My AR10 experiment.

[mzvarner]

I had LRI build me a very nice Rem700 a number of years ago, and ever since then I have only been able to think of how much fun a semi auto platform would be. So fast forward a number of years, and Aero Precision has a sale i just can't pass up on. I also thought this would be a good time to see just how big of difference reloading makes. I opted to do a "budget" build sticking with the base model of all components (excluding the optic) while a buddy really wanted to do the same thing but he opted for nicer components and shooting factory ammo. His build includes the enhanced matched reciever set, nicer BCG, Geissle trigger, and SS barrel.

For now i plan on swapping my K624i back and forth. Im glad i went with the atlas handguard because it just barely left enough room to run the optic/ rings setup i had.

I will update next week the results of factory ammo. Hopefully it wont blow up as this is my first custom AR build as well.

Edit:
Been a while, so ill try to update this thread as it seemed to have some interest.

Had some issues with initial sight in. My zero was jumping all over, ultimately I think the barrel just needed a bit of break in. I also got tired of swapping optics, so I picked up a gen 1 PST 6-24. Looks a little goofy with the cantilever so I may be looking for a slightly lower 1 piece mount in the future. Also, the only true issue I am having is FTF/double feeds. I think the buffer spring may be a bit too stiff.

Been shooting 168gr FGMM, decided to chrono it over my Magneto Speed. 3 5 shot strings. Avg velocity was consitent, but SD was 3-11.4.

Brass, dies, etc are on their way. Up next will be an OCW using 155g Palma SMK in Hornady brass over Varget.

 

[Reload10]

You're going to want higher rings... In addition, even with that rail, you should get the optic mount 100% on the receiver.

 

[DaleGribble82]

You're going to want higher rings... In addition, even with that rail, you should get the optic mount 100% on the receiver.

Absolutely agree.

 

[yej0001]

Details on the other parts used in your rifle? Keep us informed on the results.

 

[RidiculousMetacarpus]

Your neck is going to hate you as soon as you hit the range lol. Go 1.4 or 1.5" rings, seriously.

Agree with other poster, mount rings directly on receiver and only the receiver - no exceptions. This will also allow you to set the rings further apart to make it more rigid.

 

[mzvarner]

Details on the other parts used in your rifle? Keep us informed on the results.

Aero M5 stripped receiver set (not enhanced)
Aero Atlas 15 inch M- lock hand guard
Aero 20 inch CMV barrel with rifle length gas system
Aero 308 phosphate complete BCG
Aero Low profile gas block, rifle length gas tube
Aero Enhanced 308 lower parts kit, forward assist, and ejection port cover
Aero Carbine length buffer tube and H1 buffer
Magpul MOE SL stock
Unsure about muzzle device

Your neck is going to hate you as soon as you hit the range lol. Go 1.4 or 1.5" rings, seriously.

Appreciate the input, but the pic is not that reliable. It is a bad angle, and posted quickly from excitement. The optic rests completely on the upper receiver, the rings are just spaced wide from how it was on my bolt gun. The height was surprisingly comfortable, more so than the bolt gun. But I have a feeling vibration and recoil may cause the optic bell and hand guard to contact (No Bueno!)

 

[DaleGribble82]

Aero M5 stripped receiver set (not enhanced)
Aero Atlas 15 inch M- lock hand guard
Aero 20 inch CMV barrel with rifle length gas system
Aero 308 phosphate complete BCG
Aero Low profile gas block, rifle length gas tube
Aero Enhanced 308 lower parts kit, forward assist, and ejection port cover
Aero Carbine length buffer tube and H1 buffer
Magpul MOE SL stock
Unsure about muzzle device



Appreciate the input, but the pic is not that reliable. It is a bad angle, and posted quickly from excitement. The optic rests completely on the upper receiver, the rings are just spaced wide from how it was on my bolt gun. The height was surprisingly comfortable, more so than the bolt gun. But I have a feeling vibration and recoil may cause the optic bell and hand guard to contact (No Bueno!)

I doubt you’ll have any issue with the rail and the bell making contact. Let us know if you do please.

 

[flyright]

I use a 20.6 moa Spuhr (4602) mount with a 56mm objective (ATACR 5-25 F1) on a flat rail and it is tight - objective to rail wise - 1/8" clearance and shaved obj cap. But, the 1.5" height is not a problem for cheek weld - at least for me. That jam to the non rail handguard is interestingly low but seems to work fine on the Gen 2 RPR's. Do get all your mount on the receiver, though.

 

[jda2631]

Appreciate the input, but the pic is not that reliable. It is a bad angle, and posted quickly from excitement. The optic rests completely on the upper receiver

Unless you have moved it since you took that picture, your front ring is mounted to the handguard, not your receiver.

 

[DRAM40A1]

You mention an H1 buffer. You mean a standard AR 15 H1 buffer???
You need a 308 Carbine buffer and spring to use the 7” Carbine tube on a 308...

 

[BCP]

well assuming the handguard is straight with the receiver (some of those aero sets are basically one piece) it's probably fine but you *will* want a 1pc mount eventually because you will need a bit more room for your head and eyeball

 

[mzvarner]

Updated original post for those that were interested.

 

[mzvarner]

Finally settled on 46.1 gr of varget in Hornady brass topped with 155gr palma match king. I am getting a MV of 2819. I may try to find the next node after I fire all the cases.

My accuracy dropped off around 200-250 rounds. After a good cleaning my coldbore was more accurate than the 6.5 bolt gun, but overall groupings are still not as tight. That being said, when I can read the wind I can repeatedly hit a full size IPSC torso at 1k as long as mirage is not too bad. I have issues with clarity past 500 yards with the Vortex.

 

[1500varmint]

Thanks for the update.

How is your friend making out with the more expensive build?

 

[mzvarner]

Thanks for the update.

How is your friend making out with the more expensive build?

He has not really shot it much so i am not sure. I don't think he has 60 rounds through it. I have been trying to get him out, but not a huge priority for him.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Wondering if the accuracy drop-off might have been accompanied by a velocity increase.

It's not uncommon for a velocity increase to occur at/around the round count you mention. This may bump your load out of the node.

It may pay to repeat the final stages of your load development to ensure the the load is still running well within the node.

Greg

 

[mzvarner]

Wondering if the accuracy drop-off might have been accompanied by a velocity increase.

It's not uncommon for a velocity increase to occur at/around the round count you mention. This may bump your load out of the node.

It may pay to repeat the final stages of your load development to ensure the the load is still running well within the node.

Greg

Very interesting. Is this do to the tooling marks in the barrel smoothing over? If I remember correctly, cases expand a little after initial firing so you can get a little more powder in? Right now this 46.1 is compressed. I want to try and get closer to 3000 fps so I was planning on doing a little more testing.

 

[NoBodyImportant]

I like it

 

[KTAK]

You might try CFE 223, with most data it is usually the fastest plus it runs clean and meters like water. Plus it is accurate in my bolt gun and my LR308, just have different loads for each as my bolt loads are a bit too hot for my AR

I would be surprised if you can get 3000 out of your AR without massive pressure signs, I am pushing 155 Nosler Custom Comps out of my 24" bolt gun at just about 2900. (I am at sea level....)

 

[mzvarner]

You might try CFE 223, with most data it is usually the fastest plus it runs clean and meters like water. Plus it is accurate in my bolt gun and my LR308, just have different loads for each as my bolt loads are a bit too hot for my AR

I would be surprised if you can get 3000 out of your AR without massive pressure signs, I am pushing 155 Nosler Custom Comps out of my 24" bolt gun at just about 2900. (I am at sea level....)

My standard ar15 load (plinker gun) shoots a 55gr over cfe223 with a SD of 43!!!! But i have 1 inch groups at 100 yards. I have another friend who shoots it exclusively in his AR10 build. I may have to give it a go. But honestly... i have A SHIT TON of Varget so my motivation is low.

 

[KTAK]

I have to ask… whose load data are you using? Your Varget loads are way past any published maximum I have seen. Aren't you getting pressure signs?

Yes cases do expand after first firing, in a bolt gun neck sizing only can be your friend, not so much in an AR

 

[mzvarner]

I have to ask… whose load data are you using? Your Varget loads are way past any published maximum I have seen. Aren't you getting pressure signs?

Yes cases do expand after first firing, in a bolt gun neck sizing only can be your friend, not so much in an AR

Just been reloading for a while and worked my way up an OCW. Its how i load all my guns. No pressure signs. Think gas guns are more forgiving since gas expands/contracts/ escapes more easily?

Edit:
Hodgdon website shows a compressed max of 47grains

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Very interesting. Is this do to the tooling marks in the barrel smoothing over? If I remember correctly, cases expand a little after initial firing so you can get a little more powder in? Right now this 46.1 is compressed. I want to try and get closer to 3000 fps so I was planning on doing a little more testing.

I could agree, and/or suggest other things, etc. Truth is, I just don't know.

My process with a new barrel is to shoot it like I would do normally with a likely load recipe while fireforming 100 new cases. Only at that point do I attempt load development. Even owning a bore scope, I can't say with certainty just what's going on inside the barrel. But anecdotal commentary here and on other sites suggests the velocity increases somewhere in the barrel's adolescence.

I try to shoot some confirmation groups when I make a new run of ammunition, to see if the current batch is still shooting in the node..

Velocity increases IMHO usually results from increased bore friction, and some research many years back led me to believe that the honed bore demonstrates more friction, not less. The use of bore lubes, like Moly and graphite, decreases friction and generally results in velocity loss. Honing the bore eliminates many/most of the bore surface irregularities, increasing the actual contact area within the bore. That's where, IMHO, the friction increase originates, and with it the velocity increase.

One might think that the honing increases bore diameter. Yes, but the degree is minuscule and likely negligible.

What many don't consider is that the bullet, once it obturates, becomes compressed front to rear by the bore friction, generating greater expansion and friction within the bore; and it's this balance between bore pressure and bore friction that determines propellant burn rate. (You put a pressure differential between the front and reat of a bullet equalling 60,000 psi, and I guarantee you, it's gonna get wider. Only the bore itself can restrain this.) As the friction increases, the bore pressure/temperature also increases; and this, in turn, increases propellant combustion, and that drives the bullet faster in the bore. This is also why velocities stagnate at/around the overpressure state, and why hot loads become unpredictable and vastly more dangerous.

That's my theory on why velocities increase after the bore "wears in", and also why honed premium barrels don't exhibit the same initial behavior as non-honed general production barrels.

Compressed charges are not, by themselves, either safe or unsafe. Burn rate determines that difference. Use too fast a burn rate, and pressures peak at the danger level.

But as charges burn, the increasing bore friction literally alters their burn rate toward the faster end of the spectrum. When we play with charges at and around max, it's this sudden flare in burn rate that essentially screws down the release valve (i.e. the bullet). Bad things can happen.

It's at this point that I'd be asking myself why I want a magic velocity, and whether my assumptions about the supposed benefits are actually valid.

In several decades of handloading and LR shooting I've come to a very simple observation. Wind affects the bullet at any velocity, and since it does so at the rate of the square of the increasing velocity, faster bullets are actually deflecting at a greater angle. But they are also arriving sooner, and the net deflection is actually usually less. A bit... It's very close.

No matter what your velocity, you still need to derive a wind compensation solution. That solution is always almost, but not quite, the same with each succeeding shot (all shots are made in a unique and changing environment). Anything that increases velocity also magnifies the effects of changes.

So, no matter how fast you go, the wind skill, and not the velocity, is your best friend.

Additionally, as velocities increase exponentially, so does bore heating and wear; so there is a real-dollar cost to faster velocities. Some will shrug and eat the poop sandwich.

But when I weighed it all out, I always chose the slower node. Just as increases in velocity increase as the square of the velocity change, they also decrease in the opposite manner. I think the net outcome is better all around. I chose to place my faith in working the wind solution rather than counting on some magic velocity to save me when I chose not to work the problem with such due diligence.

Really, it's just an example of the adage about knowing your gun.

...And we haven even begun to discuss what those additional bore pressures might be doing in the rifle's gas operating system.

There's a reason why the middle of the road is so much more heavily worn.

YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).

Greg

 

[mzvarner]

I could agree, and/or suggest other things, etc. Truth is, I just don't know.

My process with a new barrel is to shoot it like I would do normally with a likely load recipe while fireforming 100 new cases. Only at that point do I attempt load development. Even owning a bore scope, I can't say with certainty just what's going on inside the barrel. But anecdotal commentary here and on other sites suggests the velocity increases somewhere in the barrel's adolescence.

I try to shoot some confirmation groups when I make a new run of ammunition, to see if the current batch is still shooting in the node..

Velocity increases IMHO usually results from increased bore friction, and some research many years back led me to believe that the honed bore demonstrates more friction, not less. The use of bore lubes, like Moly and graphite, decreases friction and generally results in velocity loss. Honing the bore eliminates many/most of the bore surface irregularities, increasing the actual contact area within the bore. That's where, IMHO, the friction increase originates, and with it the velocity increase.

One might think that the honing increases bore diameter. Yes, but the degree is minuscule and likely negligible.

What many don't consider is that the bullet, once it obturates, becomes compressed front to rear by the bore friction, generating greater expansion and friction within the bore; and it's this balance between bore pressure and bore friction that determines propellant burn rate. (You put a pressure differential between the front and reat of a bullet equalling 60,000 psi, and I guarantee you, it's gonna get wider. Only the bore itself can restrain this.) As the friction increases, the bore pressure/temperature also increases; and this, in turn, increases propellant combustion, and that drives the bullet faster in the bore. This is also why velocities stagnate at/around the overpressure state, and why hot loads become unpredictable and vastly more dangerous.

That's my theory on why velocities increase after the bore "wears in", and also why honed premium barrels don't exhibit the same initial behavior as non-honed general production barrels.

Compressed charges are not, by themselves, either safe or unsafe. Burn rate determines that difference. Use too fast a burn rate, and pressures peak at the danger level.

But as charges burn, the increasing bore friction literally alters their burn rate toward the faster end of the spectrum. When we play with charges at and around max, it's this sudden flare in burn rate that essentially screws down the release valve (i.e. the bullet). Bad things can happen.

It's at this point that I'd be asking myself why I want a magic velocity, and whether my assumptions about the supposed benefits are actually valid.

In several decades of handloading and LR shooting I've come to a very simple observation. Wind affects the bullet at any velocity, and since it does so at the rate of the square of the increasing velocity, faster bullets are actually deflecting at a greater angle. But they are also arriving sooner, and the net deflection is actually usually less. A bit... It's very close.

No matter what your velocity, you still need to derive a wind compensation solution. That solution is always almost, but not quite, the same with each succeeding shot (all shots are made in a unique and changing environment). Anything that increases velocity also magnifies the effects of changes.

So, no matter how fast you go, the wind skill, and not the velocity, is your best friend.

Additionally, as velocities increase exponentially, so does bore heating and wear; so there is a real-dollar cost to faster velocities. Some will shrug and eat the poop sandwich.

But when I weighed it all out, I always chose the slower node. Just as increases in velocity increase as the square of the velocity change, they also decrease in the opposite manner. I think the net outcome is better all around. I chose to place my faith in working the wind solution rather than counting on some magic velocity to save me when I chose not to work the problem with such due diligence.

Really, it's just an example of the adage about knowing your gun.

...And we haven even begun to discuss what those additional bore pressures might be doing in the rifle's gas operating system.

There's a reason why the middle of the road is so much more heavily worn.

YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).

Greg

That is 1 hell of an answer. Thanks for taking the time to write it out. It all makes a lot of since actually.

I think everyone in this forum should read that post. Its a hard truth (i.e. learn to read wind). SOOO many posts are about how to reach a certain velocity, when really its about matching the caliber, bullet, powder, etc. combo to the task.

I personally do not enjoy reloading. It is tedious and mind numbing (as well as frustrating) chasing measurements 3+ decimal points. At this point I only do it because i already have the equipment and component stock (plus a small amount of election paranoia and rising ammo costs) So your advice of sticking to a lower node is all it takes for me to drop the idea of further work up.

Again, thanks for your time and knowledgeable response.

 

[theLBC]

^&^^

good post and points.
imho, if you can't call wind (which should be formulaic at this point) it doesn't matter how fast or accurate your rifle is.
reading wind downrange isn't easy without experience no matter how much you think you know.

but i will say for me, safe but higher velocities in my 7.62x51mm (.308) is desirable if i want to test my limits in distance.
i have a 20" barrel (1:12 twist if it matters). cold hammer forged, chrome lined.
general consensus seems to be that (at sea level) 800-900 yards is the max limit for FGMM 175gr before the smk pill drops out of supersonic and/or loses stability (wobble and tumble). after many hundreds of thousands of rounds shot through this platform (by others), the SMK BTHP is the accepted standard for accuracy (versus so many other different bullets).

but then i have "seen" and read about plenty of people saying they hit 1000 consistently. are they all shooting at 7000 ft elevation?
so now i am challenged to see if i can do it (even though i don't compete in any way and am not any sort of marksman).
mostly just because somebody told me it can't be done, unless i can do it myself.

i am curious to see if tipped sierra match kings would keep it stable longer. no doubt wobble ruins BC real quick, and i and not sure how much higher velocities affect spin rate.
maybe the lower BC of the tipped, assuming it shoots as well as SMK can tip the scales in my favor?
if i can eek out a little more velocity to keep it supersonic at or beyond 1000 yds (at sea level, in an ice storm), it will tip even further.

i'm also considering Hornady Superformance Match, since they claim "safe" velocities up to ~2800 ft/sec (vs 26xx for the FGMM), but nobody has reported "super" results with a 168gr ELD out of these rifles. maybe it is worth a try.
The berger spin calculator says 168gr VLD is stable with a 1:12 twist at above 2700 ft/sec.

 

[mzvarner]

^&^^

good post and points.
imho, if you can't call wind (which should be formulaic at this point) it doesn't matter how fast or accurate your rifle is.
reading wind downrange isn't easy without experience no matter how much you think you know.

but i will say for me, safe but higher velocities in my 7.62x51mm (.308) is desirable if i want to test my limits in distance.
i have a 20" barrel (1:12 twist if it matters). cold hammer forged, chrome lined.
general consensus seems to be that (at sea level) 800-900 yards is the max limit for FGMM 175gr before the smk pill drops out of supersonic and/or loses stability (wobble and tumble). after many hundreds of thousands of rounds shot through this platform (by others), the SMK BTHP is the accepted standard for accuracy (versus so many other different bullets).

but then i have "seen" and read about plenty of people saying they hit 1000 consistently. are they all shooting at 7000 ft elevation?
so now i am challenged to see if i can do it (even though i don't compete in any way and am not any sort of marksman).
mostly just because somebody told me it can't be done, unless i can do it myself.

I am in the same boat. I built the mentioned bolt gun with a Bartlein 308 replacement barrel to shoot 155gr palma MK. Why? Because a theoretical calculation on the shooter app showed that if i can push that 155gr pill close to 3k fps then it "mimics" 6.5 ballistics. I can not confirm this cause 5 years later im still on that barrel with no signs of a swap soon.

However, i am at 2250 feet above sea level. I routinely shoot the 168gr FGMM to 1k, and even got a first time shooter on a full size ipsc torsos at 1k with my rifle (AND WIND CALL?!). Not apples to apples, but some insight with similar ammunition.

 

[theLBC]

I am in the same boat. I built the mentioned bolt gun with a Bartlein 308 replacement barrel to shoot 155gr palma MK. Why? Because a theoretical calculation on the shooter app showed that if i can push that 155gr pill close to 3k fps then it "mimics" 6.5 ballistics. I can not confirm this cause 5 years later im still on that barrel with no signs of a swap soon.

However, i am at 2250 feet above sea level. I routinely shoot the 168gr FGMM to 1k, and even got a first time shooter on a full size ipsc torsos at 1k with my rifle (AND WIND CALL?!). Not apples to apples, but some insight with similar ammunition.

thanks. i'm going to give it a shot, but since a range with 1000 yards is not close, i will take a few things to try.
if i do try the hornady superformance, i can turn the gas down to the suppressed setting just in case.

Superformance in Gas Operated Firearms - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Background Superformance ammunition was developed in the Hornady ballistics lab utilizing state of the art test equipment in accordance with SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) guidelines for pressure, velocity and accuracy ut...

www.hornady.com

 

[KTAK]

You guys might want to look up Lowlights video where he is tagging steel at a almost a mile with a 308 shooting 160 grain Warner Tool Bullets... Expensive yes but load data and my chrono suggests that they are supersonic past 1500 yards....

The other video you might want to see is the one from I think Mark and Sam after hours, He is an Aussie (I think) that debunks the transonic zone in a pretty simple manner (ie not all bullets destabilize, in fact very few do...) I will see if I can find the link

Here is the link....

 

[theLBC]

You guys might want to look up Lowlights video where he is tagging steel at a almost a mile with a 308 shooting 160 grain Warner Tool Bullets... Expensive yes but load data and my chrono suggests that they are supersonic past 1500 yards....

The other video you might want to see is the one from I think Mark and Sam after hours, He is an Aussie (I think) that debunks the transonic zone in a pretty simple manner (ie not all bullets destabilize, in fact very few do...) I will see if I can find the link

Here is the link....

thanks! he's shooting up in the mountains though, right?

 

[KTAK]

thanks! he's shooting up in the mountains though, right?

I think around 4000 ft but I run all my data for sea level and that 1500 yards supersonic is sea level at 2850 fps. My bolt gun is 24"... The truly amazing thing is drop data, the Warners have 30 less MOA drop at a mile... Drops for 175's are atrocious... JBMBallistics.com is your friend, free online calculator....

 

[KTAK]

I am in the same boat. I built the mentioned bolt gun with a Bartlein 308 replacement barrel to shoot 155gr palma MK. Why? Because a theoretical calculation on the shooter app showed that if i can push that 155gr pill close to 3k fps then it "mimics" 6.5 ballistics. I can not confirm this cause 5 years later im still on that barrel with no signs of a swap soon.

However, i am at 2250 feet above sea level. I routinely shoot the 168gr FGMM to 1k, and even got a first time shooter on a full size ipsc torsos at 1k with my rifle (AND WIND CALL?!). Not apples to apples, but some insight with similar ammunition.

My bolt rifle absolutely loves 155 Nosler Custom Comps... Funny how they have much less drop than the heavy bullets with only a minimal increase in wind drift....

 

[mzvarner]

I do not think it is fair to compare a long barreled bolt gun with (expensive boutique) bullets, to a generic budget build AR10 (see my OP).

I am sure that with the correct barrel, bullet, powder, optic, environmental conditions, you can accurately lob a 308 pill all you want. This is not the purpose of my project, and we have to be careful making that comparison because someone's googl-fu will lead them hear thinking all rifle/ bullet combos are equal.

 

[KTAK]

No intention to compare a bolt to the budget build, just trying to give a baseline concerning ballistics of a 308.

While my bolt gun and my Aero ME5 are both what most would call budget guns, to get the most out of them we sometimes have to find ways around the budget aspect and often it is projectiles that will do that.

My next load development is getting the Warner bullets to run in my ME5....

 

[KTAK]

Along the budget side of things... My ME5 loves Speer 150 TMJ’s and they are cheap and accurate, $8 a box of 50 from Midway...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Thanks plenty for the kind words.

I can clearly understand why folks hover in the vicinity of handloading without really wanting to touch down and get their bench all super organized and such. All those decimals and such.

Well a couple of decades ago, going on three of them, I took that plunge. Three decimals was a term that didn't come down that pike for quite a ways to come back then. Compounding all this, I was unable to commit to big dollar equipment so I set out along a parallel but simpler path, trying to find out what, if any, accuracy potential was available to the commoner and his basic factory equipment.

I put quite a bit of it down right here in a series of articles called "Black Thoughts", which dealt with basic home gunsmithing, and some simplifications of the physics involved. Glass bedding, marksmanship basics, factory load testing, the scientific method, and understanding the ballistic curve, velocity curve, with some bits about where inaccuracy creeps in and how to keep it more or less at bay. Handloading came into play, too.

It was very basic, and some of it was not as accurate as many of us believed at the time, but it put a small army of SH'ers on the path to self improvement with a side helping of sweat equity. Since then I've taken a deserved back seat as many individuals here, far more capable than myself, have taken over the task.

None of this could have been possible without LL slaving away to keep the lights on here.

First things first. Nobody starts out as a champion, it comes in stages. Knowledge needs to be the foundation. It is not possible to buy one's way into the X ring. Great gear in less capable hands is simply wasted money. Unless the shooter is willing to get down, get their hands dirty, and make their muscles ache; it's all just an exercise in conspicuous consumption. Most of us are not that person, but there's hope. It's called due diligence.

Precision to three decimals is a highly fragile thing. There is a myriad of things which negate its capacity to excel.

Start with stacking clearances. Whether its loading gear, the rifle, or maybe even other things, multiple parts assembled in unison all each have operating clearances.

Think of this in terms of a railroad train. When it starts up, all the slack in the couplers gets taken up with that bang, bang, bang as the energy finally gets down the line of cars to the last one. Get on the brakes, and the slack gets taken up in the opposite direction. One half inch of clearance per car adds up to a couple of feet's worth overall. Truth be told, that's something that hasn't happened in a long time, but when trains first appeared, that's exactly what happened.

Well firearms can have similar aggregations of slop. This is where gunsmiths do their best work, cleaning up that slop. There are other names for it, but this is a a pretty close simplification.

So where does this put all that handloading triple decimal precision? It's in there, sandwiched between gunsmithing, the original slop, and being watched over by those marksmanship skills. Unless the gear and the skills are up to snuff, that triple decimal precision is mostly just a waste of time.

But hold on. Just how much actual precision is absolutely mandatory, and how many of us are actually capable of putting it to proper use? My estimate, there's a lot of wasted precision going around out there.

So what's the point? There is definitely a point for all that precision, but it's really a matter of steps and stages.

Single digit (i.e. .1) handloading precision consistently provided can show accuracy improvement in factory equipment, providing the shooter has the knowledge and diligence to manipulate the equipment at its potential.

Moving up, going through the equipment and cleaning up loose optics mounts, glassbedding the action, honing the skills so that groups, whatever the size, are consistent; and the introduction of double digit (i.e. ,01) handloading precision will show an actual improvement.

At this point, I was shooting 1000yd F Open competitively.

I was getting beaten by the folks with the custom rifles, top tier optics, and skills that represented years of execution and success; and rightly so. They deserved to reap the fruits of their labors, they had done their diligence and paid the prices.

But did that mean I was a loser, or that I should simply dump it all and take up golf? GOLF?

Nope; because I was not competing with them, I was competing with myself. I'm the hardest opponent I've ever had to face. I can get beaten by myself every day of the week. When that table gets turned, it's no small victory.

I tried all the triple digit (i.e .001) techniques, got them to work, and finally realized I was wasting so much otherwise great range time slaving over that hot reloading bench. I didn't need that kind of precision, and I was really ill equipped to take full advantage of it anyway. I was never cut out to be the champion; but there are a lot of people competing alongside that champion, and if they're not enjoying themselves, I suggest golf.

So I pared back those excesses in equipment and effort, and got it reduced down to where a 1MOA day was a good day, and a 1/2MOA day was a really great day. By then, I was down to a single custom rifle, and was working with basic RCBS and Hornady New Dimension Dies. The same old used Dillon RL550B I had started out with in the mid-90's was/is still my only press, and I had made my sole concession to excess and set myself up with an electronic powder measure. All my shooting gear is factory, with only what upgrades I can apply at my own bench. I build my own AR's now.

Frustration and empty pocketbooks are in the rear view. I have fun, still compete at the club level, and I keep far away from prize tables; too many checkbooks, too much blood in the gutters around that. My prize is simple fun and self satisfaction.

I could do worse. I could do better. I'm comfortable where I am.

Greg

 

[mzvarner]

Thanks plenty for the kind words.

I can clearly understand why folks hover in the vicinity of handloading without really wanting to touch down and get their bench all super organized and such. All those decimals and such.

Well a couple of decades ago, going on three of them, I took that plunge. Three decimals was a term that didn't come down that pike for quite a ways to come back then. Compounding all this, I was unable to commit to big dollar equipment so I set out along a parallel but simpler path, trying to find out what, if any, accuracy potential was available to the commoner and his basic factory equipment.

I put quite a bit of it down right here in a series of articles called "Black Thoughts", which dealt with basic home gunsmithing, and some simplifications of the physics involved. Glass bedding, marksmanship basics, factory load testing, the scientific method, and understanding the ballistic curve, velocity curve, with some bits about where inaccuracy creeps in and how to keep it more or less at bay. Handloading came into play, too.

It was very basic, and some of it was not as accurate as many of us believed at the time, but it put a small army of SH'ers on the path to self improvement with a side helping of sweat equity. Since then I've taken a deserved back seat as many individuals here, far more capable than myself, have taken over the task.

None of this could have been possible without LL slaving away to keep the lights on here.

First things first. Nobody starts out as a champion, it comes in stages. Knowledge needs to be the foundation. It is not possible to buy one's way into the X ring. Great gear in less capable hands is simply wasted money. Unless the shooter is willing to get down, get their hands dirty, and make their muscles ache; it's all just an exercise in conspicuous consumption. Most of us are not that person, but there's hope. It's called due diligence.

Precision to three decimals is a highly fragile thing. There is a myriad of things which negate its capacity to excel.

Start with stacking clearances. Whether its loading gear, the rifle, or maybe even other things, multiple parts assembled in unison all each have operating clearances.

Think of this in terms of a railroad train. When it starts up, all the slack in the couplers gets taken up with that bang, bang, bang as the energy finally gets down the line of cars to the last one. Get on the brakes, and the slack gets taken up in the opposite direction. One half inch of clearance per car adds up to a couple of feet's worth overall. Truth be told, that's something that hasn't happened in a long time, but when trains first appeared, that's exactly what happened.

Well firearms can have similar aggregations of slop. This is where gunsmiths do their best work, cleaning up that slop. There are other names for it, but this is a a pretty close simplification.

So where does this put all that handloading triple decimal precision? It's in there, sandwiched between gunsmithing, the original slop, and being watched over by those marksmanship skills. Unless the gear and the skills are up to snuff, that triple decimal precision is mostly just a waste of time.

But hold on. Just how much actual precision is absolutely mandatory, and how many of us are actually capable of putting it to proper use? My estimate, there's a lot of wasted precision going around out there.

So what's the point? There is definitely a point for all that precision, but it's really a matter of steps and stages.

Single digit (i.e. .1) handloading precision consistently provided can show accuracy improvement in factory equipment, providing the shooter has the knowledge and diligence to manipulate the equipment at its potential.

Moving up, going through the equipment and cleaning up loose optics mounts, glassbedding the action, honing the skills so that groups, whatever the size, are consistent; and the introduction of double digit (i.e. ,01) handloading precision will show an actual improvement.

At this point, I was shooting 1000yd F Open competitively.

I was getting beaten by the folks with the custom rifles, top tier optics, and skills that represented years of execution and success; and rightly so. They deserved to reap the fruits of their labors, they had done their diligence and paid the prices.

But did that mean I was a loser, or that I should simply dump it all and take up golf? GOLF?

Nope; because I was not competing with them, I was competing with myself. I'm the hardest opponent I've ever had to face. I can get beaten by myself every day of the week. When that table gets turned, it's no small victory.

I tried all the triple digit (i.e .001) techniques, got them to work, and finally realized I was wasting so much otherwise great range time slaving over that hot reloading bench. I didn't need that kind of precision, and I was really ill equipped to take full advantage of it anyway. I was never cut out to be the champion; but there are a lot of people competing alongside that champion, and if they're not enjoying themselves, I suggest golf.

So I pared back those excesses in equipment and effort, and got it reduced down to where a 1MOA day was a good day, and a 1/2MOA day was a really great day. By then, I was down to a single custom rifle, and was working with basic RCBS and Hornady New Dimension Dies. The same old used Dillon RL550B I had started out with in the mid-90's was/is still my only press, and I had made my sole concession to excess and set myself up with an electronic powder measure. All my shooting gear is factory, with only what upgrades I can apply at my own bench. I build my own AR's now.

Frustration and empty pocketbooks are in the rear view. I have fun, still compete at the club level, and I keep far away from prize tables; too many checkbooks, too much blood in the gutters around that. My prize is simple fun and self satisfaction.

I could do worse. I could do better. I'm comfortable where I am.

Greg

I absolutely agree. If its not fun, and only causing frustration, then what's the point? We all have to decide how much is worth chasing. I (am sure most of us have) read a book by Brian Litz statistically analyzing various elements to shooting and it paralleled what you are saying. Ultimately its shooter competence that is the largest factor in accuracy and precision.

Just to clarify, when i speak of 3 decimal points, i am talking about these guys chasing seating depths and powder charges. Like you, I use economic dies (mostly Lee, but i splurged on the micrometer hornady dies for my fancy rifles). I dont chase case by case OAL. More often than not i am using COAL and not CBTO. And i get it close enough to the hundredth. I just dont have the patience and i dont think it makes that much difference for my abilities.

I can routinely hit the various steel out to 1k at my local range. People see my rifles and hear my hits then ask me about stuff like I have any clue what im doing. Ultimately its just practice, which i need more of because my wind calls are lacking (making me a fair weather shooter)

Its nice to hear some real world feed back from somone with so much experience and knowledge. At times I wonder how much most of these posts are from guys that are more frustrated at the bench in hopes that it makes the difference versus spending time behind the rifle.

Oh, dont you know the internet says you can't make accurate ammo on a dillon?

 

[KTAK]

Funny but the only piece of equipment that ever offered a drastic improvement to my group sizes is a $28 Lee Neck Collet Size die....

Gotta agree, range time is way better than load time....