My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

[ReaperDriver]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes!

Hunting private property about 12 years ago and was walking out to my blind when I heard a healthy whack followed by a boom a half second later! Mind you this was a good 30 minutes before legal hunting hours and the hunter was in my blind and did not have permission to be on the property. I yelled and hit the deck and by the time I recovered, which I waited till the sun was up, the hunter had left only his spent 12ga slug shell behind. After that I wore the armor for a few years whenever I was on someone else’s land other than my own or families. Now I just stay on the family plot during Michigan's deer season. </div></div>

Holy Frack! You shoulda shot back!

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

A lot of things went through my mind that day and had I not have had a muzzleloader, I hesitate to think what decisions my younger mind might have made.

 

[tigerhawk]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mram10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can agree it was a blanket statement. 99% of hunters out there should NOT be shooting that far at animals. As for the 1% that shoot VERY frequently and KNOW there rifle and understand ALL variables included, then fine. If it is a guaranteed 100% kill shot, I will take it. If I have ANY doubts, I prefer to get closer. </div></div>

mram10, I have seen plenty of hunters who should not be shooting at animals at ANY range, because they can't even shoot decent groups at any distance at which they shoot. I have seen hunters sighting in their rifles by shooting at a boulder which appeared to be about 4 feet across, and about 5 feet high, at a distance that my Swaro said was 176 yards, and only managing to hit within about 3 feet of the boulder, and then stating that that was "good enough for hunting." I have also seen more than one hunter come perilously close to shooting one of their buddies because they did not check what was in front of their muzzles, and also did not keep their finger off the trigger while loading their rifles. The distance one chooses to hunt at does not say anything about whether they are responsible or irresponsible. Their reliability at producing hits under the conditions they hunt at, as well as whether they handle their firearms safely, do.

I have done extensive shooting at very long range, and I would feel comfortable shooting at an animal at the distance Cory mentioned, provided that I had dope for that rifle, at that altitude, angle, humidity, temperature, and barometric pressure, that I had arrived at by shooting at least several times under very similar conditions. I do not trust ANY ballistic program, and use one only to get the approximate elevation and windage to start with for a given range, after which I shoot a lot to make sure that I know what the rifle will do under those conditions.

Cory, I did not write any of the above to rag on you. Some people will rag on anyone who can do what they cannot do. You practiced far more than many. As far as I am concerned, you did the best thing you could, given the circumstances, and you did make sure that the animal died as quickly as you could. The one thing that I would hope you would take from this is that, though some are better than others, NO ballistic program will take the place of extensive shooting experience in the specific conditions you want to hunt in. Even with the amount of practice you have had under field conditions, you might want to practice even more at some of your hunting locations in the off season, in as many kinds of weather as you can.

 

[DaveV]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Is it just me or does anyone else find the irony in discussing the ethics of hunting four legged targets on a site devoted to hunting two legged targets (real or simulated)? I have never read a single word about the ethics of taking a long shot at a two legged target. In fact, most would agree that any hit on a bad guy is a good hit. After all, this is <span style="text-decoration: underline">Sniper's</span> Hide, not Hunter's Hide. It's all just kinda humorous

 

[tigerhawk]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Dave_, you do have a point.

 

[jrob300]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it just me or does anyone else find the irony in discussing the ethics of hunting four legged targets on a site devoted to hunting two legged targets (real or simulated)? I have never read a single word about the ethics of taking a long shot at a two legged target. In fact, most would agree that any hit on a bad guy is a good hit. After all, this is <span style="text-decoration: underline">Sniper's</span> Hide, not Hunter's Hide. It's all just kinda humorous

</div></div>

Funny you should bring this up, Dave... I was thinking along similar lines last night. Forgive me if I wax philosopical.

The "ethics" of hunting have elevated animals to almost mystical levels of value. I'm sure the majority of real hunters world-wide, would find our politically correct view of hunting quite humorous. For most of the rest of the world, it's dinner and they really don't care how it gets in the pot.

The flip side of this is that the psychology of warfare necessitates the devaluing of human beings so that we might kill them without conscience. Taking pot shots at a "bad guy" or "Haji", at 2700 yds. is high five and back slapping stuff. We really don't care if it was a "clean kill", because he's the bad guy. In that moment, it's easy to forget that to THEM, WE are the "bad guy", and they feel just as justified in murdering us. War is never cut and dried. It's WAY to easy to assume because we're US, that we have the moral high ground. They believe the same thing, don't they?

At the end of the day, the battlefield is littered with men. Sons. Fathers. Husbands. To me, ALL just a little more valuable than a deer or an elk. Yes, even bad guys.

The day we give up on a person, country or race, is the day we give up on peace.

John

 

[az-k9]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Powder temperature......

Ammo left out on the range chills with the ambient temp, or warms if left in the sun.

Out hunting a long drive in a warm truck cabin may warm the powder to a much higher temp than when you were dialing in, or ammo left in an interior clothes pocket will warm to nearly 80 plus degrees....

 

[thekubiaks]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

This one is pretty easy. I'm willing to bet that you input the same velocity at 6500 feet into the ballistics program as you did at 8500 feet. The air is thinner and you will have a higher muzzle velocity (the ballistic programs that I have used don't recompute a new higher 8500 ft muzzle velocity based on your sight in velocity of 6500ft).

I'll bet that you had a slightly higher muzzle velocity at 8500ft than you did at 6500ft and that is why your shots went high. It happens to me when I shoot 1000yd competition. At that range, a 40 fps difference from my previous range sight in will cause my round to be more than a foot high at 1000 yds.

 

[Lindy]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Muzzle velocity is a function only of temperature. Air density does not matter - the powder contains its own oxidizer, which is why firearms will fire under water.

So, whatever it was, that wasn't it.

 

[thekubiaks]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Lindy,
I agree with you but I think this issue is simply being a little off on the muzzle velocity estimation they entered into the ballistics program and perhaps a little uphill or downhill error.

A small error in fps makes a big difference > 800 yards.

Regards...

 

[Lindy]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

The muzzle velocity they entered may well have been wrong - but it wasn't because of the air density. There are lots of other Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

I just had to come back to this thread and congratulate you both on some fine
shooting. To miss and immediately correct shows me you had complete confidence
in your shooting and your gear at the ranges you were hunting.

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Here is a picture the day before the hunt of my Uncles 3 shot group from 1009 yards.

</div></div>

I've been back to this thread four times deciding whether to post or not because I'm not one to get into forum wars, but I have to call bullsh*t on shooting a 2 1/2" group at 1,009 yards with a factory Savage (and I own two custom 6.5x284 Savages with 1/2lb triggers). Having to shoot a cow elk six times is ridiculous, especially with a 7 mag.


Is this the same group as in this video:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...220#Post2100220 ???????

Sure doesn't look like a 2 1/2" group to me.

You have no business shooting elk at 1,000 yards with the shooting witnessed in that video.

 

[edward r homeyer]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Many good suggestion on here.
Maybe try a new ballistic program. One that will take barometric pressure instead of altitude. Altitude settings just give an estimated baro pressure calculated from sea level.
Also your powder may be temp sensetive. When you practice at the range maybe you may shoot ammo that is ambient temp. If you get out of a warm truck or your ammo has been carried next to your body all day it could be 20 to 40 degrees warmer than when you normally shoot.
The angle of your shot could be the problem also.
Did you shoot and record a cold bore shot everyday? And record that data?
Alot of us calculate our ability to hit long range after we have taken who knows how many shots to get on target. It is the first and if you are lucky the second shot that really matters.

 

[jrob300]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quickdraw40</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been back to this thread four times deciding whether to post or not because I'm not one to get into forum wars, but I have to call bullsh*t on shooting a 2 1/2" group at 1,009 yards with a factory Savage (and I own two custom 6.5x284 Savages with 1/2lb triggers). Having to shoot a cow elk six times is ridiculous, especially with a 7 mag.


Is this the same group as in this video:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...220#Post2100220 ???????

Sure doesn't look like a 2 1/2" group to me.

You have no business shooting elk at 1,000 yards with the shooting witnessed in that video. </div></div>

With all due respect... reading comprehension FTW. If you go back and look at his posts (as you apparently already have) you'll note that Cory (Skyking) shot 6 times at 700+ yds with a GAP 7STW. His uncle took 2 hits to put his cow down.

Valid question on the video, but let's get the facts straight. Makes it easier to separate the trolls from the serious contributers. I'm sure you understand if you've hung out here very long.

John

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

I can read fine, thank you. I made two seperate statements: 1. called bullsh*t on the group. 2. stated it doesn't take six well placed shots to down a cow elk.

 

[jrob300]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quickdraw40</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can read fine, thank you. </div></div>

Then go back and read the part where the second shot was a double lung shot. That's a fatal shot. I don't think you're adding value here.

John

 

[Skyking]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Thanks guys for all your input. We tried to take the steel out today too where we shot the elk. Well there was two feet of snow, and the Razor's, and jeep did not get very far. We are going back on Saturday with the snowmobiles to try and get in there.

To clarify a few things. NO! That three shot pictured is not from the videos. Like I said. That is from the day before the hunt. I made those videos back when we where load developing the month before. To be honest. I could really care less if you guys believe it or not. He did it, and I watched him do it. Even if I had it on film you would still cry wolf. Just like you guys did with the guy that shot the 2700 yards on film with his 338. There is always someone. That is just the reason, I will now never post the video of the hunt. I am here to try and learn all that I can. I have to realize that a lot of you guys have never hunted. And don't understand. That is all for the HUNTING post not here. This is about my dope.

Like John says. Your not adding value.

Until I can go shoot at those same conditions, I can only guess what I did wrong.

I am shooting H1000. One of the most temperature stable powders out there. The bullets where in the back of the truck in my backpack. cold.... They stayed there until I loaded them in my gun. Then my gun was with me in the side by side (Razor). They never had a chance to get warm.

I have yet to be able to see any change in a cold bore shot in my gun. 100 yards or 1000. Every time I go out shooting I try and say. I have one shot to hit this target. That is why after my uncles three shot group on the steel. One was the first shot of the day. The next two where to just see if he could acutely hit close to the dot again. We moved to different ranges to make sure our dope was good. We would only shot one shot per rock. No adjustments to get on target.

So I have a few different Ballistics programs now. This is what they all say

(Practice Range Conditions)
Day before the hunt.
Range 800 yards
temp 56
station pressure 24.53
Rh% 45

Bulletflight....-136in 16.20 MOA (Shot Confirmed)

Ballistic FTE...-135in 16.16 MOA

Exbal NightForce...-136.9in 16.25 MOA


(Hunting Conditions)
Temp 30
Pressure 21.98 station pressure.
RH% 60
Range 800 yards

Bulletflight...-133.7in 16.0 MOA

Ballistic FTE...-132.52in 15.82 MOA

Exbal NightForce...-134.2in 16.0 MOA

Also when I was in Texas Hunting last week. 2200 feet,60 Deg,20%RH. I Shot at 450 yards. That was the farthest we could get. My dope from Bulletflight was dead on. I did not have the other Ballistic programs with me at the time. I know at that distance it is really not far enough to tell.

Texas
2200 feet Elevation
60 Deg
20% RH

I am thinking I was high during the hunt for a few reasons.

1.Maybe not the right range.
2.Bad info into the ballistics.
3.A little up or down angle.
4.Not dialing all the parallax out of my scope.

I will let you know how it goes on Saturday if we get out.

Cory

 

[edward r homeyer]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

I have also noticed that I will typically shoot .1 or .2 mils high if I don't properly pre-load my bipods. This is something I take into account when shooting from alternate positions.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

I have seen my heavy brl'd SS 300WM shoot high when cold. I posted a few questions about it last year. The only thing that could have caused it was the brl constricts the bore slightly, when cold, thereby increasing pressure, & therefor velocity. I had a 50 fps increase in velocity from 70* to 35*. Same powder you were using.(H-1000, & same with retumbo)

 

[jrob300]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Cory,

Not sure if this helps or not, but I've been using JBM with Litz's numbers for my theoretical ballistic data. I shot with MontanaMarine a couple weeks ago. JBM again was very close at 1915 and 2075 yds.

John

 

[csloop]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

New to the long range stuff but love it and loving the site gaining alot of knowledge. To the folks out there complaining of poor shot placement blah blah poor bullet performance just a thought here. You said you shot the 180 bergers where you using their target or hunting. The hunting ons are great, took a deer out at 1150 yards this year with my buddies 300 winnie 190 pills and it was absolutely devistating had to get rid of the 308 and step up to the 300 lol. Cory I have watched all of your videos and enjoy them wish I had a place to shoot that far, the farthest I have is 1600 yards.Anyways good luck on all of your hunting adventures I hope to get a long range kill on video this year.

 

[shanem81]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

I realize this isn't any help but after reading this whole thing i can't wonder why you would try to take another shot after a clean miss the first time. You would have to have known that something went wrong and you have no idea what it was, that would be the point were you say 'Not Today'.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One other thought. I do NOT want to make this thread a pissing contest about the ethics of LR hunting, but if events occurred as described, I would argue that his second shot *WAS* a lung shot, and would have proved to have been fatal *eventually* therefore NOT inhumane. No gut shots or holes through kneecaps.

Shooting 5 more times proved to be MORE humane, because it means that the cow was not wandering around waiting to die from asphyxia. Not to mention the fact that it did not then need to be tracked for a half hour.

I shot a 350 lb. mule deer through the heart at 75 yards on the first shot. He bolted. My hunting partner and I both put 4 more rounds in him in quick succession, all in the vitals. Why? He was headed at full speed for thick brambles and neither one of us wanted to track him in there or drag him out. We wanted him DOWN.

Big mulies and elk are tough animals. Add a little adrenaline and sometimes you have to convince them that they really are dead, they just don't know it yet.

.02

John</div></div>

This is exactly right. Carry on Skyking....

edit: holy thread revival...didnt notice how old this thread was before...

 

[jwoolf]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sumpter Steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not trying to bag on ya but in my own personal opinion (FWIW) <span style="font-weight: bold">if it takes you six rounds to drop an animal you have no business shooting at it. It doesn't seem like a very humane way to harvest an animal. </span> I was brought up hunting but have never taken six rounds to dispatch an animal. I suggest you work on the basics before trying for advanced (LR) hunting. That being said the extra 2K feet of elevation 6500-8500 could throw ya off a foot or so at roughly 800 yards. Did you re-zero at 8500? </div></div>

Ditto. Shooting elk at 800-1K to "see what we could do" makes me sick.

As far as your shooting, I'd recommend a Kestrel 4XXX series, a btter ballistics program that uses DA instead of a lot of variables that can have their input mucked. Are you running ACI's on your rifles? because angles matter at distance?

I assume you logged your dope from the encounter so you now have real data on what your rifle and load do in those conditions so the next animal you may take doesn't have such a f*cked up time dying...... </div></div>

I agree too. An elk has to be hit correctly to take it down... it's a large animal and has to be hit with sufficient energy to harvest it.

It bothers me watching folks not taking game down in an ethical manner.

IMHO, your 7mm isn't hitting with the energy required to take an elk at 1000yds ethically to begin with... then add not hitting it in the right place and you have a sufferring animal running off somewhere and, you're 5/8ths a mile away trying to see where it went...... Just because you can shoot at something that that range doesn't mean you should.

If you don't know enough about your rifle and ballistics and, you MISS the entire animal on the first round... You have NO BUSINESS AT ALL shooting at one at that range.

If you don't KNOW where you're going to hit the animal, don't fucking shoot at it.

A coyote or a pig... ok, those are tearing up my land or killing livestock or pets... yep, I'll shoot those wherever, whenever but, not a game animal.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

I guess jwoolf doesn't bowhunt, and has never missed anything.

 

[hognuts]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

This all strikes me as funny, I have not had the opportunity to take an extreme long range shot at an animal, but would not hesitate if the opportunity arose. I took a mulie up in Dillon Montana a few years back with a throat shot with the Barrett

at 650 yards. (well within my comfort zone with that rifle)

I also shoot on a regular basis and I catch hell from a lot of folks (some family members) who seem to be totally appalled that I even practice shooting my AR500 elk target at distances in anticipation of "if" the need should arise...the thing that strikes me as funny is that most of the people that I hear that from shoot there rifles a few times a year ("I set it three inches high at a hundred and I am good") I don't argue with their method as I grew up in Montana and that is how I was taught also, but I feel much more confident in hunting shots now that I have been shooting Tactical precision matches at MOA size targets at distance, it makes an elk look like a pretty generous target.

The other thing I often hear is that "it takes the sport out of it" If it is so f-ing easy then you do it! Any time you are shooting an animal with a rifle, you have the obvious advantage, it seems humerous to me that if you are a better shot and have practiced at longer ranges then it automatically makes you either un-ethical, or un-sportsmanlike. Misses happen at long ranges and short ranges, but I don't think you will ever get past this arguement, people are set in their ways, me personally, if I feel comfortable with the shot, I am damn sure gonna take it!

1 shot, 1 near decapitation! 650 yards with the Barrett, didn't waste any meat and didn't know what hit him!

To the OP, keep up the good work, you took the shot, saw your impact and did what you needed to do. As far as the software, I so far have not found any that was consistant enough in all terrain/conditions/elevations to trust it 100% I prefer to work off hard dope and do some shooting in the area where I will be hunting if possible. (not always feasible) Good luck

 

[Skyking]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hognuts</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This all strikes me as funny, I have not had the opportunity to take an extreme long range shot at an animal, but would not hesitate if the opportunity arose. I took a mulie up in Dillon Montana a few years back with a throat shot with the Barrett

at 650 yards. (well within my comfort zone with that rifle)

I also shoot on a regular basis and I catch hell from a lot of folks (some family members) who seem to be totally appalled that I even practice shooting my AR500 elk target at distances in anticipation of "if" the need should arise...the thing that strikes me as funny is that most of the people that I hear that from shoot there rifles a few times a year ("I set it three inches high at a hundred and I am good") I don't argue with their method as I grew up in Montana and that is how I was taught also, but I feel much more confident in hunting shots now that I have been shooting Tactical precision matches at MOA size targets at distance, it makes an elk look like a pretty generous target.

The other thing I often hear is that "it takes the sport out of it" If it is so f-ing easy then you do it! Any time you are shooting an animal with a rifle, you have the obvious advantage, it seems humerous to me that if you are a better shot and have practiced at longer ranges then it automatically makes you either un-ethical, or un-sportsmanlike. Misses happen at long ranges and short ranges, but I don't think you will ever get past this arguement, people are set in their ways, me personally, if I feel comfortable with the shot, I am damn sure gonna take it!

1 shot, 1 near decapitation! 650 yards with the Barrett, didn't waste any meat and didn't know what hit him!

To the OP, keep up the good work, you took the shot, saw your impact and did what you needed to do. As far as the software, I so far have not found any that was consistant enough in all terrain/conditions/elevations to trust it 100% I prefer to work off hard dope and do some shooting in the area where I will be hunting if possible. (not always feasible) Good luck </div></div>

I could not of said it better myself. This subject will be a never ending argument. That is way I will never post the footage of last years two elk kills.

I know this is an old topic but,I learned from my mistakes. Did a ton more practicing and tweaking of the software a bit. Got a first round kill 901 yards with the 7wsm this last year. Bang dead! As you can see in this video. First cold bore shot at 1000 then just moved my way down to 600 yards. Just more practice.

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[Sharpsman]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

All I'll say is Boy Oh Boy!!

 

[VKC]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Cant?
High angle shooting?
Powder temperature velocity variation?
Different lot of bullets, powder or brass?
Copper fouled vs. clean barrel..lubricity?

 

[Willyz_54]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

tag for a closer read later.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Skyking, thank you for sharing. I enjoyed the thread. Hog, your the man. It was fun watching beat up steel at 1 mile with your .50 BMG this past weekend!

 

[hognuts]

Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

Nice shooting with you too brother! That 7 SAUM is shooting well! The 6.5 was surprisingly consistent at that range also!