PRS Talk My Solution to Prize Table Bias

[Lowlight]

So, I mentioned this on my podcast, and I have been hesitant to mention it out loud until it was 100% in place. Since that podcast mention, I have received at least a 1/2 dozen calls and messages about my solution as I did not spell it out.

The real test of whether this sport is about is about the group or the individual, will be the reaction.

So, how do we solve this idea of Prize Table Bias, and by bias, I mean balancing the reward for attending a precision rifle match? Many feel it is front-loaded, and other feel they attend more matches or they belong to Series so they deserve something a casual attendee does not. Their investment in the Series is higher is how they rationale it.

I will reward the Top 3 shooters in an event, and then everyone after that will get a series of discount codes.

If the sponsors of an event enable a series of discount codes for the matches they sponsor both sides win. The sponsor is not out of pocket for all the matches that request prizes or sponsors and ALL THE SHOOTER WIN.

If a sponsor gives a match an Item, that Item can be used, or sold, in some cases, it might it used but never seen again. Think of the case a shooter sponsors by Vortex who pulls a Nightforce off a prize table. He will not attend the next match with an NF because he is sponsored by Vortex. He probably took the NF off the table because it's expensive. While he may keep it, he may also want to sell it to fund his hobby. Prizes should not really be there to fund your hobby, that is not the purpose and was never the intent. Companies actually frown on seeing their donation posted for sale, it gets mentioned a ton. Win it on Sunday and Sell it online Monday is supported by no company.

Moving to discount codes across the majority of the events will streamline the process on so many levels. Print the codes out and hand them to every shooter after the match, now you are not waiting for Jersey Johnny to pick his prize, that part if finished. You can leave much sooner, reward the Top 3 of each segment and you are done. The Prize table crawl is gone, you're home an hour earlier.

The discount codes support the sponsors, they only work if you buy from them. They can afford to sponsor more events, minus the $50,000 buy in to sponsor a Series Season. It saves the shooter a lot of money and makes the sponsors some money in return.

Of course, the more generous the discount, the more popular the sponsor will be, but in many cases, it still won't hurt their bottom line.

Request a Specialized Discount Code and now you can track sales and reach. You have a metric to work with.

4th Place gets the same level of respect as 104th place. 4th and 104th Place takeaway the same amount of opportunity for attending your match.

Less money for shipping, less coordination for the Match Director, in total it's less work for everybody, it's faster, with a bigger return on investment.

They can share the codes socially, they can be time-limited, X Code from Sponsor A works for 3 months after the match, works for 6 months after the match, etc. If they get shared online it's a win, win, more business, and greater opportunity. Think about the Midway Discount Codes, we used to have threads just about the most recent code. More codes mean keeping both business and shooting moving forward.

You can supplement the table with certain products, and they will mean more. If there are only 10 prizes, that gives those more value. But everyone loves a discount code.

So, that is my solution .... feel free to discuss.

 

[CavReconScout]

Another plus is you wouldn’t have to worry about the prizes being stolen by an employee of the shipper. We had that happen at a regional series match last year.

 

[HoustonB77]

Unfortunately I'm not a match shooter at this time in my life. Family and work really put a damper on my weekend free time. That being said this sounds like a good idea to me. This gives shooters more incentive to end up in the top three while allowing everybody else the ability to get in on a special! Sounds like a win for both the business and the consumer.

 

[nfoley]

Sorry, I don't like it. I shoot a fair amount, and I like the big matches. They are fun with a lot of shooting opportunity, and there is the thrill of competition with potential for cool prizes. The better you do the better chance at something cool.
The idea that the top 3 guys get rewarded, and then everyone else just gets a participation award is not very exciting to me. Doubt I would continue to take as much time off work and invest as much money in the bigger shoots if it were to come down to this.
just my .02

 

[djarecke]

I like to shoot long range steel and I do my best to win every event I enter. Honestly, I don’t care what you do with the prize table as that does not motivate me. Winning does.

If there were no prizes at all, I’d still be there every weekend trying to shoot my best because I love the sport and there’s always something to learn. I enjoy the guys I shoot with and helping other shooters do well and improve their result.

 

[TheGerman]

The real way to see whose in it for the sport is to just do away with the fucking prize table. 1-3 get some sort of a 1 of a kind very nice trophy/award and the recognition that they won. Seems to be the majority of the bullshit drama I hear and read in PRS all circles around to the prize table.

Anyone that whines about 'muh prize table' and doesn't want to shoot, wasn't there to shoot anyways.

I'm not sure where these prize tables sprung out of and I'm not sure when this shit got out of control. I did PRS before it was called PRS and this wasn't an issue. Ironically, when the jersery bro club and tacticool seal devgru marsoc call of duty wanna be snipers started showing up (and it eventually turned into PRS) was around the time the majority of the original tac comp shooters said 'Fuck this, Im out' and shit like the prize table circle jerk commenced and eventually evolved into what it is now.

You want to compete and shoot to see how you rate against yourself and others; go fucking shoot. Placing high/improving is the prize; too many betas apparently don't understand that the true prize is the ability to instill your will upon others. Instead, they're all worried about 'but muh nightforce scope' and seeing how many squares on the 'I brought way too many shooting aides and I look retarded' bingo sheet they can check off.

 

[Lowlight]

Myopic,

Some would rather take that 1 thing, mainly to sell it, vs truly supporting the sponsors of an event.

Instead of walking away with a $750 barrel, a discount on every component across 50+ sponsors will give them so much more back, it's crazy. You could build an entire rifle off the discount at a much bigger saving vs taking one thing off the prize table.

It's basically My Fault as we used to promote our prize tables at Rifles Only as they grew so big. Beyond $200k. But now with so many more matches, everyone with their hands out. These competitors have no idea what it does to sponsors who get very little in return. They want to take and not give back, that is why discount codes won't work for them. It's all about them, and the sponsors be damned. Very few of the sponsors are getting any return on a match investment, this would extend the sport and open the door for more sponsors.

 

[Diver160651]

What if there was a slight hybrid?

Maybe you also have a raffle for a couple of prices. Everyone in the match also gets a single raffle ticket in addition to a participation discount code.

Maybe #1 or 2 (whatever) get the check/prizes - depending on match size..

But then 3# thru #20 or whatever get a addition raffle tickets based on their finish order:

In this case:
The last place get 1 raffle ticket in addition their discount code.

#20 gets the same as last place + 1 addition raffle
#19 same as last place + 2 extra tickets
Etc all the way to #4 getting same as last place + 17 extra tickets.

If I want to leave early because I was in last place no problem... but as we do the guys that stay start getting a better and better chance of wining something.

R/O’s get extra tickets Maybe equal to the highest not paid /gift position as in this example 4 place for a total 18 tickets/chances to win.

Depending on the match size it could be several raffle items or a club March maybe a 4pk of Spindrift..

 

[Lowlight]

Of course there would be a hybrid, but it would not feed the top.

 

[reich10]

I say give some monitary value to the top, whatever that is(1-3,1-10, etc), and then randomly give out the prizes. I think that would put the sponsors products in people hands who aren't sppnsored and actually might need/use them.
I like the discount code certificate idea as well.

Was the purpose of the PRS to professionalize long range shooting? I have read their about page and know they give prizes but wasn't sure if it trying to support someone who has quit their job to become a shooter.

 

[Sierra770]

Well this certainly benefits both sides. Those Seekins Precision discount codes cards that were given out last year certainly caused me to buy a bunch of Seekins products.

 

[Mudlol]

I like the idea.

But I wonder how much longer the prize table idea will last? Looks like we are past the peak and heading downhill fast.

 

[Diver160651]

I like the idea.

But I wonder how much longer the prize table idea will last? Looks like we are past the peak and heading downhill fast.

"My" take away is that was Frank's point. He is looking at what it has become and towards the future, trying to cut costs/labor, while trying to increase the actual value to the vendors/sponsors. Tracking ROI is another thing that marketing needs and loves, this checks that box (wife is a marketing exec). The end game being to make it more interesting to ALL shooters/ROs.

It really would open up the door to what might be considered valuable.. entrants might also be offered more than one item discount code..

This certainly will help head companies participate as they deal off the big retraction in add budgets that might be needed in this anti-gun climate.

 

[Changed]

I like the idea, especially if there might be a few random drawings. However, I do have a question. How many MD’s run matches to make a profit? If there are 100 shooters with a $250 entry fee, we’re talking about 25k in revenue. So being the devils advocate, and the MD wants to profit, why is it wrong for the shooters to want to win a prize? Again I have no skin in the game. Just asking reasonable questions and trying to understand. Seems the best solution would be no sponsorship for shooters.

 

[D_TROS]

The discount codes is def a way to help sponsors...shooters not so much. And matches even less (for quoted reason) less shooters traveling means less shooters at matches which could be argued will drive up match fees which are already astrominical. You love to reminisce, matches used to be $200 for the2 great ones a yr. Now the min is $275 for a crap show in a corn field. Every tom dik and harry is putting a match on. Good for the sport? sure is, esp for the sponsors...if they all fill.

S... Doubt I would continue to take as much time off work and invest as much money in the bigger shoots if it were to come down to this.
just my .02

Interesting pt. Never even thought of this.



Now when I travel to a match, I win a prize, not always a good one (got a couple sweet tactical kozys) I always grab the highest value product unless the thing I need is near to value that I don't care (passed on a rifle for a scope once as didn't want that cal or deal with transfer bs) I don't know why you wouldn't.

And kind of funny how a sponsor could get upset. First, their product is advertised to 100+ shooters. Second, the prize winner usually sells the prize to a new shooter or someone in need for a great discount, which the new shooter tells even more people about, so the press on the sponsorship is now doubles. Third, we always push only buying product from companies that sponsor matches, so with the $$$ we get from selling prize A with, we use towards another match sponsor for stuff we need, essentially TRIPLING the press for the sponsors.

Circle of shooting lol.

I see no lose here and is really the only solution for shooters that have been shooting for a long time, we have most everything we need other than new gizmos that come out and shooting components (I just spent $4k on powder brass and bullets for the year, I just prepaid $3k for 10 matches not including gas, motel, food, rental, etc)... and again if we sell something we use that $$ for companies that sponsor matches or getting to the next match..

There isn't a single person shooting evil PRS style matches that does it for a living or makes $$ off of it. Esp for the ones that love it, it is even more of a $$ sink no matter how good we are. But dam it feels good when our hard work pays off and we can bring a sweet prize and trophy home. Not a better feeling.

Getting a 50% off a manners stock for a top 10? priceless
Getting a 5% off a manners stock for a top 10? Short of sounding entitled, just doesn't feel the same for the $$ invested to compete I guess (esp when MD is bringing in $25k+ on fees). It would be cheaper to just buy a used one on the hide lol.


YMMV.
DT

 

[Lowlight]

Match participation is up on one front, but down on others, they are completely diluted at this point. And not all of them are selling out.

How does this not help a shooter if you get 50+ discount codes vs 1 prize off a table?

Plus you are assuming the discount will be small, 25% or more from a host of people adds up. I honestly would not accept a simple 5% code that is not the point by any stretch. I would set a minimum for me at least, it's up to others to set their standard.

You guys don't seem to get it if there are 50 matches for a single series, and the Series wants $50k (this is a real number) from a sponsor, that is a huge commitment and in no way in hell do the match participants make up that much in sales to give the sponsor any return on investment $50k for the match series or $50k on here where you reach 6 Million Eyes a month, I will give you a ton of exposure for that amount, more than you'll ever see from a series of matches catering to the same people over and, again, go look at the stats, less than 200 PRS shooters shot enough to attempt to qualify, they have what, 1500 people signed up, and 300 playing how does $50k get justified? And you wonder why it keeps going up for sale every other year.

Most of you guys can't even be bothered to send a thank note, and please don't tell me the 100 shooters are all sending thank you notes, they are lucky to get 25 out of 100, another proven fact.

Goes to show who is about " Me " and who is about the sport and helping it from both sides. If you are selling off your prize table pull to fund your next trip, try shooting a local match and stop traveling so much. You're overextended.

I can tell you this, MDs are not walking away with $25k, you might think that is the case, but the reality is very different. At the end of the day, you end up giving away all your labor because if you add it all up, it disappears pretty quick. The average take home when all said and done is about $3500, maybe $5k if you are smart about it. How often are the MDs at the bar when the competitors are hanging out having fun. Herding cats is not easy, the days are long and does not end when you head home.

 

[Diver160651]

@Lowlight The ski industry offered Pro-forms to racers when I was much younger.. these discounts were usually below wholesale as they were not a loss nor a profit to the companies offering them. All the companies offered something, so we had a choice to buy only what we wanted.

Us 3rd third tier non-sponsored guys ate it up.. and like dumb asses we couldn't wait to show off or cool new stuff.. We'd tell all the newer emerging people how great our product was.. Honestly, we were more loyal than the guys on National teams..

I think they still offer this type of discount to shop employees and racers.. This is similar to your discount code idea.

It works --

 

[sinister]

Several orgs break up the mass into groups --

PRO -- industry-sponsored or full-timers. 1,2,3 finishers (call it Gold, Silver, Bronze). Someone in this class usually wins, but not always.
OPEN -- competing on their own dime and time. Same Gold, Silver, Bronze. Is on the way to figuring it out, has some lucky days.
NOVICE -- new or intro shooters -- no established competition record. Gold, Silver, Bronze. Not threatening anyone, but is trying hard to build skills and bragging rights.

Tops in each go by the prize table. The rest is accorded by finish in class.

 

[HayStax]

Why has a handicap system not evolved in competitive shooting? Aside from a “production” class?

I come from a rodeo background, specifically team roping. It’s a very expensive hobby, horses aren’t cheap and they eat every day. Should be a rich mans game. But it’s not. The number system evens the playing field and everyone competes on the same level. Cash payout, incentive money for certain rounds, it’s a growing sport. Youth, senior, women all work in the number system. Numbers can be gamed a couple times but a committee decides the rankings after every event - you win you move up, simple.

Please excuse my ignorance, I’m curious why bowling, golf and even dumb cowboys can figure this out but this is a sore subject for shooting sports. I’ve always viewed competitive shooting as a literal arms race that rewards the guys with the most money, not always the most skill and many events don’t suit the casual hunter or gun owner. Maybe I am just out of the loop as a civilian but it seems there is not much outreach to the casual gun owner

 

[Lowlight]

Cause this started as the Buddy System and each clique wants to make sure their buddy walks away with the best prizes

it hasn't changed because they let the inmates run the asylum, when those competing are making the rules, the rules support those making them.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Why has a handicap system not evolved in competitive shooting?

Hell no.
Local trap/skeet range does this, when a guy whose ranked at 25/25 birds goes up against a 10/25 guy the 10 bird guy only has to break 11 birds to beat the guy who just broke all 25. Old fudds and women loved this handicap system, people who praticed didn't care for it. Guess who still shoots at that range?

 

[HayStax]

Hell no.
Local trap/skeet range does this, when a guy whose ranked at 25/25 birds goes up against a 10/25 guy the 10 bird guy only has to break 11 birds to beat the guy who just broke all 25. Old fudds and women loved this handicap system, people who praticed didn't care for it. Guess who still shoots at that range?

I see that, in our sport that scenario doesn’t happen. Everyone competes against those in their own level. If not enough people show up we do a draw pot or round robin and the best ropers (high number) are paired with novice (low number) to average out. Again this is a team sport so there is the opportunity to pair individuals to reach a degree of parity.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I see that, in our sport that scenario doesn’t happen. Everyone competes against those in their own level. If not enough people show up we do a draw pot or round robin and the best ropers (high number) are paired with novice (low number) to average out. Again this is a team sport so there is the opportunity to pair individuals to reach a degree of parity.

That makes more sense than my envisioned handicap scenario. USPSA has shooters split up by class, you could be the top dog C-class winner and still only place 50th out of 60. It seems to make new guys feel better, anybody that practices doesn't care what happens from A-class down.

 

[Sierra770]

I don't believe we need a handicap system but the way things are currently being done doesn't seem sustainable. I like the prize table crawl but I realize that it may not be the best for the future of the sport.

I like the coupon codes and certificates. It has me buying things from manufacturers that I normally wouldn't consider. At 50-60% off, I am willing to gamble on a lesser known brand.

 

[HayStax]

That makes more sense than my envisioned handicap scenario. USPSA has shooters split up by class, you could be the top dog C-class winner and still only place 50th out of 60. It seems to make new guys feel better, anybody that practices doesn't care what happens from A-class down.

Are the prizes split accordingly by class? Or just by total ranking? Ropings pay same percentage to novice as they do pros. Bigger pot = bigger payout. Sponsor typically add to pot in each division, often novice pots are bigger due to more entries. Pros typically get individual sponsorship deals.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Local matches are typically just for bragging rights, I don't follow USPSA close enough to know how they do it at area or national matches.

 

[Forward543]

What about payout for divisions based on finish:
Top 25%
Next 25%
Bottom 50%
Then you would struggle to make it political and you really would not know where you were. The guys wanting reward for their hardwork and practice get it. And run the codes as lowlight suggested, or raffle or whatever distribution. This way you also help give incentive to help shooters who arent as good.

 

[Mudlol]

I can’t think of any other sport or competition where there is a prize table.

Back when I use to race mountain bikes. You went to an event to have fun with some buddies and to challenge yourself. There was no prizes. All you got was a T-shirt and number plate.

I believe this is the start of the prize table slowly disappearing and it makes me sad.

 

[kRcu]

Winning a prize has never been a motivator for me to participate in a hobby.

Big fucking LOL to those that aren’t willing to participate in their hobby if there isn’t a payout. Get sponsored if free stuff is all you want from the sport.

My reaction to reading half of the “I deserve stuff posts...”

 

[morganlamprecht]

I can’t think of any other sport or competition where there is a prize table.

Back when I use to race mountain bikes. You went to an event to have fun with some buddies and to challenge yourself. There was no prizes. All you got was a T-shirt and number plate.

I believe this is the start of the prize table slowly disappearing and it makes me sad.

how much does it cost to enter a mountain bike race? honest question, i have no clue

ive competed in a bunch of different sports over the years from bball, golf, bjj, etc with no real prizes...none of them have $300/person entry fees, and the ones that do offered some kind of cash payback to top performers

just from talking to various shooters the general sound i hear is similar to this...

if a shooter is spending $275 (match fee) + $50 (range day) and traveling for a day or 2, they expect big things...prize tables, good food, amenities, etc, because thats what theyre used to now...they dont want to pay $300+ to go rough it with a half assed match

if a shooter is spending $50-100....they dont much care as long as the shooting is fun

 

[Sierra770]

I can appreciate the references to other sports, but the current situation is that prizes and prize tables are the norm in PRS. I don't see the prize table or a variation thereof disappearing from the PRS. I think there is some reform that needs to take place but eliminating the prize table or some prize incentive would likely be detrimental to the series.

 

[kRcu]

Frank,

If someone pays to come to the MHSA Detatchment training, what does one win for being the best student?


Asking for a friend......

 

[nfoley]

Winning a prize has never been a motivator for me to participate in a hobby.

Big fucking LOL to those that aren’t willing to participate in their hobby if there isn’t a payout. Get sponsored if free stuff is all you want from the sport.

My reaction to reading half of the “I deserve stuff posts...”

Not sure if this post was directed at me - but I definitely would continue in this sport if there were no prizes. I actively shoot as many local matches as I can and love them. I just wouldn't do as many of the bigger matches ($1000+ with travel, hotel, etc). Would probably do 1-2 per year.

I actually don't see anyone here saying they do this for free stuff. Can't say I have ever shot with someone with that attitude.

 

[Diver160651]

how much does it cost to enter a mountain bike race? honest question, i have no clue

Some events the runner or cyclist needs to raise 2k to participate, no prizes.
Something simple like the Death Ride is $153 min all you get is aid stations.. vip is $253, no prize
Most MTB races like the Texas 100 are over $100.. prizes are mainly symbolic

In cycling (long time ago), First place netted me cheap ass things, like tires, once a 6pk of some weird European soda.. This was only up to cat3 so it was not "professional" maybe thats the rub.. But a pro cyclist doesn't usually have a job

 

[morganlamprecht]

Some events the runner or cyclist needs to raise 2k to participate, no prizes.
Something simple like the Death Ride is $153 min all you get is aid stations.. vip is $253, no prize
Most MTB races like the Texas 100 are over $100.. prizes are mainly symbolic

In cycling (long time ago), First place netted me cheap ass things, like tires, once a 6pk of some weird European soda.. This was only up to cat3 so it was not "professional" maybe thats the rub.. But a pro cyclist doesn't usually have a job

good info...guess i wont ever consider cycling if i get bored lol

 

[kRcu]

Not sure if this post was directed at me - but I definitely would continue in this sport if there were no prizes. I actively shoot as many local matches as I can and love them. I just wouldn't do as many of the bigger matches ($1000+ with travel, hotel, etc). Would probably do 1-2 per year.

I actually don't see anyone here saying they do this for free stuff. Can't say I have ever shot with someone with that attitude.

Not directed at you at all. It’s just a bit shocking to see how much stock people apparently place in getting prizes for their participation.

 

[Fig]

Some events the runner or cyclist needs to raise 2k to participate, no prizes.
Something simple like the Death Ride is $153 min all you get is aid stations.. vip is $253, no prize
Most MTB races like the Texas 100 are over $100.. prizes are mainly symbolic

In cycling (long time ago), First place netted me cheap ass things, like tires, once a 6pk of some weird European soda.. This was only up to cat3 so it was not "professional" maybe thats the rub.. But a pro cyclist doesn't usually have a job

It wasn’t Spin Drift soda, was it?

 

[Mudlol]

I think people are missing the point. Just because you pay a $200 match fee and traveled doesn’t you are entitled to a prize.

 

[nfoley]

I think the issue for a lot of guys is the time and cost of the big matches. It is tough to get time off for me, and the cost of the whole deal isn't small. If you go and win a barrel (which you're going to be needing anyway) that sure helps.
I never go with expectation of winning a good prize, but sure makes it rewarding if I do.

One other thing about the sponsors. I know from the guys I shoot with we make a big effort to support them. Recently Huber started frequently supporting matches. I won a certificate, and ended up buying 3 more. I let everyone I shoot with know how much I like BOTH their quality and their support of what we do. And I am not alone in doing that. We talk a lot at local matches about supporting the sponsors.

In the end for me (and most of the guys I shoot with) we shoot cause we love every aspect of this long range competition shooting - we like the rifles/gear, the challenges, the competition, the comradery, the outdoors. Most of the bitching I see and do is our frustration with not hitting more targets lol. I read TheGerman's post above and thought I must be shooting different matches cause I can't remember hearing bitching about the prize table at the matches I have shot.

 

[Fig]

 

[morganlamprecht]

I think people are missing the point. Just because you pay a $200 match fee and traveled doesn’t you are entitled to a prize.

majority of shooters are paying $300+travel to shoot and see where they rank against the best shooters

if the best shooters start not showing up, im not paying $300+travel to shoot against competition i could see in a local club match with a $50 match fee and a 45 minute drive...the prize table/rankings/big show is to draw shooters...the good ones

 

[Lowlight]

Frank,

If someone pays to come to the MHSA Detatchment training, what does one win for being the best student?


Asking for a friend......

I gave out hats when you won a shoot off ... they paid $1000 to attend.

I am not advocating a removal of 100% of the prize table, I am advocating the reduction of it where it is front loaded. share the wealth.

Last year after my infamous "Letter" a big name PRS Shooter and well respected older gentleman in the PRS wrote a response to me on FB. He attended my 2014 SHC where I had 7 Rifles on the prize table. He publicly chastised me for the "Nerve" to a rifle to the 58th Place Shooter. What he failed to mention was, that shooter was the Top 308 (Before the Tactical / Production class existed) and we gave the Top 308 shooter a 6.5CM rifle. We had over 140 shooters and I was the first to give away a rifle to a Woman. (we had 5 shooting the match) That is the attitude, what have you done for me lately.

Last year at the SH TC I gave $5000 of my money back to the top shooters, 1st place team got $2000, then I divided the rest up, even the kids got $500.

we can easily take a limited number of prizes and raffle them, pick specific places to reward, etc, the point is to spread the love and not top load the table. With a 100 shooters the last place guys, Spots 80 to 100 might get something good, odds are they get a databook or something left over. The front is always the same people and granted they practice and shooter more, but it's feeding into the same exact people over and over who then just stell the stuff because they are sponsored.

When Jacob caused drama by letting the Range Officers hit the table after 10th place, the 51st place shooter still got a certificate for a complete suppressor buy, like a $1500 value and that promoted the group, to write the "Letter" to Rifles Only saying "how dare he do what he did and take prizes from the shooters to give to the Range Officers" that is what we are trying to fix.

No match I know advertises that you are entitled to the prizes, we do supply food, shirts, and a good safe venue, the prize tables are icing on the cake. The fact people feel entitled to something is a bit strange, especially when their justification for it is to fund their next shoot. Silly I say. I would rather have 75 quality people than an extra 50 assholes who are there for themselves and what they take away.

How is it, the sponsored guys are the hungriest for prizes? Because their "sponsors" are barely footing the bill. So you have guys who are sponsored and want the better prizes on top of that ... a bit selfish if you ask me. If a sponsor is getting hit up by 1000 shooters, 100 matches, what do you think is gonna be left, and how much ROI do you think is baked in?

it's not sustainable and I have yet to see anyone else step up to solve it.

 

[kRcu]

Frank,

I’ll be satisfied with the training even if I can’t win a hat, lol.

 

[Diver160651]

It wasn’t Spin Drift soda, was it?

LOL I was young - but there was an orange soda that was in glass bottles that look kinda like and orange.. It was not all that good..

Now the SD soda is in my frig.. but I paid an arm and a leg for that one.. After drinking it I am missing more and more right.. I might have to switch flavors.

 

[noisewaterphd]

So, I mentioned this on my podcast, and I have been hesitant to mention it out loud until it was 100% in place. Since that podcast mention, I have received at least a 1/2 dozen calls and messages about my solution as I did not spell it out.

The real test of whether this sport is about is about the group or the individual, will be the reaction.

So, how do we solve this idea of Prize Table Bias, and by bias, I mean balancing the reward for attending a precision rifle match? Many feel it is front-loaded, and other feel they attend more matches or they belong to Series so they deserve something a casual attendee does not. Their investment in the Series is higher is how they rationale it.

I will reward the Top 3 shooters in an event, and then everyone after that will get a series of discount codes.

If the sponsors of an event enable a series of discount codes for the matches they sponsor both sides win. The sponsor is not out of pocket for all the matches that request prizes or sponsors and ALL THE SHOOTER WIN.

If a sponsor gives a match an Item, that Item can be used, or sold, in some cases, it might it used but never seen again. Think of the case a shooter sponsors by Vortex who pulls a Nightforce off a prize table. He will not attend the next match with an NF because he is sponsored by Vortex. He probably took the NF off the table because it's expensive. While he may keep it, he may also want to sell it to fund his hobby. Prizes should not really be there to fund your hobby, that is not the purpose and was never the intent. Companies actually frown on seeing their donation posted for sale, it gets mentioned a ton. Win it on Sunday and Sell it online Monday is supported by no company.

Moving to discount codes across the majority of the events will streamline the process on so many levels. Print the codes out and hand them to every shooter after the match, now you are not waiting for Jersey Johnny to pick his prize, that part if finished. You can leave much sooner, reward the Top 3 of each segment and you are done. The Prize table crawl is gone, you're home an hour earlier.

The discount codes support the sponsors, they only work if you buy from them. They can afford to sponsor more events, minus the $50,000 buy in to sponsor a Series Season. It saves the shooter a lot of money and makes the sponsors some money in return.

Of course, the more generous the discount, the more popular the sponsor will be, but in many cases, it still won't hurt their bottom line.

Request a Specialized Discount Code and now you can track sales and reach. You have a metric to work with.

4th Place gets the same level of respect as 104th place. 4th and 104th Place takeaway the same amount of opportunity for attending your match.

Less money for shipping, less coordination for the Match Director, in total it's less work for everybody, it's faster, with a bigger return on investment.

They can share the codes socially, they can be time-limited, X Code from Sponsor A works for 3 months after the match, works for 6 months after the match, etc. If they get shared online it's a win, win, more business, and greater opportunity. Think about the Midway Discount Codes, we used to have threads just about the most recent code. More codes mean keeping both business and shooting moving forward.

You can supplement the table with certain products, and they will mean more. If there are only 10 prizes, that gives those more value. But everyone loves a discount code.

So, that is my solution .... feel free to discuss.

My one and only concern with this type of system is when certain manufacturers are the sponsor. The discount code is only good directly from the manufacturer, and it is always a percentage off of MSRP making it cost the same or more than street price. The shooter loses, the small shops lose, and the only one to win is the manufacturer. They get free advertising and probably get more money for the item you purchase than they would get from a dealer.

I'm not saying that this will happen, or that they all do this, just that it happens. A lot.

Please take that into consideration.

I'm still a fan of trophies for winners and raffle the prize table. Or no prize table. And I say this as a paying member of multiple series and as an attendee of many expensive national matches per year.

 

[Lowlight]

Never mentioned no trophies or no raffles, no special cases.

There are always unique situations, a company may have a new product they want in someone's hand

This is the problem the majority of you are small thinkers and small-minded, and can't understand how this works

You cant see past your nose and can't figure out how to look at the big picture.

This is, "FRANK SAID X, and there is no rest of the alphabet, of course, there is more and there are options and there are exceptions.

Now you know exactly why it never changed and is getting worse, you're all too busy thinking it's set in stone and you won't walk away with something.

Well go back doing the same way see how long it lasts, nobody wants to engage their brain and nobody understands I am not talking in absolutes, but only to ease the system and eliminate as much of BIAS as possible

See I used the word BIAS for a reason, look it up as English is clearly tough, I recommend Google as a translator

 

[sinister]

Frank, I think the reason you're having so much angst is because you really care about bringing and keeping new blood coming into the matches.

In football you have college and the pros. In the pros the winner and second get Super Bowl rings. There is no feeder system for PRS so they expect all or nothing for payout. The pool's so small that an intro guy is happy to participate and learn while the sponsored guy wants (maybe even expects) all the expensive prizes off the table.

The average cop from a mid-size department or a slotted E5 (or below) sniper isn't coming to your matches. If they are I don't imagine they're expecting to sweep the prize table.

It's a sport, and the guy shelling out money expects something in return -- because it's a game and sponsors want to show their stuff is winning they're willing to give you swag to hand out.

 

[reich10]

Never mentioned no trophies or no raffles, no special cases.

There are always unique situations, a company may have a new product they want in someone's hand

This is the problem the majority of you are small thinkers and small-minded, and can't understand how this works

You cant see past your nose and can't figure out how to look at the big picture.

Haha Really Lowlight? I know you are the HMFIC of this shit but C'MON MAN!

Let's have civil discussion and not resort to pissed off name calling tactics. Especially pointed at the people who patronize YOUR forum.

 

[Sheldon N]

IMO not really a problem that needs solving.

Everyone who contributed to a prize table is a company looking to sell product. They put stuff out for visibility, to get stuff into the hands of the top shooters, whatever they think will drive sales. If it works and it drives sales, then they will keep doing it. If it doesn't work, they won't give product. This isn't a nonprofit.

If shooters whine because the status quo got changed or they didn't get a prize or whatever, oh well. That's human nature, but no one needs to feel bad for them. The prize system isn't there for the shooter, it's there to sell gear. The people who pick stuff off the prize table would do well to remember to focus their energy on supporting the companies that made the prize table possible. It needs to be a symbiotic relationship.

FWIW I think coupons and discount codes are generally not very attractive as a prize to anyone in the upper end of the field. Most of them already have the gear they need, and a discount code on something they weren't planning to buy isn't really a "prize". I got a 20% off coupon at my last match, they gave them out to everyone. I ended up tossing it because I didn't need it. I also won a very nice certificate for free product, which I ended up selling because I couldn't use the cert without spending thousands of dollars more that i didn't have. Despite the fact that I didn't use the cert, I'm going to be a vocal supporter of that company in the future because of their support of the sport.

But again, coupon codes, or certs, or hard products on the prize table or whether prizes get used by the winners or resold on the secondary market is not my call to make. That's for the marketing departments of the sponsoring companies to decide what to do that produces the best ROI. I'm going to keep shooting either way.

 

[djarecke]

Well said, Sheldon. If the sponsors find that presenting their product isn't worth their while, they will pull their offerings for future events. I DO remember who sponsors what when I'm in need of gear, so I don't think their offerings is money wasted. I think that coupon codes are less effective than the people being able to actually see and feel the product that the sponsor is presenting at the prize table.

I also don't think that the majority of shooters here are "small minded" and "small thinkers". To the contrary. I've been teamed up with Force Recon, Green Beret A Teams, SEALs, 8541's, Rangers and LEO Team snipers as well as some of the biggest corporate names in PRS. These guys are as good as it gets in our community, and most of them don't give a rat's ass about the prize table or what type of communist agenda that comes along that guarantees everyone a prize. Most of us just want to shoot, and will train our asses of to win the competition, not some prize that is on a table. I've also seen the top 5 guys give their prizes away to lower-ranking shooters because they are great people and care to see the sport progress. The prize table drama is over-stated in perpetuity for what purpose I have no idea.

Despite what you've heard, most of these guys are great people and will help you shoot better if you talk to them at a competition even if they are wearing a jersey. They just like to shoot targets in the face and they love the sport.