My Build Vision

[lee1000]

Hello all, any bad ideas, advice or incompatibility issues here?

Right now this project is sitting at a calculated 10.4 lbs and $4k w/o scope. My budget is pretty close to this but I don’t want to go any higher. I’ll be building this rifle myself.

Purpose
Looking to build a relatively lightweight (<12lbs) 6.5 CM for hunting/target shooting/PRS and SHTF. So….shoot as far as possible while understanding the limitations of the bullet and velocity. I have access to 1 mile.

Does going with a lightweight stock make sense if I’m just going to add weight to it when it makes sense to do so? I.E. remove weights for hunting, add for target shooting.

My Experience
I’ve shot out to 1k twice and regularly shoot out to 600 yards with a Savage FTR in 308. I understand precision reloading quite well and have Quickload.

I’m left handed but intending to have this rifle setup as a righty because I’ve never shot a left handed gun before. I’m pretty handy so I can do somethings, bedding for example (this rifle doesn’t need to be bedded due to mini chassis).

Action
Kelby Tactical

Stock
Manners carbon fiber T2 with Karsten type cheek rest and 1” adjustable butt spacer system.

Bottom Metal
Manners Mini Chassis

Barrel
24-26 inch, Bartlein prefit 400MOD BB Material and probably chambered by them.

The barrel will be threaded for a 308 can.

7.5 or 8 twist?

Recommended contour for a rifle that is moderately lightweight? I’m thinking medium Palma?

How much does fluting help cool the barrel down? Worth it?

90 degree crown?

Recommended free bore?

Scope
Already have a Leupold MOA VX6 3-18 w/TMOA reticle.

How far is this scope reasonably good for?

Trigger
Geissele Super 700

Tools
Barrel vice clamps
Barrel nut wrench
Action wrench
Go/No Go gauges for head space

Ammo
Looking at Berger 144 LRHT

Powder ….something temperature stable

Peterson cases because they’re made in the the USA.

 

[RFutch]

Usually when you try to build one rifle to do it all it ends up sucking at everything.

 

[Chickentoast]

Tried starting a response but every bolded area has so much subjectivity that it's difficult to make recommendations. If you have access to 1 mile but have only shot to 1K twice, honestly, I'd suggest shooting a lot more before building your rifle - or understand going in that you'll burn 1K reworking it later.

 

[Delicatessen]

A 6.5creed/260/6.5x47 would be a good choice but I would suggest building/buying something fairly basic and then figuring out what you like. For example a krg bravo might be a good starting point as you can change the buttsorck and front end later. I generally like 2 stages triggers so that’s probably good but again a preference item. Scope; shoot what you have until you know what reticle etc works best for you (if you do prs you can most like get behind options before deciding). The reloading stuff is all dependent on what you can get right now but yes Berger and Peterson should both be good. Something equivalent to the John Hancock, badrock, origin barreled action are all good places to start…or tikka but rebarreling can be tricky the first time.

 

[Delicatessen]

Forgot to mention for a handy rifle I do prefer slightly less barrel primarily when suppressing….maybe consider 20-22”. I have a 19” and it can make it beyond a 1000 yards supersonic. But I also have 26-28” options I just like shorter for general handy rifles.

 

[athanasios23]

If its a hunting/ target rifle I would build it to your preferred hunting weight. Buy the lightweight stock and then add weights as needed for the range. If it's to heavy at its lightest then your kind of stuck there.

 

[lee1000]

Thanks guys I appreciate the advice.

 

[Hennig]

Just build a PRS rifle then get a cheap sporterweight Howa to hunt with.

 

[lee1000]

A 6.5creed/260/6.5x47 would be a good choice but I would suggest building/buying something fairly basic and then figuring out what you like. For example a krg bravo might be a good starting point as you can change the buttsorck and front end later. I generally like 2 stages triggers so that’s probably good but again a preference item. Scope; shoot what you have until you know what reticle etc works best for you (if you do prs you can most like get behind options before deciding). The reloading stuff is all dependent on what you can get right now but yes Berger and Peterson should both be good. Something equivalent to the John Hancock, badrock, origin barreled action are all good places to start…or tikka but rebarreling can be tricky the first time.

Thanks for KRG recommendation. That will save some money and weight.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I think your Savage FTR 308 is an ideal gun for 1000yd for someone at your current experience level. First, you already own it, so no more bucks to spend. Second, It's not a top tier, no defects, supertuned rifle that does the work for you; you gotta work to earn those 'X's. BTW, NO rifle does the work for you, but right now, the ones that make you work like a rented mule are the ones you want to be slaving over. Practice now so you can do it, then practice more, so you can't not do it.

Next step, put a longer (mine is 28") premium 260 barrel on it. Handload for it, and don't be lusting after the ultimate load. In fact try to keep the load on the milder side, and let that barrel length do the work, and save the bore. Develop one that's affordable, reliable, and suited to your goals is good enough; and it's nice to know there's always room for improvement. Stick with commoner components, ones that are less likely to be vulnerable to shortages. I use Speer Gold Dot 140's, even though I know there are better ELD's available. The Speer Gold Dots are affordable, shoot very much well enough, are barrier blind, and can achieve things besides poking holes in paper.

When that gets too old, you have arrived at the point where your skills can match up with the gun you have in mind. Don't build it, get a professional builder to do it, and don't tell them how to do it either. They do it for a living. They very likely have some well proven ideas about what it takes to best achieve your goals with their rifle.

When you talk, understand who the professional in the room is, and speak about applications and goals, not bits and pieces. Very likely, you'll find yourself talking about several rifles, each to do their job better. What you mention above is going to have to be a compromise. Very seldom does that satisfy worth what you intend to spend.

For now, you can't hit what you can't see, so give considerable thought to an optics upgrade. Good place for all that money you've got.

This is very likely not what you wanted to read.

But I've been advising new folks on this site since its inception. First walk, then run. Folks may judge you on what you brung, but that's the wrong judgement to seek. Better that they judge you by what's on your target. Recognizing that you did it without spending large is a desirable reputation to carry. In the Indian vs Arrow discussion, I favor the Indian.

There's always another new thing to buy, and it's all good. Wait and an even better one will come along. Spend money on ammunition and targets, and then do it some more. When the time comes to take on the top tier, you'll know it. That's when you'll actually need a top tier rifle.

Training is the other thing to put the money into. I strongly suggest going to one (or several) of LowLight's courses. He does it essentially for a living, which already puts him in the top tier. He's also usually working on developing new knowledge, another significant distinction. He's a genuine leader in his field.

Just give this all some thought. It's based on taking the long view and building bulletproof skills. Thinking isn't expensive.

Greg

 

[moosemeat]

Greg- what rifle do you shoot? 100% not being argumentative just asking.
I generally agree with Greg above. The one exception is your rifle has to be good enough for you to know the mistakes are you and not the rifle. I shoot 1 rifle for 95% of my shooting. I know my dope. I carry it hunting and I shoot F-T/R with it. If I shot PRS I would use it there as well. My rifle is a 17# FN SPR. I have walked 10 miles in a day with it. My M70 Featherweight generally doesnt leave the house because I know the FN so well.
Learn to be a rifleman 1st then build what you know you need.

All the SHTF fantasies need a 308 cause you can pick up ammo from the highly trained well armed adversaries you will surely have slay to stay alive...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

My rifle Is a Savage 10FP (year 2001) with an L-W 28" 1:8" 260 Rem (SAAMI Chamber). It's mounted in a McMillan A5, and Factory Pillar Bedded by McMillan. It shot in the first NRA F Class meet in 2002 at Whittington. It's also shot 2 seasons of 1000yd F Open at Bodines, PA. These days, it's mostly a range queen, and my max available distance at the moment is 300yd, 50mi away on The Border in Douglas, AZ. It is one of the first SH Project Rifles, The Ghost Dancer.

I don't honestly know why I retain the 308, but I have a pair. One is a 24" Savage 11VT, factory plain except for the Choate Tactical Stock. It is intended as a prototype Beginner F T/R Rifle. It has a twin, differing only in chambering, 223; and that rifle last shot in comp at the 2017 Berger SW LR Nationals in the 600yd MR F T/R Aggregate. I retired from Comp after that match. I'm 75 Now.

The other 308 is a PSA "Space Cannon" (Don't laugh, it was an "I Can't Put It Down sale") 20" with extensive internal and ergonomic mods (by me). All of my AR's are ergonomically identical, chambered in 5.56 (3 of them, including an identical pair of Stag Model 6 24"), 6.5 Grendel (2), and the 308. I may have too many AR's but I'll never admit it.

My deer gun is a Savage AXIS II 30-06 in a Boyd's Laminated Stock. It feels as light as the M70 30-06 Featherweight it replaces (gifted to my SIL). It's a surprisingly nice rifle with the Boyd's stock.

My firearms are humble.

My rifles are tools, and I choose the ones that will get the job done, without any frills or envy factors. They start out as basic and inexpensive, then get updated with specific features that have specific purposes. They are well suited to those purposes. I do all my own work. I trained with local gunsmiths before doing my own rifles. I don't build guns, I assemble them from commercially available parts. I can do anything I need done on a Savage or an AR. If they need gunsmithing, they will go to a professional. I define gunsmithing as anything that requires machining.

At age 75; all those highly trained, well armed adversaries are as safe from me as I am from them...

Greg

 

[moosemeat]

Greg, the reason I asked was to see the level of rifle a rifleman needs to be beyond capable. I appreciate your sharing and will stop derailing this thread.

Lee1000- I would say shoot more. I know that's the common response to all questions, but that's cause its fact. If your dead set on building a new gun I would say-
A Bartlien #4, #13 and light palma all way about the same.
Easier to add weight later that take it out.
Fluting is for looks more than anything. LRI has a calculator to see how much weight you can take off with differnt fluting options.

 

[lee1000]

I think your Savage FTR 308 is an ideal gun for 1000yd for someone at your current experience level. First, you already own it, so no more bucks to spend. Second, It's not a top tier, no defects, supertuned rifle that does the work for you; you gotta work to earn those 'X's. BTW, NO rifle does the work for you, but right now, the ones that make you work like a rented mule are the ones you want to be slaving over. Practice now so you can do it, then practice more, so you can't not do it.

Next step, put a longer (mine is 28") premium 260 barrel on it. Handload for it, and don't be lusting after the ultimate load. In fact try to keep the load on the milder side, and let that barrel length do the work, and save the bore. Develop one that's affordable, reliable, and suited to your goals is good enough; and it's nice to know there's always room for improvement. Stick with commoner components, ones that are less likely to be vulnerable to shortages. I use Speer Gold Dot 140's, even though I know there are better ELD's available. The Speer Gold Dots are affordable, shoot very much well enough, are barrier blind, and can achieve things besides poking holes in paper.

When that gets too old, you have arrived at the point where your skills can match up with the gun you have in mind. Don't build it, get a professional builder to do it, and don't tell them how to do it either. They do it for a living. They very likely have some well proven ideas about what it takes to best achieve your goals with their rifle.

When you talk, understand who the professional in the room is, and speak about applications and goals, not bits and pieces. Very likely, you'll find yourself talking about several rifles, each to do their job better. What you mention above is going to have to be a compromise. Very seldom does that satisfy worth what you intend to spend.

For now, you can't hit what you can't see, so give considerable thought to an optics upgrade. Good place for all that money you've got.

This is very likely not what you wanted to read.

But I've been advising new folks on this site since its inception. First walk, then run. Folks may judge you on what you brung, but that's the wrong judgement to seek. Better that they judge you by what's on your target. Recognizing that you did it without spending large is a desirable reputation to carry. In the Indian vs Arrow discussion, I favor the Indian.

There's always another new thing to buy, and it's all good. Wait and an even better one will come along. Spend money on ammunition and targets, and then do it some more. When the time comes to take on the top tier, you'll know it. That's when you'll actually need a top tier rifle.

Training is the other thing to put the money into. I strongly suggest going to one (or several) of LowLight's courses. He does it essentially for a living, which already puts him in the top tier. He's also usually working on developing new knowledge, another significant distinction. He's a genuine leader in his field.

Just give this all some thought. It's based on taking the long view and building bulletproof skills. Thinking isn't expensive.

Greg

I think that is great advice, especially from the training and shooting more perspective. The Savage FTR I have is an excellent rifle but it’s 17lbs w/scope and with a 30” barrel pretty unwieldily.

All in all, I’m basically looking for a rifle that is accurate and semi handy.

I don’t have anything against factory rifles. I’ve read good things about Howa and Tikka but I get hung up on them not being American made. I’d buy a 700 but…….lots of reasons. I like Savage’s but I’m looking for something with more aftermarket support.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I've shot the Savage F T/R 308 in Comp at 300, and I find it to be an impressive rifle.

I hear you about aftermarket support on the Savage, but I've noted that Savage has a broad selection of products. Combined with that, I've never sought a needed part for a Savage that I couldn't get my hands on. I prefer Savages mostly because I can do the things that require a gunsmith to do on the other non-Remage rifles.

The word Axis used to give me chills, until I got my 30-06 Axis II. Definitely affordable, isn't a heavy carry, and for what I wanted, a hunting rifle, I was squarely in the niche it was designed for. The stock was awkward for me, but once that was altered, it fell into line with my needs. At the time I was hunting in the NE Woods, and LR accuracy was not a factor. The adjustable trigger really helps with accuracy, I keep it at about 2lb-3lb for mine, and wouldn't go lower for a field rifle.

Savage has been developing the Axis line into something beyond a Fudd gun. You might want to give this a good close look. Street Price.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Allah be praised, I finally got back out to the range, and tested both of the Grendels with 90gr Speer TNT's. The 24", which is intended to be dedicated for the 90TNT, once zeroed, shot a silver dot on the 100yd steel about the size of a quarter. The 20" is to be dedicated for the 120 Gold Dot (which got left home - facepalm) was also shooting about 1-1 1/2in at 100, but will be resighted and retested very soon with the right ammo. I'd settle for what I got but I think the 120's will do better.

All the gongs at 200 and 300 got rung by both.

So far, looking OK. Never used the O2 at all yesterday.

Greg

PS, BTW, this rifle is built with PSA/AR Stoner components with no particular accuracy expectations. FWIW, it is my project rifle, using the receiver face truing and Lok-Tite Red barrel extension bedding techniques. One rifle is an exceedingly small data set, but I'm thinking the key accuracy feature right now is that pair of techniques.

Today, I build the 120gr ammo for the 20" and will be taking that rifle down and performing the techniques on them before the next shooting session.

And finally, I'm no more a capable rifleman than most of the serious shooters on this site, and my age is also beginning to show.