My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

A

alpha6164

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 3, 2008
973
30
Jacksonville, FL
#1
I had ran into a problem and wanted to know if you guys had any inputs. I have been reloading for sometime. I use a Hornady Lock N Load progressive press and my 308 dies are RCBS. I reloaded like 50 rounds of 175smk with 44.0gr of varget. The COAL was 2.810". 15 or so out of the 50 rounds wont chamber. Some of the rounds the bolt wont even go forward all the way, some the bolt will seat but the it will not go past 1pm.

I pulled the bullets out of these rounds and the empty brass by itself wont chamber either so i know it is not a overall length issue. The brass all fit inside a Wilson 308 gauge and are not sticking out so it is not a trimming issue. Looking at these brass i can see that the shoulders dont have as sharp of an angle and are not as set back as the good ones or factory 308 rounds. These were once or twice fired Win brass. I took out the deprimer pin out of the sizing die and made sure to lower the die as low as possible where it is touching the shell plate and resized the same brass and it still wont chamber. This is where my expertise comes to an end lol. I dont understand why some are ok and some not. It would make more sense if none of the brass was sized properly. And even more so why this all of the sudden happened and i have never encountered this?
 
#2
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

Are the neck walls too thick maybe? What kind of rifle are they going into?

Pics might help here, not quite getting your description of the shoulders looking funny. Measure them from base to shoulder against the good ones. Have you been using the Hornady press long, does it have any play in it that could cause some cases to not get sized as much as others?
 
#3
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

I've been reloading .308 for about a decade. I used to own an FN-FAL in select-fire and have reloaded thousands of rounds (if not tens of thousands) using a Dillon carbide die. I always use a dillon case-gage to check for proper resizing. It has a little step built into the base that gets the case within a thousandth or two of SAAMI specs when set right. I've never had a problem like you describe EXCEPT when I first started reloading with a Lee loader (the kind you use a hammer to resize the brass) and had a friend explain to me that I needed to trim the cases. Some of them were getting out to 2.020" and longer. Trim-to length is 2.005"

You don't mention CASE length. What are you trimming them to?

Could be your caliper needs recalibrating too.

Once you get this figured out, consider a neck-sizing die too, brass lasts longer.

Just some off-the-cuff suggestions, gotta run.
 
#4
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are the neck walls too thick maybe? What kind of rifle are they going into?

Pics might help here, not quite getting your description of the shoulders looking funny. </div></div>


I will try to post pics later since i am at the office but i have tried it in two different bolt guns so it is not a rifle issue. I also tried shooting some of these rounds (before i knew they were bad) in my FNAR and ended up with bolt not closing either so it is definitely the rounds and not the firearm itself.
 
#5
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You don't mention CASE length. What are you trimming them to?

Could be your caliper needs recalibrating too.

Once you get this figured out, consider a neck-sizing die too, brass lasts longer.

Just some off-the-cuff suggestions, gotta run. </div></div>


I have not trimmed the cases at all. And the only reason is that i drop the cases in the Wilson 308 gauge and the case is not sticking out on either end where it shows what the max length should be.


Wilsongagebetweengoandnogage308bras.jpg
 
#6
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

Is your rifle factory chambered or does it have a custom chamber. I have some rifles that will not chamber a case but the case will pass a Wilson gage, they have a tight chamber at the base so I have to use a small base die.

Measure the cases that will in chamber at the base and compare to the ones that will not ( look for scuffing near the base or color the base of the case with a marker pen then try to chamber).
 
#7
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

The three rifles that it was used on are all factory. A Tikka T3 lite, A Tikka Tactical and an FNAR (semi 308). All three had issues. I have not tried it with my GAP 308.
 
#8
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

+1 to Unsichter..... I run the same load thru sereval 308's and have had the same problem. A small base die solved that problem, i run the brass thru it about every three reloads. A wide sharpie is a must in the reloading tool box aswell.
 
#9
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alpha6164</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had ran into a problem and wanted to know if you guys had any inputs. I have been reloading for sometime. I use a Hornady Lock N Load progressive press and my 308 dies are RCBS. I reloaded like 50 rounds of 175smk with 44.0gr of varget. The COAL was 2.810". 15 or so out of the 50 rounds wont chamber. Some of the rounds the bolt wont even go forward all the way, some the bolt will seat but the it will not go past 1pm.

I pulled the bullets out of these rounds and the empty brass by itself wont chamber either so i know it is not a overall length issue. The brass all fit inside a Wilson 308 gauge and are not sticking out so it is not a trimming issue. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">Looking at these brass i can see that the shoulders dont have as sharp of an angle and are not as set back as the good ones or factory 308 rounds. These were once or twice fired Win brass. I took out the deprimer pin out of the sizing die and made sure to lower the die as low as possible where it is touching the shell plate and resized the same brass and it still wont chamber.</span></span> This is where my expertise comes to an end lol. I dont understand why some are ok and some not. It would make more sense if none of the brass was sized properly. And even more so why this all of the sudden happened and i have never encountered this? </div></div>

Alpha,

Without getting preachy, you are over FL resizing your brass. Brass flows and pressures differ. Your reloads may develop an average pressure of say 60K PSI. But some of your reloads may be at 65K, and some at 55K. On ones generating higher pressure the more brass will flow forward towards the neck.

When you FL size them, the excess brass has to go somewhere, and it usually winds up presenting a slight bulge right at the base of the shoulder. It does not happen on all your cases, because the brass has flowed differently between them.

On the ones that won't chamber, you cannot fix them by resizing them again. You have set/bumped your shoulders back too far. They are toast.

The key to FL resizing is to FL resize "as little" as possible, and still get the all pieces of brass to chamber. It's a trial and error thing.
 
#10
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

I'm not saying BobinNC is wrong, but it sure seems odd to me. Most reloaders who never get to an advanced stage set their sizing dies just like you describe. After all, that's what the instructions tell you to do. They load for years or decades like this and never have a problem. Heck, I loaded for a decade or more like this before I ever heard of adjusting for proper headspace and I never ruined a case in any caliber. I don't see how a bulge (no matter what the source) could survive another pass through the sizer. If there were a fat spot in the brass, the die would force the excess to the inside, not the outside. By setting your die like the instructions tell you, you might be setting the shoulder back more than necessary, but not so far back that you ruined a case.

At this point I'm with Unsichtbar. I'd be measuring the heck out of everything trying to find where the difference is between the good cases and the bad ones - both lengths and diameters. Sometimes measuring diameters and such with calipers is really tough because the slightest variation in how you apply the calipers will give you different numbers even when you measure the exact same spot several times. Do you know anyone with a small base sizer you could borrow to test out that theory? If not, Redding makes a small base body die for $32 HERE. That's probably cheaper than a full sizing die (one worth having anyway).

ETA: My first thought was that your longer cases might be hitting the taper crimp portion of the seating die while the shorter ones weren't. That can cause a bulge at the shoulder if the crimp is too much. But the second run through the sizer would have cured that problem.
 
#11
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

OldTex,

My first reloads, where cal 243 Win in 1972. I followed the FL die instructions to the letter, and formed 50 rounds, none of which would chamber. I put a bulge in every case just at the junction of the shoulder and body of the case. And no you cannot resize it out.

Remember dies have min and max dimensions, same as rifle chambers. When the min's and max's go the same way, you have no problems. But when a chamber is on the MAX side of go, and a die is on the MIN side of go, then problems occur. And you can over bump your shoulders with a die and a chamber at the wrong ends of go.

And brass will spring back from the FL sizing. And spring just enough, to cause a bulge that can be measured with a micrometer.
 
#13
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

Ok, so after looking for my caliper for a few days i finally found it
smile.gif
I pulled a total of four loaded cases. 2 that would chamber and 2 that wouldnt. Taking the bullets out did not make a difference. The original two that didnt chamber still didnt chamber. So then i started measuring. Basically i measured the case length, measured the case at the base, shoulder and case neck.

Everything looks pretty much within range as to 308 case dimensions except the two that didnt chamber have a case length of 2.018" and 2.020". The other two that chamber fine are 2.007" and 2.008". So at this point, i am thinking that it is a case length issue. I am gonna start up my Giraud trimmer and trim these and see what happens. Hopefully that is what it is
smile.gif
 
#14
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

So now i am more confused that before. I went ahead and trimmed the cases to 2.005" and they still dont chamber. I have measured them against other cases that have been once fired that DO chamber and i really dont see anything that is out of the ordinary. I took out a brand new case that has never been fired which obviously chambers just fine and took some measurements to compare the difference. Obviously, the new case does has smaller dimensions pretty much in all areas. But the one that does not chamber has its dimensions that still fall within SAAMI specs.

I have taken a picture of both cases and the measurements i took at the opening, neck, shoulder, half way up the case and at the base. The case on the left is the one that does not fit the chamber and the one on the right is the new case. Are there any other measurements that i need to do or am missing. This is really starting to frustrate me as to why some of these cases do not chamber. Thanks for all inputs.






fb68648b.jpg
 
#15
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

I have the exact same issue.

Some 308's are very difficult to close the bolt. They fit in in the case guage just fine.
I tried screwing down the die all the way to get a good FL resize. It happens about 1 in 20 rounds.
 
#17
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is your case head to shoulder/datum on the ones that chamber vs those that don't ?

</div></div>

I am sorry if this sounds dumb but what is that and how do you measure it? I tried to search on google bnad could not find any diagrams to show. Can you explain where this measurement is taken?
 
#18
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

It will measure from the bottom of your case to the shoulder (length not diameter as you've done above), see link. You don't need the whole chamber tool, just the .308 comparator body.

I suspect there will be a measurable difference and that is partially reflected in the OAL being so large between the cases which chamber and those that don't.

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1900731
 
#19
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It will measure from the bottom of your case to the shoulder (length not diameter as you've done above), see link. You don't need the whole chamber tool, just the .308 comparator body.

I suspect there will be a measurable difference and that is partially reflected in the OAL being so large between the cases which chamber and those that don't.

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1900731 </div></div>


Thank you. I actually ordered that from Midway yesterday. I am pretty sure that you are right that is the issue. Assuming it is, is there a way to correct it or just to toss the brass. I obviously dont care about a few brass. Just wondering from now on, should i be resizing, and the running every single brass thru a comparator? Is this a normal routine?
 
#20
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

I believe the magic "datum" for 308 family cartridges is .400".

So, imagine an extremely thin ring .400" in diameter. Drop that ring over the case mouth. Where it catches and stops on the shoulder now defines the datum plane. A measurement from the casehead, up to the datum plane is the magic number for headspace.

I'm curious: Can you describe how the bolt "feels" when you try to chamber one of these bad rounds? Can you get the bolt all the way forward and BEGIN to rotate the bolt lown into the locked position? Does it feel like it ALMOST gets there? Do you think you could force in in there? (Don't try it!!!)

Rub the case down with a sharpie and attempt to chamber it a few times, being mindful of how the case is clocked each time - keep it consistent. For example, keep the "8" in "308" on the casehead pointed at 3 o'clock each time. When attempting to chamber, put a bit of force on it, but don't FORCE it.

You will hopefully get a rub mark that will point us in the right direction.
 
#21
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

Another thought:

Do you have any kind of lip or burr on the outside of the case mouth?

I've ever had rounds tough/impossible to chamber because I had left a bur from case trimming, and didn't totally remove it from deburring.
 
#22
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

I am far from an expert but most would use this tool to set up their dies to bump the shoulder back a fraction. You wouldn't have to measure each case if you set your dies up the same each time and if you consistently bump after each firing...ie if you fire 1x, 2x, 3x and then re-size you might have to measure. Search the forum, loads of better advice on using this tool than i can give you.

BTW was your deprimer pin and expander ball removed the first time you re-sized, or did you remove it only after the problem occured ?
 
#23
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

Turbo,
Thanks for the inputs. The bolt does go forward all the way and can rotate the bolt to about 1-2 o'clock but i get resitance. If i was getting resitance at 3 or 4'oclock i may say that i can lock the bolt down but it just doesnt seem so.


I am going to try the sharpie technique and see if i come up with anything. The other thing i notice is that the thickness of the case neck of the new brass and the one that wont chamber is different. The new brass looks very thin and measures at 0.012" while thickness of the "bad" brass is 0.015". I have not compared it to other once fired brass that do chamber.



288e4863.jpg
 
#24
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

You need a tool that measured the datum line to the base. There are a few out there. RCBS makes their precision mic. I prefer to us the Hornady style system. Even better, Sinclair brought out their own shoulder bump system that is better than Hornady's.

This is what it looks like compared to the Hornady. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1108079

Here's a blog how to set headspace. There are links in the blog to the Sinclair products.
http://blog.sinclairintl.com/2011/01/31/setting-up-your-full-length-sizing-die/

You need a digital caliper. You deprime (no sizing) a fired case from your rifle and put the case into the gauge and measure. You zero your calipers (0.00) on the measurement. You then full length resize the case. Put the case back into the gauge. You should see your shoulder bump measurement. Ideally, you should see a measurement of -0.001" to -0.003". If you see any more than that, you are bumping the shoulder too far back, you'll have to back your sizing die off a bit. If your F/L sizing die is not bumping the shoulder at all, you'll see no - movement. If there's no minus (-) movement or you see a plus (+) movement, you are not bumping the shoulder back enough and you have to turn your die in about 1/12th of a turn more. You do this until you get the correct readings. You;ll need about 10 fired cases fired in your rifle. The reason you deprime the case is so you don't get a false reading from primer protrusion, it can give false readings.

Most of the time, reloaders don't put enough shoulder bump into the F/L resizing. That could be why you are getting a few cases not chambering.

Here's a video on the Hornady gauge to show how it's used. I prefer the Sinclair system over the Hornady because Sinclair uses a steel gauge instead of an aluminum one that Hornady uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-UrMTyJ1_E

without using some kind of measurement showing you shoulder bump, you are just GUESSING at what the issue is. A digital caliper will show you the actual numbers! It will all make sense after that.

The only reason i don't like the RCBS precision mic is it comes in one caliber for $ 45.00. The Sinclair and Hornady systems can be adapted to many other calibers by just buying the proper insert and it is less expensive. I do prefer to read digital numbers on the caliper.

Since you are getting into precision reloading, you need the proper tools.
 
#26
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

He said they passed in a Wilson drop gage, which is odd. Note case on left at base of neck .342 case on right .334. All the other measurements are close. Was the case on left not sized all the way down?
 
#27
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unsichtbar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He said they passed in a Wilson drop gage, which is odd. Note case on left at base of neck .342 case on right .334. All the other measurements are close. Was the case on left not sized all the way down? </div></div>


Case on the left was definitely FL sized all the way down. This was with the die touching the shell plate holder and 1/8 turned in. It is hard to tell in the picture, but the unfired brass seems to have a sharper angle at the point where the neck meets the shoulder, where as in the "bad" brass is not as sharp which makes sense as to why it is thicker compared to the new brass.
 
#28
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

Wow, what a great thread. Maybe should be a sticky. Im at work right now and cant get to my bench until Saturday morn.

I will re-read this carefully too, and post my results along with Alpha.

I already have a comparitor, but comparing a fired case to a resized case seems to make sense.
 
#29
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

Alpha look at photo on the left you can see were the die stopped on the neck ( a ring)and the shoulder is not sharp. If you had the die all the way down, the only thing I can think of is the shell holder is high, sell holder are not all equal. Of course do do not want to over size, but that should have shown up on wilso drop gage.
 
#30
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

One thing else you should look at. Check the depth of your primer pin decapper protrusion. If it is set a bit too low (sticking out too far), it can hinder (hit the bottom of the case web) that last few .000 of your sizing die. The pin should protrude about 3/16" (.187"). An easy way to adjust the pin length is to adjust to 3 pennies thickness, this is about .170". Some people have the pin out way too far and the pin holder can hit the case web.

A reloader on another forum was getting some errant shoulder bumps and that was his problem. It was driving him crazy. He thought his F/L die wasn't sizing down enough and he was bottoming out his die without getting the desired shoulder bump. He adjusted the pin back a bit and was good.
 
#31
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

I think I pretty much solved the problem. Came home and tried the sharpie technique and ran the FL size and I see that I am not even getting close to the shoulder. So I keep adjusting the die 1/8th of a turn and slowly but surely I start getting closet and the bolt was working easier. Eventually I hit a sweet spot that the bolt would close with mod resistance and another 1/8th turn and the bolt closes the way it should just a slight hint of resistance. Tried this on three other brass that had same issues and now thy chamber just fine. I am not sure what happened and how my setting got so off track cause I use the Lock N Load but either way we are good. Thanks for all the replies and inputs
smile.gif
 
#32
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

Glad you've got it figured. Now when you get your Hornady gauge, you can do some measuring with the digital calipers and set your shoulder bump precisely. Between -.001" -.003" for bolt guns and -.003" -.005" for autos. Going over
-.005" will beat your brass up.

Once you start using the gauge, you'll wonder how you reloaded without one.

I wish we could come up with a sticky on this subject since it is asked weekly.
 
#33
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alpha6164</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So now i am more confused that before. I went ahead and trimmed the cases to 2.005" and they still dont chamber. I have measured them against other cases that have been once fired that DO chamber and i really dont see anything that is out of the ordinary. </div></div>

You have written down a set of diametrical measurements.

You problem has something to do with longitudinal measurements (not shown).

Hint: Dimaeter (and diametrical) are measured across the radial axis of the case
Longitudinal measurements are measured lengthwise long the case.

The most likely cause is that the shoulder is not pushed back far enough.
 
#34
Re: My 308 reloads wont chamber??? Help please!

So is it better to FL size every time? I FL and then just neck size it after that, while monitoring case length, etc. Usually though, once I FL and fire it I just neck size after that. Is that wrong? I inspect my brass prior to reloading, before and after neck sizing. I had this problem with 3 cases in my life and I still have em, with loads still in them. I'm not a novice at reloading, but I'm definately not a pro either. I don't have all the equipment posted in this thread and I haven't had any reason to get it at this point, per say, but it has definately opened my eyes alittle to this problem. Definately an interesting thread.

I can see the difference in the neck area in the photos, or at least they appear different. I'm pretty sure this is the same problem that I had with the prior mentioned 3 rounds and it sounds to be the same thing that I thought of when I had the problems. I'm pretty sure that the three rounds that I have are FGMM brass. I've always had a hard time resizing that brass, especially if it was not originally fired in my rifle. I think when I had this problem in my Grendel, I simply dismantled the round and ran it through the resizer again, alittle deeper I think, and it fixed the problem, but it doesn't sound like you can go deeper. I've never really had to set up my die that tight, unless I was necking something down to get a complete resize of the brass. Interesting to see what the fix is though!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Mumzergadol
7PRC problem. Brand new prefit barrel, reputable smith, bolt wont close on freshly sized new brass
Replies
10
Views
400
Mumzergadol
Mumzergadol
Edsel
SEMIAUTOS - SHOULDERS GETTING BUMPED UPON CHAMBERING
Replies
14
Views
398
Edsel
Edsel
C
6.5 Creedmoor Brass NOT CHAMBERING
Replies
34
Views
929
DownhillFromHere
D
U
Rounds not chambering
Replies
46
Views
1K
Edsel
Edsel
Basic user
Neck Tension Inconsistencies on Lapua 6.5CM Brass
Replies
41
Views
742
Sooner Sniper
Sooner Sniper
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts