My Next Action: Defiance vs. Impact vs. Curtis

[envitro99]

Hey y'all, greetings from the Great White North!

Let me set the story. I set my Rem700 5R Gen 2 6.5CM barrelled action into an MDT ACC chassis and it has been performing just fine, accuracy-wise. Practiced lots with it for about a year, and entered my first PRS-style competition up here this past summer during the COVID let-down up here (before the fall spike).
The one thing I noticed is that the action is not all that smooth (compared to customs, obviously), and I did have some issues with feeding from the AICS mags at times that cost me completing a few stages in the PAR time allotted. This pissed me off to no end. So I've been fiddling with it, and have decided to say "to hell with it" and build a new action/barrel combo to go into the chassis I already have.

So, I "think" I've narrowed it down to the three named actions and have read every thread I could get my hands on here. However, I haven't felt any of these actions in person and haven't cycled them. I don't even think there is anywhere near me to do so.

With that said, here are the three I'm leaning toward, in no particular order:

Impact 737
Defiance Deviant (or maybe Tenacity)
Curtis Valor

I've looked at the Terminus Zeus also, but it's pretty close to the Curtis Valor (given the shared history of those two brands, not sure which to go with).

My main requirements are:

• Must fit in my MDT ACC R700 SA chassis without any other fitment/inletting
• Butter smooth feel
• Must feed flawlessly
• Must have pre-fit barrels available for DIY barrel changes
• Good support by good people that stand behind their product

Probably can't go wrong on any of these, but just wanted to throw that out there. I'm also somewhat limited to which action brands are available here in Canada, but any thoughts or pro's & cons would be helpful.

 

[spife7980]

If you can’t adjust your mags properly you can/will still have the same issues with a butter smooth custom.

 

[orkan]

Impact or Lone Peak would be my choice.

 

[IPoutdoors]

I dont think Deviant is guaranteed headspace for prefit barrel. they make the Ruckus for that.

 

[Shooter J]

Impact or Lone Peak would be my choice.

I couldn't agree more. I picked up a Lone Peak earlier in the year and love it!

It performs every time and I can single feed it if needed.

 

[IPoutdoors]

I couldn't agree more. I picked up a Lone Peak earlier in the year and love it!

It performs every time and I can single feed it if needed.

just curious, what action does not allow single feed?

 

[Shooter J]

I have always had problems with nose dive in my Curtis actions.

 

[NiteQwill]

Adjust your mags lips.

Otherwise, Impact 737R handsdown.

 

[Shooter J]

Sorry, that was not the best term to use on my end. I meant to say that if I tried to throw a single round into the action, when I tried to close the bolt the round would drop in the front and jam against the barrel breach. With the Lone Peak I can single feed with no issues.

And yes Impact make fantastic actions.

 

[ta6ppc]

I have a Curtis vector, I bought if from Alamo precision rifles as a barreled action. Currently it resides in a KRG whiskey 3 chassis. I only have 2 magpul plastic mags at this time and I have been able to fit them and they will feed provided your not touching,pressing or applying pressure to the mag in any way I also think the vector is the smoothest and quickest action I have ever had.. I have a few metal AW mags in the mail headed to me, and I think without a doubt I can tune them to work, but it’s something to think about the large .750” diameter bolt will force you to open the mag lips, file them down, adjust the mag catch, and buy a new bore guide! But the roller bearing on the fire control and the ease of pulling the firing pin out is really nice features. Custom actions are really nice, and I don’t think you can go wrong with any one of the majors!

 

[envitro99]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Yes, I was going to tweak my mags, but I'm afraid to do so if it's unnecessary once I get the new action.Don't want to mess up my mags just in case, happy to tweak away once the new setup is in place.

 

[jcmullis2]

Defiance is what I run and they are sweet. You can get prefit barrels for the Defiance tenacity and ruckus actions. I could tell you why I wouldn’t buy any of the others but i don’t like condemning a product based on my singular experience. Get a defiance and you’ll be glad that you did.

 

[T-TurtleWang]

Go with Impact. Their actions run in all kinds of dirty conditions and you can't even feel the dirt. It's smooth everytime. It's a step above a Curtis action any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

[padom]

Ill throw the TL3 into the mix. Ive been running them in all kinds of conditions since the day the TL3 was released and have 4 now. Couldnt be happier.

 

[envitro99]

Thanks for the honesty folks!

 

[jimmyrjessie]

Defiance is grea

 

[Tony1320]

I would talk to Insite Arms see if they will let you handle a few different actions

I would also highly recommend you have them build it

Impact 737r does feel slick I would be surprised if you didn't like it

Defiance are nice too but they are on the tighter side by default if your going to be in dirty conditions this is worth considering

 

[Matt_3479]

where abouts in Canada are you?

I have stiller tac 30, kelbly atlas tactical, 2 defiance deviants (stainless and dlc’d), zermatt tl3 and a terminus Zeus. I had a Curtis vector too.

If your looking for prefits the deviant is out but look into the ruckus or tenacity. That said the defiance line of actions are stunning. Real piece of art. They are smooth, refined, and feel like they are built to last. They are tight though and can run into an issue or too with extreme conditions. I am very pleased with them and they are nice actions

I’d recommend terminus over Curtis personally but both are good actions. Just like the owner or terminus, customer service and the slightly more refined and innovative action. The set screw barrel threading is easily the most user friendly and easiest system on the market! Works incredibly well!! As well as the set screws for the triggers! You just can’t get easier for user friendly.

The tl3’s are slick as snot, super light bolt lift and incredibly user friendly. Have a slight tendency to bind as there tolerances are a little looser. I can’t seem to make it bind while shooting but while dry firing I can. Extremely pleased with this action. Loaded with features!!

The kelbly are an amazing bang for the buck. A ton of features, wildly smooth, absolute fantastic customer service and family ran business! Prefits available.

The stiller are nice but are my least favourite and won’t buy another. They are good actions but there is significantly better for the money or just better in general. It was my first action and the smith who did the build absolutely killed it and the gun shoots so incredible but the action is the only thing I wish I had spent the extra buck on.

Hope this helps in anyway possible. I’m pleased with all my actions and would highly recommend any of them other then the stiller. I’ve handled the impact and they feel incredible too and will most likely be the next one for me to try. That or ks 3 lug

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I have run tikka, Remington 700, Curtis and Origin in a ton of different calibers and never have had to ‘tweak’ an ARC mag

 

[S3th]

You would be pretty crazy not going Terminus Zeus.

 

[b6graham]

if you want good support that rules curtis out right away. as if the zeus wasnt the obvious choice already

beyond that. it should be ruckus versus impact in the 90 degree field and i'd take a lone peak over both

 

[ManUtdManiac]

@orkan do you have a view of ARC actions? Any of them? Interested in your thoughts.

 

[b6graham]

@orkan do you have a view of ARC actions? Any of them? Interested in your thoughts.

the M5 mausingfield is awesome. would love to play with an M7

 

[ta6ppc]

I see this comments about support from the action manufacturers and it always leaves me wondering what support does anyone truest need it’s a simple piece of metal with few moving parts and few pieces treat it right it will last a lifetime. If someone is scared that a firing pin will break, buy a spare and keep it on hand.. other than that it’s up to the smith that assembled the damn thing that’s who in my opinion should provide the support..

Of course this is baring and exclusive of a complete failure or a metallurgy issue or some crazy coating issue.

 

[gnochi]

the M5 mausingfield is awesome. would love to play with an M7

Love my M9 Nucleus, waiting on the California DROS to go through for an M3 Archimedes but it felt awesome in the shop.

 

[b6graham]

I see this comments about support from the action manufacturers and it always leaves me wondering what support does anyone truest need it’s a simple piece of metal with few moving parts and few pieces treat it right it will last a lifetime. If someone is scared that a firing pin will break, buy a spare and keep it on hand.. other than that it’s up to the smith that assembled the damn thing that’s who in my opinion should provide the support..

Of course this is baring and exclusive of a complete failure or a metallurgy issue or some crazy coating issue.

okay i'll rephrase it.

do you want the owner to be on a buck holly level or someone who actually has morals?

 

[ta6ppc]

Hmmm well from the day you place your order, till the day you sell that action(or die) you may need that customer service. If you're ordering an action that's not in stock, you may be dealing/communicating with CS for 2-12 months depending how good or piss poor they are at hitting target dates. Then after the action shows up, you may deal with them again. My lone peak had burrs inside the firing pin race way and it was causing the pin the hang fire giving inconsistent ignition. LPA supplied a new bolt after much deliberation from my smith and I. Then there was the issue of headspace and timing the fire control system on the new bolt, and lone peak WOUND NOT address this. So my smith had to cut the cocking piece down to time it to my trigger and give 240k pin fall. I would call this half ass customer service, replaced the bolt, but wanted nothing to do with making it work as to spec in their action, that was left up to me. I had the dlc coating wearing off a bolt from another high end manufacturer, very prematurely. I wish I'd just mentally dealt with it, because it took 5 months to get it back this summer. So yeah......we'd all love to have zero contact with customer service, but you will deal with them in one or multiple dimensions.

That’s a pretty tragic case you had there. In your case it seems like epic customer service for sure.
personally what you described is why I typically don’t order things, I usually find someone who has stock of different things and I can pick one from their stock. I guess I kinda settle in some ways but I haven’t ended up with a horror story yet either.

 

[ta6ppc]

okay i'll rephrase it.

do you want the owner to be on a buck holly level or someone who actually has morals?

I don’t even know what this means, you took the time to comment, use what you may have learned in the third grade and put a sentence together..

 

[b6graham]

I don’t even know what this means, you took the time to comment, use what you may have learned in the third grade and put a sentence together..

i'm saying chase curtis and buck holly should be business partners

 

[Dthomas3523]

Depending on if you have a preference of bolt feel/lift, these are some pretty different actions.

Curtis - roller ball and will be totally different than most any action

Impact - 50/50 cock on open/close

Defiance - I’ve totally forgotten. Someone else can chime in.

I went with lone peak over impact simple because I prefer the 100% cock on open and very little effort to close the bolt.

 

[Sprayed99]

3 very different actions that you have posted here.

Curtis - 60 degree bolt throw, some reports of crap service, and not as much aftermarket support (on the shelf options)

Defiance Deviant - not a prefit action that I know of, some reports of issues (I have had a few), final coating or finish is not available unless you pay extra, too many options to have a lot of stocks available if you decided to change your out later. <<< If you want perfect fitment.

Impact - the 737R is a 737R, no options, plentiful prefit options. Stock options galore, and they come nitride which is slick and fast out of the box. Also, the ability to practice with a 223, shoot a standard bolt face for comps if that's your thing, then screw on a magnum for hunting, and all you need is a bolt and barrel. No need for another action body.

This probably sounds a bit bias, but to be truthful I have owned several actions from about every manufacturer out there and made up my mind on Impacts well before I ever called them. Fast forward some years, I have never had an issue and I have gotten to know Tate and the rest of the gang and they are awesome folks. My vote obviously goes to the Impact. Oh, and the 787 is just as nice as the 737.

Dthomas does have a point above though. I have never owned a Lone Peak or the latest offering from BAT

 

[Hawk in WY]

^^^

This.

I am running two Impact 787's and one 737. I'm about to order another 737.

I have a few other custom actions including a Mausingfield M7, an Origin, and a Rebel. All are very nice. I am the least happy with the Rebel. It will bind if not kept clean. The best advice I received from those with more experience than me was, "You would be happy with any of those, but you would be happier with an Impact." That has been my experience.

I do not believe the Impact is 50:50 cock on open versus close. Mine feels more like 100:5.

I have spoken with Tate several times. He is a busy guy but has never failed to provide me the advice I needed.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Depending on if you have a preference of bolt feel/lift, these are some pretty different actions.

Curtis - roller ball and will be totally different than most any action

Impact - 50/50 cock on open/close

Defiance - I’ve totally forgotten. Someone else can chime in.

I went with lone peak over impact simple because I prefer the 100% cock on open and very little effort to close the bolt.

Pardon my ignorance but I dont know what this means?

Watching with interest as I too am in the market for one of the actions being discussed here.

Anyone know if Lone Peak is available in Canada? If not Impact seems like a good choice......

 

[gnochi]

Pardon my ignorance but I dont know what this means?

Watching with interest as I too am in the market for one of the actions being discussed here.

Anyone know if Lone Peak is available in Canada? If not Impact seems like a good choice......

It takes X amount of work (force times distance) to cock a bolt. The first number is what percentage happens when you’re preparing to pull the bolt back, simultaneously with primary extraction with the overwhelming majority of actions, and the second number is the percentage that happens when you’re chambering a round.

A cock-on-open action (100/0) and cock-on-close action (0/100) both require a fair bit of force on the bolt to make that happen, while a 50/50 action takes about half as much force because you have twice as much motion to use to cock everything.

The ultimate result is sometimes you might lose sight picture when opening but closing is no problem, or vice versa, and some actions like the impact cause a slight change in sight picture on both operations but probably not enough to lose track of where you are.

 

[Matt_3479]

Pardon my ignorance but I dont know what this means?

Watching with interest as I too am in the market for one of the actions being discussed here.

Anyone know if Lone Peak is available in Canada? If not Impact seems like a good choice......

I know Gary at bighorn brings them in from time to time but he doesn’t like them all that much. Rps international might as well.

Tom at go big tactical carries defiance, American rifle company and bighorn, Gary at bighorn carries defiance, bighorn and terminus, Shane at em is big supplier for Curtis, and insite carries impact

 

[envitro99]

where abouts in Canada are you?

......

Amazing writeup, thanks so much! Really appreciate the insight into all of the different actions.

I'm in Calgary, AB.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

I know Gary at bighorn brings them in from time to time but he doesn’t like them all that much. Rps international might as well.

Tom at go big tactical carries defiance, American rifle company and bighorn, Gary at bighorn carries defiance, bighorn and terminus, Shane at em is big supplier for Curtis, and insite carries impact

Great info - thank you very much.

I'm slowly narrowing down which action is the best fit for me and now I know who sells what I'm good to go.

For what i can tell so far there are a lot of good actions out there and I would most likely be very happy with any of them as they would be a considerable step up from a factory rifle action but its a game of compromises.

The first compromise came from thinking that I'd like a 60 degree bolt throw but I'm hearing that is generally at the expense of a heavier bolt lift and less reliable feeding (an issue which can most likely be overcome with some tweaking).

90 degree bolt throw is better on both these points it seems but at the expense of getting too close to the scope / scope throw lever and catching your hand. This issue can most probably be safeguarded against with training / technique and this is what I am leaning towards. The laws of physics dictate that 90 degree throw will take longer (physically has to move further) but thats a moot point for me as the extra time will be very minimal.

Ive read lots about how some actions have incredible tolerances via excellent quality machining but that can cause problems in real world situations like PRS matches where dirty / dusty conditions can cause the action to bind. Another compromise and something to be aware of if PRS or similar is your intended use.

Then throw in additional features like CRF for example, if that is important then you could end up compromising on some of the other features you desire to get that over an action which is a better fit in every other way but does not offer this.

Decisions, decisions..........

In an ideal world handling the actions and getting a feel would help to decide but that just isn't possible in my locality unfortunately.

 

[b6graham]

there is no time difference between a 90 and 60. yeah it's less distance but it's more force and potentially more off target with movement.

the reality is. get used to both and it's all the same motion. inhale opening bolt. exhale closing bolt. break shot at respiratory pause. repeat.

don't confuse tolerances with clearances.
Defiance. high tolerance. smaller clearance. ruckes/tenacity take prefits. well machined actions. hence the reputation for being crap in moon dust environments
Zermatt. high tolerance. more clearance. machined extremely well. but have some 'slop' if you don't know how to run them in a smooth fashion. these clearances allow them to run in worse environments.
stock rem 700. low tolerance and highest clearance. sloppy all around

 

[gnochi]

Thank you for clarifying the difference between tolerance and clearance! Quick note on that - each of high/low can refer to either tight tolerances (small standard deviations relative to nominal size) or loose tolerances (larger standard deviations relative to nominal size), depending on who you’re talking to. Just to make life fun

One of the things I like about the Archimedes is the decoupling of primary extraction from cocking the bolt. Seems to me that it could end up being faster to run with sticky cases with no loss of time or barrel movement on normal cases.

 

[IPoutdoors]

I think it is better to find out what is causing your sticky rounds instead of a bad aid solution. Could be pressure signs. I dont get this whole “leverage” hoopla. If you are having troubles with your loads, stop shooting and re evaluate.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Impact.

 

[gnochi]

I think it is better to find out what is causing your sticky rounds instead of a bad aid solution. Could be pressure signs. I dont get this whole “leverage” hoopla. If you are having troubles with your loads, stop shooting and re evaluate.

Ideally! The occasional outlier slipping into a match happens though. Or maybe there was some dust blowing around that got things caught up a bit.

Regarding the Impact, it’s basically the perfect true clone of the R700. Lone Peak is up there as well. If you don’t care about other features, you’ll be very pleased.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I dont think Deviant is guaranteed headspace for prefit barrel. they make the Ruckus for that.

I know this post was early in this thread and I have skimmed through the rest of it. With that said -

I had a 6.5CM / .223 Rem switchbarrel rig built on a Defiance Deviant last summer. At the outset, my smith and local longtime friend noted that he had built a number of rifles on the Deviant actions and headspace from one copy to another did vary more than on some other brands.

But, shortening a sorta length story - Defiance said the have really tightened tolerances for our burgeoning prefit era. Turned out the .223 bolt, ordered separately from the .308 action, fit perfectly. Two barrels, two different bolts, one action... all the dimensions were perfect. I don't have the exact numbers, but I know where they are - my smith has detailed records of every build he's ever done. That's how he was able to demonstrate the headspace range of every Deviant he's done, and to easily confirm that my action conformed exactly to what Defiance said the current Deviants should measure.

Fwiw. I'm sure Defiance would provide more detail but I don't know that they have a presence here.

The more I run the Defiance-based rig, the slicker it gets. And it started pretty darn slick.

 

[b6graham]

the deviant isn't guaranteed haadscape because there are 10 different options for it unlike most custom actions which are just size, boltface, and maybe mag cut

 

[Edds]

The first custom action I ever purchased was a BAT HR. I had never handled one, I bought it based on the stuff I had read. After that I went to a SHOT show specifically to handle as many actions as I could.

Since then I have purchased 4 Surgeon actions, 5 Defiance Rebel actions, and 1 Defiance Deviant Tactical action.

It may not be suitable for all applications but of the actions I own and the ones I've handled, I think the Deviant Tactical is the best.

My next custom action purchase will likely be another Deviant Tactical.

 

[tlr16]

Defiant Deviant is my favorite of the different ones I've had

 

[Stoweit]

I started with a Curtis, had to do a lot of mag work to make them work, replaced firing pin spring for light strikes. Heavy bolt lift.
Next I bought an Archimedes. Shot great, no mag issues. I don’t reload, so extraction advantage lost on me. Solid action.
Always wanted an Impact, put it in Manners TCS stock and couldn’t be happier. Never had an issue, every mag I tried works flawlessly. So smooth to cycle, and just feels right. I can literally throw a round in the chamber and it cycles like it was fed out of the mag. Curtis didn’t run very well when trying to single feed.
If you can try running some of these at a match, you will see which feels best to you.
As for me I couldn’t be happier with the Impact.

 

[jcmullis2]

the deviant isn't guaranteed haadscape because there are 10 different options for it unlike most custom actions which are just size, boltface, and maybe mag cut

The Deviant is more “custom” because of all the choices. The others are low volume production actions that people have been calling custom. That’s how I see it anyway.

 

[Lynn313]

I’ve been getting rid of my Defiance actions and going all Impact. Thier actions and barrels are cut to the closest tolerances possible. It crazy how they have made something available to us that the best gunsmiths can’t rival.

 

[ormandj]

I’ve been getting rid of my Defiance actions and going all Impact. Thier actions and barrels are cut to the closest tolerances possible. It crazy how they have made something available to us that the best gunsmiths can’t rival.

Defiance (and many other) action manufacturers have actions that can have pre-fit barrels attached. CNC machining allows for repeatably tight tolerances with properly maintained machines and cutting tools. This is not unique to Impact.