Muzzle Brake & Crush Washer questions-

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Hi all-

I was hoping I could draw on the brain trust here and gain a little insight and knowledge on the subject of muzzle brakes, especially in concern with crush washers.

I recently bought a new Tikka T3X UPR and am very happy with it. However, in an effort to mitigate 308 recoil as much as possible (especially 180gr rounds, which are most of what I have stocked...) - I bought and installed a new LimbSaver AirTech recoil pad (I have various LimbSavers on my considerable shotgun collection, and they've always been *amazing* - so I figured I would try on a rifle ... I have yet to shoot it yet with the pad installed, because I was waiting to get the brake in the mail, in order to compare a 'before and after...) - and I also found what seemed to be a great deal on an "AR-STONER Precision Muzzle Brake" - which seemed like a steal at $20.

I have never used a detachable muzzle brake before. This particular one comes with a Crush Washer - I took the advice in some of the reviews and bought and extra. My question is pretty much ... when I use the Crush Washer and install the brake , am I going to be needing to buy and install a new crush washer every time I unscrew the brake (for cleaning etc.) and putting it back on? I have Googled this a few times, and mostly get answers involving car oil changes, and the answer seems "Yes, you need a new one everytime you do this..." ... when I search on SnipersHide, I mostly see (not-at-all-helpful) answers like "Pay a good gunsmith to do it..." or "buy a better brake..." - I am happy with what I bought - I am just a little confused- I was under the impression you can take them on and off at will - if you have to burn a $3 crush washer each time, I'd assume it's more of a semi-permanent type of thing.

And lastly- timing is just making sure the ports are where you want them, right? In my particular case, it has large left-and-right ports and a few smaller ports on the top - timing it is just making sure the ports on the top are on the top, right?

Thanks!

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

You can reuse the washer. If it doesn’t time correctly with adequate torque you will have to buy some timing washers that work like shims.

Do you have an action wrench or a decent barrel vise to hold the rifle while you torque it on?

 

[Supersubes]

Maybe i missed it, but why would you want to remove the brake at all? Your zeros will be different between both configurations. Technically speaking crush washers are a one time use, and wont give you the flexibility to time the brake like a peel washer will. You can buy the peel washers at most suppressor dealers.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The crush washer starts out flat and then deforms to allow a custom timing.

I seriously wonder what would be the big deal if the user simply hammered it out flat again before reusing it.

Greg

PS, after reading along some here, I guess I've been mounting them up bakward. I make dumb mistakes, no argument there.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

The crush washer starts out flat and then deforms to allow a custom timing.

I seriously wonder what would be the big deal if the user simply hammered it out flat again before reusing it.

Greg

Are we talking about the same washer? Im pretty sure the standard muzzle break crush washer starts out cupped like a bowl with the center cut out. Crushing it flat creates the spring back pressure to resist rotation. It will loose some of the spring over time but can still be used again.

Another option is a nut behind the brake making it self timing.

 

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Fair enough everyone thank you very much ... I don't think I have a specific action wrench or barrel vise - I know my father has a pretty big vise in his garage, and many other tools I could probably borrow. I didn't realize it was something that requires 'torqueing down' - and I didn't know about the POI change. I thought it was something you can take off and put back on at will ... I have an AK with an AMD-65 Hungarian-style brake, and I take it off and put it back on all the time. I realize it's not exactly the same, I am just saying, I didn't realize it's a more of a permanent-type of install. Thanks though - I am glad I got that pointed out to me.

And in that regard- you're cleaning the rifle with it on, then, right?

 

[Waorani]

I've always considered crush washers to be one time use. Have I cheated a couple times in a pinch - sure. But no reason to be removing/reattaching brake/flash hider anyway unless replacing w/ something else. Don't use crush washer for suppressor mount brakes/flash hiders.

 

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

OK roger that -thank you very much and to everyone .... I want to shoot it once or twice without installing it yet - so I can judge how much an effect the LimbSaver AirTech pad makes, and then once installing it I'll keep it on - Thank you to everyone again!

 

[LuvDog]

I’d go with peel washers to time it correctly. And yes, I’ve reused peel and crush washers before. That being said, why would you remove it regularly? I’d only remove it if it needs cleaning

 

[308pirate]

The crush washer starts out flat and then deforms to allow a custom timing.

Crush washers work exactly the opposite of what you said.

Peel washers are flat, and that's not what we're talking about here.

 

[308pirate]

OK roger that -thank you very much and to everyone .... I want to shoot it once or twice without installing it yet - so I can judge how much an effect the LimbSaver AirTech pad makes, and then once installing it I'll keep it on - Thank you to everyone again!

If I understand you correctly you will:

1. Shoot the rifle without the brake
2. Shoot it with the brake to feel the difference
3. Never remove the brake again

In that case why are you worried about the washer?

BTW, just because they can be reused doesn't mean they should be. They are meant to be a consumable and are cheap as hell. Just buy a small bag of them.

 

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

If I understand you correctly you will:

1. Shoot the rifle without the brake
2. Shoot it with the brake to feel the difference
3. Never remove the brake again

In that case why are you worried about the washer?

BTW, just because they can be reused doesn't mean they should be. They are meant to be a consumable and are cheap as hell. Just buy a small bag of them.

Because until about an hour ago, I did fully intend to remove the brake - regularly - because as I understand it, they are considerably louder and can even cause pain to people next to me shooting, sometimes even with hearing protection. Having learned that it's not exactly a 'plug-and-play' part, I guess I will have to adapt my thinking going forward - but that is why I was worried about the crush washers. Obviously, if I'm only doing it once, I am not worried about a single crush washer. Thank you for your help.

 

[308pirate]

Because until about an hour ago, I did fully intend to remove the brake - regularly - because as I understand it, they are considerably louder and can even cause pain to people next to me shooting, sometimes even with hearing protection. Having learned that it's not exactly a 'plug-and-play' part, I guess I will have to adapt my thinking going forward - but that is why I was worried about the crush washers. Obviously, if I'm only doing it once, I am not worried about a single crush washer. Thank you for your help.

Maybe you should read less and go shoot more. Then you'll understand the difference between reality and the internet.

 

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Maybe you should read less and go shoot more. Then you'll understand the difference between reality and the internet.

Profound, profound answer.

Thank you for your help. Your family must be so proud of your arrogance and ignorance. And people wonder why there is such a negative view of this community on all the other firearms websites. I myself came here for some help with a new purchase, and you've been extremely helpful in reminding me why I never really bothered with this place after a decade and a half or so on the internet firearms community. It's a shame, because it's not everyone. But it's people like you who ruin the world for the rest of normal people.

Again, thank you for your time. I am sure you have plenty of it.

 

[Familydude]

I also consider crush washers one-time use. I try and always have a few extras around sine they are pretty inexpensive. I have on occasion, used one a second time if I’ve run out of extras and it works as it should.

 

[308pirate]

Profound, profound answer.

Thank you for your help. Your family must be so proud of your arrogance and ignorance. And people wonder why there is such a negative view of this community on all the other firearms websites. I myself came here for some help with a new purchase, and you've been extremely helpful in reminding me why I never really bothered with this place after a decade and a half or so on the internet firearms community. It's a shame, because it's not everyone. But it's people like you who ruin the world for the rest of normal people.

Again, thank you for your time. I am sure you have plenty of it.

I'm sorry your ego needed to be massaged so much

I don't do that.

 

[Familydude]

Profound, profound answer.

Thank you for your help. Your family must be so proud of your arrogance and ignorance. And people wonder why there is such a negative view of this community on all the other firearms websites. I myself came here for some help with a new purchase, and you've been extremely helpful in reminding me why I never really bothered with this place after a decade and a half or so on the internet firearms community. It's a shame, because it's not everyone. But it's people like you who ruin the world for the rest of normal people.

Again, thank you for your time. I am sure you have plenty of it.

Hang in there. The Hide is a great place. Plenty of good info and people willing to help.

 

[Halfnutz]

PRIMARY WEAPONS AR-308 .308 SHIM KIT | Brownells

Hardened steel shims ensure precise fit and correct alignment of flash suppressors, muzzle brakes, and compensators. Large (thick) shim allows 90° of rotation and can be used as a spacer for barrels not having a relief cut behind the threads. Medi...

www.brownells.com

 

[forsyth793]

Carbon on the muzzle crown ??

 

[GH41]

I wouldn't use a crush washer on a brake or suppressor mount. Maybe on a flash hider. I use Precision Armament's ACCU-WASHER system. It's not expensive if you can find a local smith the uses them but a guy doing a one time installation of a cheap MD probably doesn't care about anything but saving money. Peel washers work but look like shit.

 

[BullGear]

Use a peel washer. Once it's set up, they don't need to be compressed every time you put the suppressor back on like a crush washer.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Thinking about it, a crush washer is almost guranteed to not time that break correctly.

So it looks like peel washers, jam nut, or shims.

Or

Accu-Washer® Muzzle Device Alignment System

Precision Armament Accu-Washer Muzzle Alignment System - accurately index muzzle brake, flash hider, suppressor, compensator with perfect bore alignment ...

precisionarmament.com

 

[Paqueo]

Or you might want to drill and tap to make it like this. You can slight turn the muzlebrake to one side to compensate for improper bedding of rifle or shoter position

 

[addertooth]

Crush washers are cheap. I bought a 5 pack of them for about 8 bucks. The classic (non-peel type), are intended for single use.
I would suggest you shoot some groups and zero before you put on the brake, but not for the reason you suspect.
Then, put on the brake, shoot, and compare your groups. The difference is how YOU mechanically controlled recoil while the slug was travelling down the barrel.

The brake reduces the recoil, and you may discover your groups have moved, and are smaller. If they have, it is a sign you had some weaknesses in your hold technique (almost everyone does on some level). For a lot of novice shooters, this is an important data point.

And yes, a brake does make a rifle louder/disturbing to your neighbor. However, all the ranges I go to, require hearing protection. Yesterday, I was shooting next to a guy who had a Ruger which had a brake. Yes, I could feel the effects of his brake, but it was nothing horrible. He also had to deal with the effects of my brake, he didn't seem to be disconcerted. You may have to think about where you place things on your shooting bench, especially light stuff. Make sure it isn't too far forward on the bench.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

OK Bad idea, but at least somebody's thinking about restoring the crush washer to its original shape.

Got a better idea? I'd love to hear it.

I don't care about the cost of the washers, they're cheap enough. I just don't go for one-use items; they're a waste of money.

I've tried shims, and they work, but I really think they could just as easily be considered an excess when (re)mounting a simple brake. My main concern is time involved in the the order, wait, delivery process, especially in days like these. I also think the timing nut is a better approach when timing is an issue, because I do expect that the crown will need to undergo carbon removal occasionally.

Brakes are simply a part of the process of shooting on a line. They're loud, period.

I've been experimenting with linear compensators. IMHO they don't do much at all for recoil, but they do seem to redirect sound downrange, which I consider being polite toward my neighbor; and I've shot next to a braked 338 LM when nobody else would. Mounting a linear compensator doesn't involve crush washers, etc. because there's no timing involved. They do seem to cut back on the perceived racket vs a conventional brake. My main solution for recoil is to stay with chamberings that do not require masochistic self torture, and when necessary, add a Limbsaver.

Hearing protection is an obligation each of us must assume on our own behalf.

Greg

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I put an obnoxious brake on my 300PRC just to clear off the benches next to me.

Just kidding. I got it to reduce recoil. But clearing benches around me is a bonus.

 

[zeus100]

putting a C3 onto a DPMS 308 with a crush washer. , the contact started at about 60degree past TDC, or about 2:30 o'clock. I thought about adding a shim to get contact to the right of TDC , but went ahead and worked the muzzle around, all the way back to TDC and about 2/3 the turn the washer split, ehhh I crushed it.....I am guessing that this is not the actual intent of the crush washer, to split ???

 

[Halfnutz]

putting a C3 onto a DPMS 308 with a crush washer. , the contact started at about 60degree past TDC, or about 2:30 o'clock. I thought about adding a shim to get contact to the right of TDC , but went ahead and worked the muzzle around, all the way back to TDC and about 2/3 the turn the washer split, ehhh I crushed it.....I am guessing that this is not the actual intent of the crush washer, to split ???

It should not split.

 

[BullGear]

putting a C3 onto a DPMS 308 with a crush washer. , the contact started at about 60degree past TDC, or about 2:30 o'clock. I thought about adding a shim to get contact to the right of TDC , but went ahead and worked the muzzle around, all the way back to TDC and about 2/3 the turn the washer split, ehhh I crushed it.....I am guessing that this is not the actual intent of the crush washer, to split ???

No, it should not split.

The proper way of working the brake is to tighten it, go about 10-20 degrees past its tightened location on the barrel, then loosen it and repeat the process. Continue until it hits the indexed spot.