on the "end of your gun barrel" is the skill I deemed more important so to speak.

If less than 7 paces I would give him a "distress putt" to make him look me in the eyes and know he had "fooked up" in the nano second between me pulling the trigger and him getting out of Dodge. So I personally put more effort & skill into my hunting prowess than my long range shooting abilities.

But I do understand each to his own. And long range shooting is definitely a valuable skill.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Good points. I certainly wouldn't recommend trying to do what I am with a trophy buck.
And I could watch those old vids for hours. That was a pretty cool one.


For reference, I ran a few #'s through my Kestrel and my little 6mm dasher with a High BC bullet carries more energy @700yds than a .270 win with a 130gn soft point does at 500yds. My 22 Creed with Mid-weight bullets nearly matches the 270 at range.

Owe I forgot. Yeah when I was doing my heaviest pest control killen, the 6mm dasher and 22 Creed weren't even thought of. 22-250's, 220 Swifts and 308 Norma Magnum were some of the top dogs back in 75-79 in my part of the world then. But the old faithful 270 Win was just a good longer range terminal pill for a lot of critters. For what ever reason, it just seems to kill better. 110 grain Hornady Hollow Points (hopped up handloads) and 130 grain Core Lokts (Factory) have what it takes to put stuff down.

 

[WhereNow&How]

The LRF on the axion seemed to perform similarly to the XP50 trail lrf my hunting partner uses. Fun-fact about that scope, he is on his third unit. Pulsar replaced the other two due to POI shift iirc. He is seeing a 4” POI shift, day to day on his current trail. On top of that, Pulsar’s batteries are higher than giraffe pussy. I will say that their CS is/was awesome, but it’d be nice not to rely on them.



View attachment 7791961

Is your buddies XP 50 the new ones that have the metal bodies. I thought the metal housings were supposed to eliminate the POI shifts the first gen version was prone to.

 

[Ksracer]

Fun-fact about that scope, he is on his third unit. Pulsar replaced the other two due to POI shift iirc. He is seeing a 4” POI shift, day to day on his current trail.

I went through that also. They fixed the shift on my first one and didn't mess around about it. Granted, they had 6 months or better to develop a fix before I sent mine in. Then they completely upgraded me to the Trail 2 when I asked them if the LRF was working to their specs. It holds zero within 1" or so also. The bottom line is that it works, it's just a 400yd max rangefinder, which is disappointing.

I will say that their CS is/was awesome, but it’d be nice not to rely on them.

X2. I don't remember hearing any excuses from them.

My two Nvision products are at the top of the heap in terms of image and performance in units that I’ve used, from Bering optics to Trijicon and quite a few others in between. That was also the opinion of the other night hunters that have had a chance to fondle them. If they could improve the reliability, and make them compatible with my LH rifles without running a riser, they’d be worth the investment.

Agreed again. My buddies scope is awesome. I figured they would replace mine the morning I sent them the vid of it still not working after the update. It took another week and a few nasty messages to get a plausible explanation as to why mine wouldn't work while 2 identical units on either side of it were fine. Once I started hearing about the other problems I decided it didn't matter how nice the unit was, it was time to bail.

Killing some damn coyotes shouldn't be this difficult, lol.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

So I have been testing a xrf with the latest software/firmware update. I have put some solid time in testing this unit out with as many variables in terms of weather, terrain, targets, animals that i could come up with. My testing included temps down to near zero and included mechanical zero retention, performance of all aspects of the electronics, batteries, internal recording and the lrf. I had zero instances where the range finder didn't perform to my expectations. I was able to visibly check the collimation and beam divergence with g3 nv devices. It was spot on to the aim box internally. The beam is overall very small in height and somewhat wider much like the radius lrf. I had zero issues in light rain, snow and light fog. i was able to take my furthest night coyote at 523yd with this unit after ranging it in misty rain. As a side note the reticle stayed opposite polarity of the target even when holding 2.3 mil above target.

I do not own this xrf so no vested interest as it was simply provided for me to test and evaluate it. I do own a halo LR and truly had no intentions of moving away from it until a workable collimated clip on comes on scene but after running this unit for nearly a month i will be honest and do want one...lol.

For those of you with issues i can only surmise this software/firmware update will resolve your issues with lrf performance if you are having issue.

Hope this helps some.

 

[Capitol5868]

Im glad yours worked because my XRF just returned from N-Vision in WORSE condition then when I sent it in.

\

And look at that line BUT what the fuck is that debris in the lower left of the screen. Its on the inside of the scope whatever it is.

 

[Ksracer]

So I have been testing a xrf with the latest software/firmware update.

Was the scope you tested known to have problems previously?
Or was it a new one that may not have had problems to begin with?

 

[newguy2k3v2]

Im glad yours worked because my XRF just returned from N-Vision in WORSE condition then when I sent it in.

\

And look at that line BUT what the fuck is that debris in the lower left of the screen. Its on the inside of the scope whatever it is.

Just curious but do you have a pvs-14 or other nv device that you can use to see the ranging beam?

 

[Capitol5868]

Just curious but do you have a pvs-14 or other nv device that you can use to see the ranging beam?

No I dont have a pvs-14. I tried ranging several different locations. Its the same thing. At the first few range readings its fine and then displays incorrect readings.

A good question was posted by Ksracer.

Was the scope you tested known to have problems previously?
Or was it a new one that may not have had problems to begin with?

 

[Ksracer]

A good question was posted by Ksracer.

It's the same question I've been asking since day one, just worded and phrased different. Nobody wants to answer it.

These problems appear to be caused by defective hardware/components specific to the defective scopes, not the software that is shared with scopes that work fine. But what do I know. I'm just the dummy who wrote the check.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Was the scope you tested known to have problems previously?
Or was it a new one that may not have had problems to begin with?

i honestly dont know for sure.