My new 3Gun AR15

N

NightHawkIX

Private
Minuteman
May 3, 2011
11
0
36
#1
Just finished up my new 3Gun/multi-purpose AR15, what do you guys think?

DSC01785.jpg

DSC01784.jpg

DSC01783.jpg


Nuts&Bolts:
WOA 16" Middy SDM (fluted) SS Match barrel
Del-Ton A3 Upper/BCG/CH (badger latch)
BattleComp 2.0
MBUS Front sight, MaTech Rear sight
Vortex PST 1-4X24 on a PA Deluxe Mount
Surefire M300A Scout
Magpul AFG
Magpul RSA
Timney 4.5# Trigger
Magpul UBR stock (w/ Mount-n-slot CSAP mount for Magpul MS2)
Charles Daly lower w/ DPMS LPK
 
#3
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

The BC is good, but not quite as good as the surefire break. It tends to direct the muzzle flip straight down, as well as back. I'd say it controls for recoil/muzzle flip better than a FSC 556, but worse than the surefire.

Allows for effective double taps (as in bullet pairs will be within <6" of each other) to about a 20Y. At least with me as the shooter...
 
#6
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

Sweet looking 3gun! I've never seen that flash hider before and found your comments interesting. Supa stick though.

I'm a proud papa too...Check this out.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m597/timlemons64/AAC%20762-SD/MyNewSilence003.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m597/timlemons64/AAC%20762-SD/MyNewSilence006.jpg

- M&P 15 Tactical 16"
- ACOG TAO1NSN 4X32mm, with TRD Red Dot
- Young MFG Match Crome BCG
- Timney 3# Trigger group
- Magpul trigger guard
- BCM Gun Fighter Charging Handle
- VLTOR Mod Butt Stock
- Magpul forward MOE grip
- Ergo Pistol Grip
- AAC 762-SD Silencer
- AAC Blackout flashider
- Troy MFG front & Rear BUIS
- Troy MFG Aluminum Quad rail 10"
- Surefire MC600 tactical light (120 lumens LED)
- Tactical Link Batery Assist Devise
- One stupid happy owner (me)
 
#9
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

Yes. It is new.

This is a general statement. Why doesn't anyone show a picture of a banged-up, worn-out, raggedy-assed rig and give a run down of its performance?

If the rig ran well the report would be exciting.

If the rig did not run well we wouldn't get the report, probably, so we there wouldn't be any downers.
wink.gif


But that is a fine lookn rig. I'm just jealous. Someone upset my apple cart and I can't have a new gun.
 
#11
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

Interesting comment on the SF vs the battlecomp. I haven't had a chance to shoot either, but was curious to see how they would compare. It seemed like the BC was the talk of the town for a while when it was introduced.
 
#12
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

dude. minus the light placement, scope, and trigger that is exactly what I want my ar to look like eventually. Pretty sweet.

I realize you've already been asked but I would be very interested in how she runs. How is the weight/balance?
 
#14
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CardiacKid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting comment on the SF vs the battlecomp. I haven't had a chance to shoot either, but was curious to see how they would compare. It seemed like the BC was the talk of the town for a while when it was introduced.</div></div>

The BC is less capable than the SF breaks when it comes to pure compensation, but it more than makes up for it because of the reduced blast. A SF break is not safe to use indoors, and therefore, pro door-kickers can't use it. The BC break on the other hand is like an A2 when it comes to blast, so it's useable indoors.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I realize you've already been asked but I would be very interested in how she runs. How is the weight/balance?</div></div>
This guns getting taken out to the range tomorrow; I'll report back ASAP with a function report and accuracy report. Currently, the balance is pretty good, especially considering the the barrel is a heavy profile; the UBR helps, and I mount the optics a bit further back to help the balance.
 
#15
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

very nice looking rifle. it sounds like it ought to shoot as well as it looks.

I am curious to hear your opinion on the vortex, and the PA mount. I have had my eye on that particular 1-4 for a while. does the reticle help you get on target fast at 1x and yet stay sharp and get out of the way at 4x?

thanks for sharing!
 
#16
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NightHawkIX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Currently, the balance is pretty good, especially considering the the barrel is a heavy profile; the UBR helps, and I mount the optics a bit further back to help the balance.</div></div>

Same here. I have an 18" SS BCM with the JP 15" extended length handguard on mine and the UBRs/PRSs are just about the only stocks I've seen that will even remotely counter balance the front end. Using the PRS on mine definitely adds to the overall weight, but I'd rather have a heavier balanced gun than a light and lopsided one.
 
#17
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NightHawkIX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CardiacKid said:
A SF break is not safe to use indoors, and therefore, pro door-kickers can't use it.</div></div>

Nice stick, looks high-speed. I run my 18" with the exact same set-up.

I work for SureFire and I can assure you that the SureFire muzzle brake has no issues indoors or in a team environment and that plenty of professionals use them. I'm not sure where that bit of information came from (and I appreciate you bringing it up so I can address it) but it is not factual.

I have shot thousands of rounds through our brakes and hundreds if not thousands in rooms, hallways, and even out of boxes with varying types of 5.56 and .308 ammunition. I've shot with the brake sideways two inches from the deck, next to walls and barricades, out of culverts, under cars and inside cars. There are no issues.

Everything we make is made for door-kickers first. And our brake was specifically designed for use in teams. Yes, you will hear it and you will feel it, but our proprietary Impulse Diffusion design (safely) minimizes gas blowback. Of course, if you really want to reduce muzzle blast, please throw our can on it!
Click to expand...
 
#18
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am curious to hear your opinion on the vortex, and the PA mount. I have had my eye on that particular 1-4 for a while. does the reticle help you get on target fast at 1x and yet stay sharp and get out of the way at 4x? </div></div>
I've used the Vortex/PA mount on my previous carbine and here's some thoughts:

The Vortex is great; a nice clear piece of glass. At 1X, the eye relief is just awesome and comparable to a TR24 and better than the TR21; definitely allows for both eyes open type shooting. At 4X, the reticle is a ranging reticle which is nice (with practice), and the eye relief is still decent (about .5-0.75" wiggle in any direction from optimum). I'd say I can easily shoot a IPSC silhouette target out to 400Y with the PST1-4X and a decent bullet. (take that with a grain of salt though, since I also shoot 600Y high power targets with a service rifle iron sight.) The downside is definitely the illumination. In daylight, it's just not there even at the highest setting. The etched reticle is still clear, but the "ghost ring" on it is just useless, so I can't get the fast target acquisition that I can with a RDS like aimpoint/eotech (my brain will fixate on bright red dots faster than any reticle, hands down). Also, the illumination has a bad habit of flickering because a slight design flaw; mine has started to after about 500-600 rounds on it. YMMV. Fortunately, Vortex has a unlimited no BS warranty so they'll fix it for free and pay shipping- truly great people to work with. Get a Cattail for the mag ring, and you're in business.

I wrote up a review for the PA mount on AR15.com: LINK The gist of it is it's an entirely reliable mount that's rock solid. Doesn't have the niceties of a ADM/Larue QD mount, but it does come significantly cheaper.

Hope that'll help you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure where that bit of information came from </div></div>
I go to a practical rifle course every month at a local rifle club where we go through rifle drills (anything from a VTAC barricade drill, to a USPA type rifle course). Couple of the guys there are cops (1 SWAT from DeKalb IL, 1 cop from Cicero, 1 IL state trooper) and a couple more are guys who were in the sandbox. They were the ones that told me for an outright competition 3 gun build, the SF breaks are unmatched, but they wouldn't want to use one indoors. I've definitely handled a lot of weapons with the SF break and I love em; double taps are amazing with em on. But I have to agree with them, the concussion especially to squad mates who might be within a yard of you directly to the left/right would be pretty detrimental. To me, it felt like someone fired off a 7mm magnum next to me RO'ing for a guy running a 5.56 w/ SF break. I'd say the blast is worse than the FSC 556 TTO. Again, I would still love to get one for a dedicated 3G build- And unfortunately, suppressors aren't allowed in my commi state of IL... :-/ (again, I'm definitely not out to slam against SF products; I love em as noted by the M300 Scout on my rifle, and my G2/G2Z lights elsewhere)
 
#20
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

Roger that. I'm not saying you can't find a brake that feels softer indoors...there probably are some. But within a reasonable range, sensitivity to impulse or noise as relates to gunfighting is a training issue. If your teammate's muzzle blast pointing away from you is disturbing -- imagine the effect of the muzzle blast coming at you from the bad guy's weapon.

WTSHTF, friendly muzzle blast will be way down the list of things things that bother you -- getting first (and second) round hits will be your primary concern.

If a brake is someone's first choice for 3gun because it allows them to get rounds on target faster than anything else, but that same person chooses not to use that brake on their duty weapon because they don't perceive it as the most comfortable in a confined space -- then I would ask them to visualize the use of the brake not in the training environment, but the environment they are training for.

In other words, it's more important to prevail in combat than to be comfortable in training.

Of course, if a brake controls your recoil but knocks your entire team of their feet, that would be a different matter. But that's not the case here.

A SureFire brake is tuned to port the gas in the way that most effectively controls recoil and muzzle rise -- by necessity that means gas and sound waves must be directed in specific angles. The Impulse Diffusion design means that gas has the minimal negative affect on team communication and with regards to teammate proximity, while still achieving a very high degree of safety and weapon control.

Safety Note: Some brakes (not SureFire's) can literally cut and flay your flesh if you get too close to the brake. No brake should be touched during firing, but some brakes need extra care.

Of course, I work for the company, so I could be full of it...
smile.gif
But really, I just want our customers to be fully informed and focused on the issues that matter most to their survival.

And I hope you won't take my comments as argumentative. You obviously have some time behind a trigger and you have shared some good data points...I would hope to return the favor.
 
#21
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WTSHTF, friendly muzzle blast will be way down the list of things things that bother you -- getting first (and second) round hits will be your primary concern.
</div></div>

Not taking it to be argumentative at all, I think you're bringing up valid points. When adrenaline is free flowing, and sensory perceptions start tunneling, you're probably very right in that blast will be a null consideration unlike during training.

You also bring up another interesting point; despite our best intentions, we end up training in a comfort zone rather than what may be best for survival. I know I personally replaced my FSC556 with a BCE BC2.0 because I wanted to be kinder to the guys I'm squadded with at a competition (this was before I found out the BC2.0 is better anyways). Other guys have also made the swap from other breaks like the Levang linear to the BC2.0 for similar reasons rather than just flat out efficiency.

Just out of curiosity, which breaks are the ones you're mentioning which can flay someone??
shocked.gif
most breaks I've seen can blow off chunks of 1x2 beams with muzzle blast if shot in too close of proximity, but I always assumed that was normal...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I can say is WOW! Nice looking gun buddy. You should be able to ring steel with that. grin</div></div>

Thanks man
smile.gif
I think with this rig, I can start being really annoying and start aiming for the bolts holding up the MGM steel targets just to see how fast I can knock down the target for good
smile.gif
[besides, they're just $0.50 home depot bolts anyways!]
 
#24
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

I was waiting for someone to say you aren't really going to notice it in close proximity during a gunfight. Hell, I've been right next to 240s, SMAW-Ds, etc. going off during the fight and you're too amped up to notice unless you're unfortunate enough to be directly in the backblast area (yeah - Afghan National Army tends not to give a shit who is there when they fire their RPGs, nor do they say anything.) Yes, it might be mildly annoying when doing repetition after repetition in the training house, but if you're using it in the actual fight it's going to be one of the last things you notice, if even.
 
#25
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

Took it to the range today and ran it through its paces. And to satisfy the Rifle Gods, I even tried doing a proper barrel break in... Happy to report it runs like a dream, and is damn accurate and MOA with factory ammo.

<span style="font-weight: bold">GROUP RESULTS </span>(done on sandbags):

#1: 5 Shots at 100Y w/ Hornady Factory 55gr Vmax; 1.119 MOA
DSC01809.jpg

#2: 5 shots at 100Y w/ American Eagle 55 gr; 1.395 MOA
DSC01805.jpg

#3: 5 shots at 100Y w/ Silver Bear 62gr; 1.208 MOA
DSC01807.jpg

#4: 5 shots at 100Y w/ pulled 62gr SS109 bullets + 25 gr WC844; 1.432 MOA
DSC01806.jpg

#5: 10 shots at 100Y w/ pulled 62gr SS109 + 25gr WC844; 1.385 MOA
DSC01808.jpg


Did both a 5 & 10 shot group with my reloaded 62gr SS109 rounds because I've got a sizeable stash to burn through that I developed for another gun. I bet if I work up my loads correctly, I can get sub-MOA with a $0.15 reloaded SS109 rounds.

62 GR SS109 w/ 25 GR WC844 Clocked in at:
2682 FPS
2687 FPS
2691 FPS
w/ a Beta Chrony placed 10 ft in front of barrel.
Previously, my 16" Carbine build w/ otherwise identical parts would shoot the same bullets at about 2600-2630 FPS; the midlength barrel gives a modest boost in velocity.

<span style="font-weight: bold">NOTE:</span> I also tried to use <span style="color: #FF0000">Hornady's SuperVarmint </span>factory ammo with this gun and it <span style="color: #FF0000">FAILED</span> so hard. On the 2nd round, it caused a double fire which was interesting... And on examination of the fired brass, 3 of 5 of them had punctured primer cups. As per Hornady's recommendations, DON"T USE SUPERVARMINT ON A GAS GUN w/ a <20" BARREL + RIFLE GAS SYSTEM.

<span style="font-weight: bold">TEST 2:</span> 3x30RD MAG DUMPS
Results: passed; no malfunctions, no FTF/FTE. I realize this isn't a true torture test by any means; it's just what I could do with the bullets I brought to the range
eek.gif


<span style="font-weight: bold">TEST 3:</span> 1/2 & 1/2 DRILL:
The VTAC 1/2 & 1/2 drill consists of firing at a 8" target from different distances and w/ different time limits from a standing position. 1st is from 20 yards, 10 seconds, 10 rounds; 2nd is 10 yards, 5 seconds, 10 rounds; 3rd is 5 yards, 2.5 seconds, 10 rounds. Goal is to get all rounds off within time period and try to get all rounds inside the 8" circle.
Results: 30/30 rounds in the 8" targets; this rifle has the most moderate recoil and muzzle flip of any rifle I've built to date. Previously, I've only been able to get 24-27/30 rounds into the 8" circle. The combination of the Battle-Comp, a midlength gas system, extra power spring and heavier ST-T2 buffer all contribute to a very manageable rifle. Shooting 10 rounds in 2.5 seconds @ 5Y was no problem; rifle cycled just fine and my POA never came out of the circle at any point.

Rifle balance is great; not something I want to hold in a shooting position all day long, but definitely something I can hold up to engage and do some shoot & scoot with with. Scope's generous eye relief allows for very fast target acquisition coming out of a low slinged ready to a shoot position. Also have to point out that the Mount-n-Slot CSAP hook is great for off-hand transitions using the MS2; I had previously attached my MS2 to the UBR via a QD swivel on the left side, and it made transitions awkward and things would snag sometimes; the CSAP eliminates the problem entirely.
 
#26
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

Funny... you don't measure the width of a group, and definitely include the <span style="font-style: italic">entire</span> group. Most will measure center to center, so your .922" image is really like 1.5"

tgtgfx.jpg
 
#28
Re: My new 3Gun AR15

Excellent info all around. Thanks.

and after the range trip, it seem to shoot just fine for what you plan to do with it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NightHawkIX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am curious to hear your opinion on the vortex, and the PA mount. I have had my eye on that particular 1-4 for a while. does the reticle help you get on target fast at 1x and yet stay sharp and get out of the way at 4x? </div></div>
I've used the Vortex/PA mount on my previous carbine and here's some thoughts:

The Vortex is great; a nice clear piece of glass. At 1X, the eye relief is just awesome and comparable to a TR24 and better than the TR21; definitely allows for both eyes open type shooting. At 4X, the reticle is a ranging reticle which is nice (with practice), and the eye relief is still decent (about .5-0.75" wiggle in any direction from optimum). I'd say I can easily shoot a IPSC silhouette target out to 400Y with the PST1-4X and a decent bullet. (take that with a grain of salt though, since I also shoot 600Y high power targets with a service rifle iron sight.) The downside is definitely the illumination. In daylight, it's just not there even at the highest setting. The etched reticle is still clear, but the "ghost ring" on it is just useless, so I can't get the fast target acquisition that I can with a RDS like aimpoint/eotech (my brain will fixate on bright red dots faster than any reticle, hands down). Also, the illumination has a bad habit of flickering because a slight design flaw; mine has started to after about 500-600 rounds on it. YMMV. Fortunately, Vortex has a unlimited no BS warranty so they'll fix it for free and pay shipping- truly great people to work with. Get a Cattail for the mag ring, and you're in business.

I wrote up a review for the PA mount on AR15.com: LINK The gist of it is it's an entirely reliable mount that's rock solid. Doesn't have the niceties of a ADM/Larue QD mount, but it does come significantly cheaper.

Hope that'll help you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure where that bit of information came from </div></div>
I go to a practical rifle course every month at a local rifle club where we go through rifle drills (anything from a VTAC barricade drill, to a USPA type rifle course). Couple of the guys there are cops (1 SWAT from DeKalb IL, 1 cop from Cicero, 1 IL state trooper) and a couple more are guys who were in the sandbox. They were the ones that told me for an outright competition 3 gun build, the SF breaks are unmatched, but they wouldn't want to use one indoors. I've definitely handled a lot of weapons with the SF break and I love em; double taps are amazing with em on. But I have to agree with them, the concussion especially to squad mates who might be within a yard of you directly to the left/right would be pretty detrimental. To me, it felt like someone fired off a 7mm magnum next to me RO'ing for a guy running a 5.56 w/ SF break. I'd say the blast is worse than the FSC 556 TTO. Again, I would still love to get one for a dedicated 3G build- And unfortunately, suppressors aren't allowed in my commi state of IL... :-/ (again, I'm definitely not out to slam against SF products; I love em as noted by the M300 Scout on my rifle, and my G2/G2Z lights elsewhere)</div></div>
 
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