PRS Talk Mulligans?....Really

[backsideof45]

As if it can't be any more stupid, now I get a survey asking about mulligans.

Listen, I know everyone pulls a bad shot or has a bad stage, but let's get real.

You're an adult.....and should act like one. If you need to somehow be compensated for your lack of ability in this game, go do something else. Like golf.

Everyone now should have already moved to a 20+lb 6mm variant with a quality optic and ballistic software and near scientific level of reloading capabilities if you're participating in this game. So really the only true variable is you (and a bit of wind).

So if you wiff a stage or shot.... OWN IT.....and move on. No one cares, get over it.

 

[Ridge_Walker]

My whole life I've been glad my last name wasn't Mulligan...

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Did you add “Fuck off” as an option and return the survey?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Handicaps are next

 

[308pirate]

So mulligans for

• mis-reading the wind?
• lighting one off by mistake?
• getting tangled in your mass of pillows?
• being slow?
• not getting the score you think you deserve?
• short stroking your rifle and jamming it?
• fumbling a reload?
• resting your chin on the muzzle of your rifle?

 

[backsideof45]

Handicaps are next

I thought that was the "Production" class......

 

[Mormegil87]

I've never shot a match with them before. I've heard of them being used as a way to generate revenue for charities or to pay ROs.

I dont think they belong at a 2 Day national match.

 

[308pirate]

I dont think they belong at a 2 Day national match.

Getting a re-shoot because you didn't like how things went doesn't belong in any practical shooting sport. You fix your shit on the clock and you take your score.

The only re-shoots in USPSA are for stage equipment/target failures (popper fails calibration, wind knocks a target over, RO accidentally blocks your path, etc) or something happens where the RO can't accurately determine your score (like a target that didn't get pasted before your run). Your gun jams, too bad. You get lost in the stage, tough shit. You light one off by mistake, you might get a DQ depending on the exact circumstances.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I've never shot a match with them before. I've heard of them being used as a way to generate revenue for charities or to pay ROs.

I dont think they belong at a 2 Day national match.

Yeah. The very first year we started our club series here on MI they had mulligans. You could purchase a coin for like $10 or $20 or something and that money went to help the son of the range owner who was a young boy with cancer. I only seen them use maybe 1-2 times by a very new shooter that had a magazine malfunction on a stage. Most shooters bought one in support but everyone kind of agreed that we shouldn’t be using them. Thank fully it wasn’t “abused” but they are something that shouldn’t be in any match.

 

[sachsmart]

Never played Golf, had to google when I got the survey. There is a place for Mulligans, its in U6 Soccer not in sanctioned PRS matches.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

As if it can't be any more stupid, now I get a survey asking about mulligans.

You got the survey because PRS has already been allowing them in some regions.

This is despite the rule book expressly addressing conditions for re-shoots without one of them being "I gave the MD $20 for a Mulligan Token & want a do-over because I don't like my score." The leadership's contention is that a mulligan is not the same thing as a re-shoot, and so isn't prohibited, or even addressed, by the current rule book, despite the fact that it allows a shooter to re-shoot a stage. Which is B.S..

When the mulligan thing came out at the end of this past season, it understandably made lots of folks angry (big drama on bookface that has since been deleted). Especially considering that the whole point of a governing body is to provide a set of rules and to ensure they are applied evenly across the country.

I mean, what's the point of "tracking everyone's scores" if some matches are selling do-overs and others aren't?

There's no place for Mulligans in PRS.

 

[backsideof45]

What the PRS should be sending out is a survey that asks " How can we make this sport more challenging for you, the shooter". Not a questionnaire about how to deal with mediocrity.

 

[accurate obsession]

For normal matches, the good, bad and the ugly, you just have to own it. Only place for mulligans is charity/fun matches as an additional money maker.

 

[Mormegil87]

Yeah. The very first year we started our club series here on MI they had mulligans. You could purchase a coin for like $10 or $20 or something and that money went to help the son of the range owner who was a young boy with cancer. I only seen them use maybe 1-2 times by a very new shooter that had a magazine malfunction on a stage. Most shooters bought one in support but everyone kind of agreed that we shouldn’t be using them. Thank fully it wasn’t “abused” but they are something that shouldn’t be in any match.

Yeah, I had talked to Nate about it because I was a little confused on why it had come up.

 

[308pirate]

The leadership's contention is that a mulligan is not the same thing as a re-shoot, and so isn't prohibited, or even addressed, by the current rule book, despite the fact that it allows a shooter to re-shoot a stage. Which is B.S..

 

[candyx]

I wouldn't have imagine that mulligans would eventually creep into the PRS but like with all adult sports everyone wants to look a lot better then what they are. Golf is a joke most of the time especially outings, I moved to sporting clays and its the same mentality with mulligans and honesty on score keeping. Its funny watching people brag and defend a bogus score but hey I guess it makes them feel better about themselves.
If the PRS follows this route it will join the ranks of golf and such. People shouldn't compete if they don't want to be scored honestly on their skill level against others, this all stems from participation trophies.

 

[backsideof45]

I put full blame at Shannon Kay's feet. Given his "background", you'd of thought he would despise this sort of thing.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I put full blame at Shannon Kay's feet. Given his "background", you'd of thought he would despise this sort of thing.

Exactly.

Coming from a community where you are responsible for EVERY shot you take, the idea of this is disgusting.

From a pure sporting perspective, its a joke. Does any real sport give you a do over?

And you wonder why dipshits get caught resting their muzzle against their chin.

 

[anotherwannabe]

You got the survey because PRS has already been allowing them in some regions,

There were mulligans at national matches in 2021?

 

[Campguy308]

I've seen the mulligan thing at club matches. What a pile of shit. I thought, WTF? Glad im not the only one. Makes me feel better about choosing not to spend $4k on a massively impractical rifle to play a game with people wearing jerseys and using $500 tripods to support the rear of their rifle.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

$4K rifle and, $500 Tripods? You must shoot on the poor side of town

 

[Campguy308]

$4K rifle and, $500 Tripods? You must shoot on the poor side of town

You are right, i realized my error after i posted

 

[Darkside-Six]

I've seen the mulligan thing at club matches. What a pile of shit. I thought, WTF? Glad im not the only one. Makes me feel better about choosing not to spend $4k on a massively impractical rifle to play a game with people wearing jerseys and using $500 tripods to support the rear of their rifle.

Woa there now……you can talk all the shit you want about them there Jersey bois but you do not talk shit about my fucking tripod!!!

 

[BigPineyTradingPost]

Is going to make a difference in scores? Nope.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Is going to make a difference in scores? Nope.

 

[Campguy308]

I think they wanted to charge me $10 for a mulligan. Best $10 I never spent. Id rather suck than to buy into a carnival game.

 

[Lowlight]

When the inmates run the asylum, and the warden wants everyone to be his friend, you tend to let people do what makes them feel good.

Like the KYL, you can stop, say no, and keep your points but if you gamble, and lose, that should be on you. But no, we can't "take" points from people who bet them, you have to change the concept completely to make everyone feel good.

Mulligans are just an extension of the pussification of America and the Series are playing along with it.

This is why the matches are repetitive, boring, and contrived, because they only do what people like, so they repeat that stuff over and over vs coming up with new challenging stages. Everything is stale as fuck and they know it

 

[camocorvette]

I don't think they belong in competitive sports.

That said I recently shot a rimfire match that had them offered at $20. You could only buy one. You could redo one whole stage. I bought one and used it.

The match was a fundraiser for a local family that their son had passed. The prize table was items the competitors brought and was raffled off. You could buy as many raffles as you wanted for $20.

It was a good thing then. We raised alot of money. I think most bought a mulligan.

But in normal matches. No way.

 

[OREGUN]

Two recent occurrences:

A local club match wherein one of the better shooters (legitimately a contender to be top 3) and certainly the best shooter in my squad, got to a stage that he fully expected to clean. He fumbled some of his gear and missed his second shot. About three shots later, he somehow magically pulled his ear protection out of his ear. He stopped immediately and demanded that as it was a piece of safety equipment that had failed he deserved a re-shoot. He then proceeded to re-shoot and clean the stage. I lost a little respect for that man that day.

Several months later at a much larger match, it was blowing 40+ miles an hour and was a total sandstorm. I ended up with so much sand in my front locking lugs that my bolt wouldn’t close mid-stage. I took the bolt out, cleaned the dirt off and took my 3/6 like a man.

My point is not that I’m a better person but rather that “mulligans” while fine for side-bets and charity events are certainly not fine for scores-for-record. Sanctioning an official mulligan program further reduces any uncertainty in the activity (might as well do away with par-times and shoot indoors) and people who game the rules to get a mulligan show their ass.

No mulligans.

 

[kthomas]

It's insane they are even considering this

It's already pretty bad how contrived PRS has become, but this is really watering it down further. I can't imagine the most competitive and top shooters in the PRS would actually want this? This would really cheapen any competitive spirit around PRS, do many of the inmates in the asylum not see this?

 

[Lowlight]

The Beauty of the story above, the Contender who removed his Ear Pro, using it for a mulligan. Some new shooter will never see or understand what was going on, and miss it completely. Then next week he'll crow about the guy saying he is a rockstar because he let him borrow a bag.

These are the tiny things we talk about that newer shooters never see or understand

 

[Bacarrat]

Might as well hand out participation trophies while you're at it.

 

[308pirate]

About three shots later, he somehow magically pulled his ear protection out of his ear. He stopped immediately and demanded that as it was a piece of safety equipment that had failed he deserved a re-shoot.

People used to pull that shit (with their glasses too) in USPSA. Now, dumping your glasses or hearing protection to get a re-shoot gets you a DQ instead. And not a stage DQ either, that shit doesn't exist in USPSA. Your match is over and your scorecard is wiped off clean, as if you were never there.

We ROs see that shit. No one gets away with it.

 

[kthomas]

The Beauty of the story above, the Contender who removed his Ear Pro, using it for a mulligan. Some new shooter will never see or understand what was going on, and miss it completely. Then next week he'll crow about the guy saying he is a rockstar because he let him borrow a bag.

These are the tiny things we talk about that newer shooters never see or understand

As someone who's shot and RO'ed PRS matches, I've definitely seen jersey shooters try to get away with whatever they can.

 

[Manning5R]

There is an "adult sport" that has a form of mulligan. Bracket drag racing. If you lose first round, you could pay $xx and get back in. I was racing when this first started being popular and was adamantly against it. But the majority wanted it, so it's stayed. There are races where second round buy backs are a thing. I haven't raced in a while, things may have changed.

Golf is super popular and lots of people suck. Why do they keep playing? Drinking and driving maybe?

 

[backsideof45]

I see this being a product of the "we want to grow the sport so everyone can participate, it can be mainstream and relevant so we can show it on TV and get big time sponsors"

Well I'm sorry, but what you've got is a small sliver of a now minority demographic (i.e. male/caucasian/25-49yo/carrying a few extra lbs and with some disposable income) who just wanted to go and be judged on their ability to reload,shoot and move under artificial stress against others. And to talk shit to their buddies when they suck.

You know what? I'm gonna give Mr Kay a mulligan on this survey he sent out. You only get one sir, do better next time.

 

[kindabitey]

I see this being a product of the "we want to grow the sport so everyone can participate, it can be mainstream and relevant so we can show it on TV and get big time sponsors"

Well I'm sorry, but what you've got is a small sliver of a now minority demographic (i.e. male/caucasian/25-49yo/carrying a few extra lbs and with some disposable income) who just wanted to go and be judged on their ability to reload,shoot and move under artificial stress against others. And to talk shit to their buddies when they suck.

You know what? I'm gonna give Mr Kay a mulligan on this survey he sent out. You only get one sir, do better next time.

"we want to grow the sport...." is code for: "we need to replace all the people we pissed off last year"

 

[1moaoff]

No mulligans!!!

In theory this is a tactical type match.. kind of...

If you were down range do you get to say "mulligan"

This is more stupid than stupider +dumber + 2 parts snail trails next to the bed in the AM.

 

[1moaoff]

 

[ZY100]

Mulligans in a sanctioned match…nope. Own what you (and your equipment) do on the clock. Simple.

BTW KYL should have stayed…be a hero or be a zero. Have a strategy, make the call and own it. Or take your 7 or 8 and walk away. Yes, a zero will have a significant impact on your ranking…big boy program.

About the only place I could fathom it would be a fun or fundraiser match. An out of the box sKills/fun match to test skills not allowed/typically seen in a PRS/NRL match. Like ranging on the clock, finding targets on the clock, weird shot/hit movement/target swap scenarios, loading mags on the clock, etc along with some of the more typical stages.

However, if you really want to raise money at a match—for a good cause—have a side stage at registration for an entry fee and a prize. One was $10 for 8 targets UKD with a nice JP Valkyrie…fastet time got the rifle. Another was a rifle donated by Charlie Robertson (super nice guy)…$20 to shoot a group with it at 300. Smallest group got the rifle.

Ok…rant off.

ZY

 

[poorboyshooter]

just say no

 

[Krob95]

Well I'm sorry, but what you've got is a small sliver of a now minority demographic (i.e. male/caucasian/25-49yo/carrying a few extra lbs and with some disposable income) who just wanted to go and be judged on their ability to reload,shoot and move under artificial stress against others. And to talk shit to their buddies when they suck.

I'm sorry, but theres no need for the personal attacks

 

[acourvil]

Hmmm . . . I thought it was just a game. It’s hard to see people getting that worked up about it as long as everyone has the same rules, certainly doesn’t seem like a reason for personal attacks.

Oh wait, this is the Hide . . .

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

What is a game for some is a sport to others. Not everyone shoots for the same reasons or has the same motivations.

I would rather shoot outlaw and more traditional matches that don't cater to the participation trophy crowd if that's the direction leadership wants PRS to go.

This is the kind of bullshit that helped spawn the NRL in the first place.

And the cycle repeats.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Just to be devil’s advocate and also shed some light on things.

Some MD/clubs rely on mulligan money to:

- Pay for RO expenses for two day matches
- Basically is the actual profit from a single day match

On single day matches, many ranges’ fees amount to most or all of the entry fee. Instead of hiking the match fees up and turning off a lot of shooters, they offer paid mulligans.

On two day matches, the range fees + expenses eat up a ton of the total revenue. Taking even more money out of what’s left to pay for RO hotels and such kills a lot of the bottom line.


So, for some locations, mulligans and such are what makes it worth the MD’s time to continue to run matches.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Also, to be clear, I don’t think they should be included in a “pro series” and such.

Just giving the viewpoint of more than one club/md I’ve talked to about it.

 

[Adam B]

Just to be devil’s advocate and also shed some light on things.

Some MD/clubs rely on mulligan money to:

- Pay for RO expenses for two day matches
- Basically is the actual profit from a single day match

On single day matches, many ranges’ fees amount to most or all of the entry fee. Instead of hiking the match fees up and turning off a lot of shooters, they offer paid mulligans.

On two day matches, the range fees + expenses eat up a ton of the total revenue. Taking even more money out of what’s left to pay for RO hotels and such kills a lot of the bottom line.


So, for some locations, mulligans and such are what makes it worth the MD’s time to continue to run matches.

Maybe if the geniuses who ran PRS didn't take so much money from running it, a mulligan wouldn't be needed to cover an RO.

 

[iceng]

Wow so much salt here. Many interesting arguments.

The answer is super simple. We put a KYL rack out at say 300m. $10 buy-in. Person to clean it the fastest. Like a skill stage.
Unlimited gear. If you wanna reshoot, $10 again.

That's the game. Most money wins. Yes if you have super skill, or a Ruger m77 in 30-06 with a Harris bipod, you still have equal chance of winning !! Totally fair, nonbias, shut up and shoot.

Would go for 2 days, which is about when you run of of money. Cheaper that strippers, equally expensive, so not really.

Who's in ?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Maybe if the geniuses who ran PRS didn't take so much money from running it, a mulligan wouldn't be needed to cover an RO.

As far as I know, PRS doesn’t take much at all from match fees.

 

[FjallJager]

When the inmates run the asylum, and the warden wants everyone to be his friend, you tend to let people do what makes them feel good.

Like the KYL, you can stop, say no, and keep your points but if you gamble, and lose, that should be on you. But no, we can't "take" points from people who bet them, you have to change the concept completely to make everyone feel good.

Mulligans are just an extension of the pussification of America and the Series are playing along with it.

This is why the matches are repetitive, boring, and contrived, because they only do what people like, so they repeat that stuff over and over vs coming up with new challenging stages. Everything is stale as fuck and they know it

Been about 10 years, but I used to 3 gun in southern California at a range near Lancaster that I don't remember the name of. Damn near everyone in the game there was a master class shooter. As they let you keep your own score.