PRS Talk My Solution to Prize Table Bias

[Danrobberg]

I’m not in favor of participation trophies. Everyone gets the same t shirt and same meal provided and that’s where the equality should end. To be honest I’m happy just to have that. If you want a good prize you earn it by beating the other guy. If a sponsored shooter wins the top prize that’s because he earned it. What he does with it is not my business. Thinking everyone should get the same prize is the definition of entitlement. If the sponsors are losing money they will not provide prizes. I’ll still shoot anyway. My goal is to get enough points to try to make the finale, if I get a prize that’s just icing on the cake. I don’t blame the guys who want something to show for their time and money, it’s nice to be rewarded and get a little return on your investment, but sending a letter like they did is a douche move. I also think the ro’s should absolutely be included in the prizes. With out them the match doesn’t happen. They put in long days staring through glass and keeping score and they absolutely should get something for that. At the core match prime ammunition gave all the ro’s gift certificates and that was absolutely awesome. They even gave one ro an AI chassis. I do enjoy the prize table and last match I got an apa fat bastard brake which I was going to buy to try out anyway so that was awesome. I left more valuable things on the table but I wanted the brake so I was hoppy to have it. That being said I would still shoot the matches if there was no prize table. I enjoy seeing some friends I’ve met along the way and I enjoy the travel to new places I wouldn’t have gone to if not for a match there.

 

[HighCountryPrecision]

Interesting topic. As a match director the prize table is my least favorite part of putting on a match. I know I need it and it needs to be good so shooters show up. I put all of my time and energy into making a killer match because I love the sport. The people who think that the match director makes money doing this are crazy, the logistics of moving 100+ people is expensive and I feed em and give them a tshirt. 250.00 is a drop in the bucket to shoot a quality match.

 

[man32ahan]

@Lowlight I think flighting the field after a match would be a good idea. For example, I play in a lot of golf scrambles over the summer. A lot of times these scrambles have different flight winners based on scores.

Example: A Flight (Top 33% scores) B Flight (Middle 33% scores) C Flight (Bottom 33% scores).
My team is not the best, but were not the worst. With the flight system, we generally end up near the top of the B flight or bottom of the A flight.
Generally, cash prizes are paid for the top 1-2places in each flight after the scores are turned in after the round.

Therefore, its fairly hard to sandbag/know where you are going to place because everybody is out participating at the same time.

From a PRS standpoint, I believe this could work. MD compiles scores at the end of match. Say there were 60 shooters then top 20 scores would be A flight, next 20 B flight, last 20 C flight. Top 3 in each flight get cash award + trip to prize table. The A flight cash awards could be higher than B flights and C Flight cash awards could be lower than A and B flights.

Let A,B, and C flight winners go to prize table in order. Then 2nd place in each flight go, then 3rd place in each flight go. That would be nine people total to prize table.

After that, maybe a raffle type system for all remaining participants that stuck around.

The reason I like this idea is it gives a lower score guy ( a guy that knows he's not going to be anywhere near high score a chance to win/motivation to shoot well). A guy that regularly finishes near midpack of a match may place/possibly win the B flight depending on how he shoots or may be bumped into the bottom of A flight class.
A person that scores near the bottom (new guy/kids/etc.) on a regular basis has hope/motivation to go out and compete in hopes of placing at the top of the C flight.

This flighting system works in golf. There are some superstar teams that show up to scrambles that will undoubtedly win the whole thing (A flight), but your average joe team still has incentive to attempt to play to the best of their abilities in hopes of maybe winning a lower flight such as a B or C flight. Then, if you have some newcomers or a team that likes to play golf, but not very good at, they may still win an award at the end of the day hence the C/lowest flight.

Golf scrambles usually have huge turnouts and seem to be growing as of late so it may be a route to consider for PRS matches. They could still keep the prize table, but you got lower flight winners taking some of the bigger prizes instead of the same ten or so sponsored guys getting all the top prizes every match.

I hope this makes sense and I would be willing to elaborate further if need be.

Per my example of a 60 shooter field flighted three times =
A flight winners would be top overall 1st,2nd, and 3rd place finishers.
B flight winners would be overall 21st ,22nd, and 23rd finishers.
C flight winners would be overall 41st, 42nd and 43rd finishers.

Obviously, MD's could flight the field as many times as they want. A,B,C,D,E,.....,etc. They could also pay out/give awards to more places in each flight if they wished to do so, but I think 1st, 2nd, and 3rd is the norm for most sporting events.

This would also not mess with PRS scoring. Even though you may have won the C flight for example, you still placed 41st out of 60 overall and your total score is still based off of the 1st place shooter's score.

 

[Lowlight]

Well sounds like you guys have it all figured out,

Since when does a Green Beret deal with the competition side of things, talk to the sponsors who complain about the lack of return on investment, more typical liberal style justifications to change the story to some false equivalency in order to keep lining their own pockets, pretty funny. I was a Marine Sniper go figure, I trained a lot of those guys for years and years and did not just spend a weekend with one watching them from the corner of your eye, I interacted far beyond that, so what do I know.

If the prize table drama was overstated why bother to write to a Match Director with a fake account so it cannot be traced in order to complain about a match directors' handling of his prize table ? If it was fake the sponsors would not be speaking up, or in other cases turning it down. It's real money with a real impact in a down market for many.

When many shooters openly state, "they deserve more and are entitled to the better prizes" why because they shoot more than the next guy.

I get it you want cover because you want the same access the guy before you got, why change it now, your turn has not come.

 

[Lowlight]

Also

A large part of the sponsors who jumped ship to the NRL were disgruntled at how they were represented. The gave as much as the next guy and were nowhere to be found in the marketing, they no return on investment. They felt underrepresented and that help build the NRL, there were just as many sponsors who left as shooters. facts suck.

Square that circle if there is nothing wrong, look how the NRL promotes vs the PRS, there is clearly two competing schools of thought that had nothing to do with me.

I am still waiting for the PRS apologist to acknowledge why the NRL was created when everyone was a happy PRS member and I am just talking out my ass.

 

[noisewaterphd]

Never mentioned no trophies or no raffles, no special cases.

There are always unique situations, a company may have a new product they want in someone's hand

This is the problem the majority of you are small thinkers and small-minded, and can't understand how this works

You cant see past your nose and can't figure out how to look at the big picture.

This is, "FRANK SAID X, and there is no rest of the alphabet, of course, there is more and there are options and there are exceptions.

Now you know exactly why it never changed and is getting worse, you're all too busy thinking it's set in stone and you won't walk away with something.

Well go back doing the same way see how long it lasts, nobody wants to engage their brain and nobody understands I am not talking in absolutes, but only to ease the system and eliminate as much of BIAS as possible

See I used the word BIAS for a reason, look it up as English is clearly tough, I recommend Google as a translator

I think you've somehow put a bunch of words into my mouth. My point was simply to watch out for sponsors abusing the certificate or discount code sponsorships. It pisses me off more as a sponsor than a shooter. It happened to us a lot at a regional matches we sponsored all season long last year. We would donate an item or two up to $250 for every match, and then some jack ass that sent out a bunch of certificates that cut out the dealer and saved the shooter zero dollars over street price gets more mention and eyes on their "donation" than mine.

I think the discount codes can work, but you're going to have to police it for both the shooters and sponsors sake.

Take some time to actually read what I wrote. Don't just jump on me like I'm some whiny ass shooter, or as if I am the one that can't see past my own nose.

 

[Lowlight]

I think you've somehow put a bunch of words into my mouth. My point was simply to watch out for sponsors abusing the certificate or discount code sponsorships. It pisses me off more as a sponsor than a shooter. It happened to us a lot at a regional matches we sponsored all season long last year. We would donate an item or two up to $250 for every match, and then some jack ass that sent out a bunch of certificates that cut out the dealer and saved the shooter zero dollars over street price gets more mention and eyes on their "donation" than mine.

I think the discount codes can work, but you're going to have to police it for both the shooters and sponsors sake.

Take some time to actually read what I wrote. Don't just jump on me like I'm some whiny ass shooter, or as if I am the one that can't see past my own nose.

How many thank you notes did you get post-match or in total ... from the shooters.

What was your Return on Investment big picture for a season of sponsorship?

If you want to talk as a sponsor, tell us the entire story. You gave, it comes out of your pocket, what was the response after the fact.

Clearly, you felt bit by the situation, where were all the super great shooters stepping up to support your efforts?

 

[noisewaterphd]

How many thank you notes did you get post-match or in total ... from the shooters.

What was your Return on Investment big picture for a season of sponsorship?

If you want to talk as a sponsor, tell us the entire story. You gave, it comes out of your pocket, what was the response after the fact.

Clearly, you felt bit by the situation, where were all the super great shooters stepping up to support your efforts?

We did actually get some phone calls and some guys in the shop with thank you's. Not as many as I would've hoped, but it does feel good. So anyone reading this take note. Even a phone call saying "hey thanks for supporting what we do" can make a huge difference in whether a sponsor continues to put something on the table or not.

Actual ROI has been harder to figure out. I do know some of the sales that resulted directly from the sponsorship, but not all. I suspect for last season we were probably in the black on the whole sponsorship thing.

 

[Lowlight]

And yet the Holier than Thou Shooters in here will say I am full of shit ...

They want the best prizes, they talk about their sacrifice shooting these matches, the entry fee, the travel, the prizes, how awesome they are loaning out a rear bag to a new shooter, but can't be bothered to send a thank you note to all the sponsors, it' s only about them. When they get something Gucci they are happy to share it, but when they don't get that Gucci Bag, they walk away.

But there is no problem,

Also, I fail to understand how it's a participation trophy if the Top Shooters are still being rewarded, so what is the cutoff, Top 3, Top 5, Top 10, Top 25 ? At what point are you not rewarding success?

Jacob rewarded the Top 10 before calling up the ROs, did shooter number #11 complain, if Shooter #51 got a full suppressor certificate, was it shooter number #52 that felt cheated ?

If the Top 5 is being rewarded for their success, does that have to be Top 25, Top 50, at what point do we call it good in a match with a 125 shooters?

 

[noisewaterphd]

Determining ROI is one big reason that I am a fan of the discount code idea. It gives us some options for being able to track sales related to the sponsorship.

You are not wrong about the type of shooter you speak of.

 

[MilDot1960]

And yet the Holier than Thou Shooters in here will say I am full of shit ...

They want the best prizes, they talk about their sacrifice shooting these matches, the entry fee, the travel, the prizes, how awesome they are loaning out a rear bag to a new shooter, but can't be bothered to send a thank you note to all the sponsors, it' s only about them. When they get something Gucci they are happy to share it, but when they don't get that Gucci Bag, they walk away.

But there is no problem,

Also, I fail to understand how it's a participation trophy if the Top Shooters are still being rewarded, so what is the cutoff, Top 3, Top 5, Top 10, Top 25 ? At what point are you not rewarding success?

Jacob rewarded the Top 10 before calling up the ROs, did shooter number #11 complain, if Shooter #51 got a full suppressor certificate, was it shooter number #52 that felt cheated ?

If the Top 5 is being rewarded for their success, does that have to be Top 25, Top 50, at what point do we call it good in a match with a 125 shooters?

I can't believe people get so butt hurt about it all, Wheres the sportsmanship and the camaraderie of the sport ? Whether someone spends 10k on a rifle or spends money on travelling to these matches that is their person choice no one made them do it it is all a matter of "Wanted To" and they are all responsible for their own actions,

Frank, run it as you see fit and those who are bitching ought to remember that "They" are Guests at these events, They are not Movie stars turning up at the Oscars, They are not important and the Event will carry on without them and it will be just as successful even if they don't turn up. Which will be a bonus to those less skilled and it will give them a chance at winning something to encourage them further.

Rant Over.

Out.

 

[Lowlight]

At the end of the day, very few of the problem shooters will even come to a SH event anymore

They think they are hurting me by saying stuff like "Don't feed the troll" or whatever names they decide to use, I did like Horrible Hobbit, that was classic, again they act like I don't hear it.

I will focus on new shooter friendly events, more juniors, where I give them the majority of the prizes. I will continue to fill their pockets more than established guys. Cash or big stuff to the top 3 and then move on. If you didn't top 3, you don't stand on the podium, you're complaints are invalid.

Plus my training is going into overdrive lately, I will just do the one event a year vs multiple events. It's actually a lot easier, and the guys want to be there and appreciate it more. Heck MHSA is already asking me to add more classes in and I just finished their first one, and we're sold out until Aug.

For me the local matches are fun, no drama, no prizes beyond the minor donations. If you go back to any match I have shot in the last 5+ years or more I never hit the prize table anyway. Even my return PRS Match that time where I came in 11th, when they called my name I just raised my hand and said thanks. I am hitting a few bigger matches, but I am being choosy.

 

[noisewaterphd]

I will focus on new shooter friendly events, more juniors, where I give them the majority of the prizes. I will continue to fill their pockets more than established guys.

Amen. We have gone big with juniors this year as well. Everybody should be.

 

[MilDot1960]

Cool, that's the Spirit, more youngsters and novices alike, and encourage them to achieve great things, the future of the sport is on us and how "we" all promote the sport/hobby and those beginners are the future.

 

[fdkay]

I like the idea of the discount code. I would NEVER place high enough to get a walk along the prize table. My equipment is entry level and I would be very likely to take advantage of a discount code, as I don't have the funds to buy top tier stuff, but maybe, with the help of sponsors, I could. Why would I spend 165+ for a match, knowing that I won't be competitive and knowing the sponsored guys, with all the HSLD equipment will finish far ahead of me and get all of the goodies.
Yes, I know it is the indian and not the arrow, but sponsored or professional shooters shoot more in a month than I do all year AND likely have access to ranges that allow them to sharpen their skills. I can't afford to spend that kind of scratch just to burn some ammo and watch some guy in a tight fitting shirt that looks like a NASCAR billboard scoop up stuff from that table that they have no intention of using or that they don't need.

 

[MilDot1960]

I like the idea of the discount code. I would NEVER place high enough to get a walk along the prize table. My equipment is entry level and I would be very likely to take advantage of a discount code, as I don't have the funds to buy top tier stuff, but maybe, with the help of sponsors, I could. Why would I spend 165+ for a match, knowing that I won't be competitive and knowing the sponsored guys, with all the HSLD equipment will finish far ahead of me and get all of the goodies.
Yes, I know it is the indian and not the arrow, but sponsored or professional shooters shoot more in a month than I do all year AND likely have access to ranges that allow them to sharpen their skills. I can't afford to spend that kind of scratch just to burn some ammo and watch some guy in a tight fitting shirt that looks like a NASCAR billboard scoop up stuff from that table that they have no intention of using or that they don't need.

Don't worry about what your gear cost, I went up against guys with 10k rifle and mine cost me about 450 and it was about 15 years old, I shot the crap out of those targets and walked away with the medals, Don't sell ya self short.

These comps are made so folks like you get to shoot, and if any of those so called top shooters had any stones they would be there with you helping to get you to the next level, I see guys with top end gear and think "So What" and just go for it. Never worry about them it's your shots that count, Just enjoy ya self and remember what you did in the past when you made that one perfect shot and do it every time you squeeze the trigger and your scores will go through the roof, Yeah

 

[AbbyKatt]

To take a slight detour...what about the ROs and staff? The matches can't happen without people willing to give up their opportunity to shoot and work to give the shooters a great experience. I'm new to precision rifle, but I have lots of experience ROing USPSA and 3-Gun. The staff usually gets the opportunity to shoot the match, for free, the days before the main match. If the staff shoots the early match, their scores combine with the main match and they walk the prize table according to whatever system the Match Director sets. (Personally...I like the idea of awards/trophies for the top in each division and random draw for the rest.) The flight system mentioned about is alive and working in USPSA.

Some matches do give spiff to the staff...discount codes, separate prize table, out right pay. At a minimum, what I would like to see is simply the covering of expenses...meals, lodging...perhaps a travel allowance if the match is national/regional and requires a lot of staff and they are coming from great distances.

 

[JC Steel]

Some really good ideas and discussion here.

I personally am a Shooter, a sponsor, and a national level match director. So I am literally one of only a handful of people that fall under all three categories.

Couple questions just to see people’s thoughts.

1-is precision Rifle a hobby or a sport? Do we as a community want to drive it to become a nationally recognized sport where professionals compete?

I think this topic is really talking about two different types of shooters. Hoobyists and more dedicated/pro shooters.

Like golf. Are you a weekend warrior? Maybe golf 4 or 5 times a year?
Or are you taking it to the next level? Practicing everyday, perfecting your craft?

There are 100 times more amateur golfers than pros. And that’s ok.


Let’s compare to other sports and how they do it. How are they thriving??



2-why not try and move to cash payback for matches?
For my prs match this last fall I gave away $5000 for first, $2000 for second, $1000 for third, $500 for fourth and $250 for 5th. In total that is $8750. I then gave the range officers all a pick from the $25k in goods I had. Really right stuff tripods, cases of ammo, chassis and on and on. And the give away top young gun trophies and prizes, top female Shooter awards etc etc

shooters want cash. Not items, not Rifles, not scopes, etc.

Imagine tiger woods wins the masters golf tourney and the tournament director gives him a putter and a pat on the back. Ha! Money motivates athletes. Motivates them to excel, motivates them to be the absolute best they can be.

Now for amateur golf tournament the payouts are smaller. But they are still there.

Only the top X amount win money. If you didn’t win, practice more. I’ve played in high level golf tournaments, i paid my $250 entry fee, played golf all weekend, eat food all weekend, sucked it up, left with a wooden golf tee.

I really Take care of youthank shooters in a big way. I personally give them a lot of stuff whether it’s match winnings that I happen to win or just product that I have to get them going. I think it’s very very important to get the next generation excited about the sport.


But to all you grown men, if you want something bad enough you’ll work to get it. So you don’t shoot very well (yet) well then work on it. You may not be as naturally talented to some people but that’s OK hard work can overcome that stuff.

I also find it funny that the same people that want this as a hobby and tell me or others they don’t care about the price table are the same people that would like the prize table to be spread out and share the wealth. Wait a minute!! Cant have it both ways. it’s ironic to me that they can say both things in the same sentence. If you don’t care about the prize table then by golly leave the prizes to the people that do care.

It’s crazy in one sentence people say they Don’t care about the prize table and the very next moment they’re going up and picking something off the prize table they can take home with them.

There are very few people that actually hold to that word. I personally saw Frank Galli get seven place at K and M precision rifle championship a few years back. where the prize table was absolutely stacked. he could’ve easily walked away with a high-end scope or a chassis. he stood up and raised his hand and sat back down. I got 17 place, I was happy as could be to go walk the prize table. does that mean that I’m greedy. I certainly don’t think so. It was in a competition and there are awards in competitions. We are competing for a reason. It’s a game. There are winners and losers. I happened to get beat by 16 talented shooters that day. Their reward is higher than mine.

 

[MilDot1960]

Very good points JC, personally I would be happy if I was given a prize that is fitting for my achievements but I would rather that was decided for me, I was happy to earn my medals and get my name in the paper, Although I shot in competitions the only real competition I had was beating my scores from the week prior, And as long as I saw the improvement each week I was happy,

I think that no matter whether someone is in the top shooters bracket or in the mid lower shooters they all try to be competitive, I don't class shooters in to sportsmen or professional etc, I just see em as either good or average, because they are all good on any given day, I have seen shoots ruined when one well known guy entered and others one time they even went as far as messing with his Ammo so he would fail, having quality shooters there is a good thing because it's a great way for novices to learn and drives them on, I am not a fan of Us and Them type situations and I am never impressed with factory sponsored teams that train 6 days a week and turn up with the best of gear, Those types don't belong in most shoots.

Having professional shooters entering club comps drives off the everyday shooters because they know they don't stand a chance and when the pros leave the regular shooters don't come back for a few months or so and it has a bad effect on the club, I know we use to have different grades of shooters having 3 or 4 levels so all the shooters were competing within their grade which reduced the chance of a novice going up against a AAA shooter,

 

[ra2bach]

Hell no.
Local trap/skeet range does this, when a guy whose ranked at 25/25 birds goes up against a 10/25 guy the 10 bird guy only has to break 11 birds to beat the guy who just broke all 25. Old fudds and women loved this handicap system, people who praticed didn't care for it. Guess who still shoots at that range?

no that's not how a handicap works. or if your local trap range does then they don't understand how it should work...

 

[Diver160651]

I wish more understood how the ski industry uses proform. Very close to Frank’s idea. The discounts are below wholesale, the user has options to use almost any brand. It costs the mfg little, and builds a lot of value and loayatily. We all pimped our gear, it was the weirdest thing in retrospect, but it works, is proven and a mature program.

 

[Bender]

I just want to shoot..... 14’ Hide Cup
Was my first match, I just was an RO. I thought it went off excellent... I missed 15, and I heard it went sideways. I like franks idea to focus on the new shooters. I have zero interest the “tier one, opsec, Tacticool” bromance ass grabbers that feel entitled. They will see themselves out because frank didn’t kiss enough ass. F them. I just wanna shoot.

 

[MilDot1960]

"tier one, opsec, Tacticool” bromance ass grabbers"

Shit that's funny

 

[noisewaterphd]

Some really good ideas and discussion here.

I personally am a Shooter, a sponsor, and a national level match director. So I am literally one of only a handful of people that fall under all three categories.

Couple questions just to see people’s thoughts.

1-is precision Rifle a hobby or a sport? Do we as a community want to drive it to become a nationally recognized sport where professionals compete?

I think this topic is really talking about two different types of shooters. Hoobyists and more dedicated/pro shooters.

Like golf. Are you a weekend warrior? Maybe golf 4 or 5 times a year?
Or are you taking it to the next level? Practicing everyday, perfecting your craft?

There are 100 times more amateur golfers than pros. And that’s ok.


Let’s compare to other sports and how they do it. How are they thriving??



2-why not try and move to cash payback for matches?
For my prs match this last fall I gave away $5000 for first, $2000 for second, $1000 for third, $500 for fourth and $250 for 5th. In total that is $8750. I then gave the range officers all a pick from the $25k in goods I had. Really right stuff tripods, cases of ammo, chassis and on and on. And the give away top young gun trophies and prizes, top female Shooter awards etc etc

shooters want cash. Not items, not Rifles, not scopes, etc.

Imagine tiger woods wins the masters golf tourney and the tournament director gives him a putter and a pat on the back. Ha! Money motivates athletes. Motivates them to excel, motivates them to be the absolute best they can be.

Now for amateur golf tournament the payouts are smaller. But they are still there.

Only the top X amount win money. If you didn’t win, practice more. I’ve played in high level golf tournaments, i paid my $250 entry fee, played golf all weekend, eat food all weekend, sucked it up, left with a wooden golf tee.

I really Take care of youthank shooters in a big way. I personally give them a lot of stuff whether it’s match winnings that I happen to win or just product that I have to get them going. I think it’s very very important to get the next generation excited about the sport.


But to all you grown men, if you want something bad enough you’ll work to get it. So you don’t shoot very well (yet) well then work on it. You may not be as naturally talented to some people but that’s OK hard work can overcome that stuff.

I also find it funny that the same people that want this as a hobby and tell me or others they don’t care about the price table are the same people that would like the prize table to be spread out and share the wealth. Wait a minute!! Cant have it both ways. it’s ironic to me that they can say both things in the same sentence. If you don’t care about the prize table then by golly leave the prizes to the people that do care.

It’s crazy in one sentence people say they Don’t care about the prize table and the very next moment they’re going up and picking something off the prize table they can take home with them.

There are very few people that actually hold to that word. I personally saw Frank Galli get seven place at K and M precision rifle championship a few years back. where the prize table was absolutely stacked. he could’ve easily walked away with a high-end scope or a chassis. he stood up and raised his hand and sat back down. I got 17 place, I was happy as could be to go walk the prize table. does that mean that I’m greedy. I certainly don’t think so. It was in a competition and there are awards in competitions. We are competing for a reason. It’s a game. There are winners and losers. I happened to get beat by 16 talented shooters that day. Their reward is higher than mine.

Yes to many things you have said. Trophies and cash prizes for top spots if we want to be a professional sport. Trying to use the prize table as payouts will never work. Raffle it off and recognize the sponsors. Get good gear from sponsors in the hands of a larger diversity of shooter so that the sponsors can have a better return. Straight up cash and a nice trophy for top spots is better for the guys trying to really go after it anyway.

 

[noisewaterphd]

But right now, if we drive away new shooters through any means, real or perceived, it hurts everyone. Including the guys who want to be pros. If your numbers drop, so do your sponsors. Right now the series is supported mainly by amateur shooters, so you are going to have to cater to them first and pros second otherwise the pros are going to lose the opportunity to be pros. We are in a catch 22.

 

[morganlamprecht]

the only thing i see keeping new shooters away from bigger matches (PRS/NRL) in our area is COST/their perceived skill level

our club matches over the last 2 years have gone from averaging 25 people to 55-60, and last weekend we had 76...of those 76, only about 15-20 actually go and shoot PRS matches...the rest of them dont want to pay the match fee, and are certain they cant compete (i hear this all the time)...if they are finishing mid to bottom of the pack in a club match, why would they spend 4x the match fee to step up to harder competition, thats their reasoning...or at least thats what they say

 

[Diver160651]

Some really good ideas and discussion here.

I personally am a Shooter, a sponsor, and a national level match director. So I am literally one of only a handful of people that fall under all three categories.

Couple questions just to see people’s thoughts.

1-is precision Rifle a hobby or a sport? Do we as a community want to drive it to become a nationally recognized sport where professionals compete?

Jake,

Lots of good points.

If we look at what is happening to the industry, Youtube, Facebook, CNN and other anti-gun social media it fairly easy to see that the political and financial impact to the firearms industry isn't going to be good for growing the sport or even sustaining it, the same dollars just wont be available.

I think unlike golf, there is an entirely large segment of the population against shooting sports. We don't have the number of ranges or near locations to population centers like we have golf courses. With political pressure spinning down some of the economics in the industry, I do not think you'll ever have the pool of professional shooters to make a pro only sport. Unlike Tiger, most shooters have day jobs.

For the sport to survive and grow you need all shooters in the pool. Figuring out a way to award the top like you are doing and maybe Frank is proposing, BUT you need to entice new shooters; more importantly, get more ROI to the sponsors.

(BTW nice work on the 22NRL target package)

Just my thoughts- Jim

 

[Lowlight]

One of the reasons I went to Scout was I wanted to make it more of a "Sport" by including it in a Sports dominated network

A whole lot of you, (talking to Jake and Co, not the hardcore SH Members here) jumped ship and attacked my decision. I heard a metric ton about not wanting to see football links when reading about shooting.

In fact close to 65% ran to Facebook to start their own Groups vs supporting me the site. Even the ones who made a lot of money on here.

You may remember I bought a camera crew from Scout to Las Vegas and demonstrated what I was looking at making those Hero videos that showed the shooters and their equipment plus their sponsors. They (scout) edited the site, built the graphics, etc, you all said fuck that free was better. We like FB and fuck Frank. I think I filmed close to 50 shooters.

The idea was to promote shooting alongside traditional stick and ball sports to correlate the two together.

Sponsors need to make money, they need a return on investment you cannot' keep handing out stuff to every guy with their hand out. Even today the bottom 1/2 supports the top 1/3 by paying but not showing up to events. The model was never well thought out, hence it's been bought and sold too many times to count, and can be bought again today. Nobody actually wants to "Run" the series or put in the hard work. Throwing money at the Top 3 is not enough. Sure, if you're Jake Vibbert sweeping the Top 5 more times than not, those $5k paychecks make it appear you can make a living doing it, but what about the 95 other shooters?

If you cannot' pay the entire field you are not a professional sport, you are still a hobby. We are far, far from that, you better chance getting a lightsaber lesson from Luke Skywalker.

 

[noisewaterphd]

the only thing i see keeping new shooters away from bigger matches (PRS/NRL) in our area is COST/their perceived skill level

our club matches over the last 2 years have gone from averaging 25 people to 55-60, and last weekend we had 76...of those 76, only about 15-20 actually go and shoot PRS matches...the rest of them dont want to pay the match fee, and are certain they cant compete (i hear this all the time)...if they are finishing mid to bottom of the pack in a club match, why would they spend 4x the match fee to step up to harder competition, thats their reasoning...or at least thats what they say

Exactly my point. The regional club matches are more catered toward the amateur shooter. Not just in proximity, and cost, but usually the course of fire and opportunity for a "prize" as well. I think the regionals will continue to grow quickly if folks are running a good regional series.

But, if we lose all of these guys from the national series things are going to get tough. The way things are set up right now we have to find a way to keep the casual competitor interested in the national level matches. I believe that is what Frank is attempting to do.

 

[davere]

the rest of them dont want to pay the match fee, and are certain they cant compete (i hear this all the time)...if they are finishing mid to bottom of the pack in a club match, why would they spend 4x the match fee to step up to harder competition, thats their reasoning...or at least thats what they say

Seems to be a common human trait... saw that all the time with handgun stuff. No one seems to realize that shooting bigger matches will speed up your trip to being competitive at that level. I've been shooting long range rifle for a year, now, and have shot about 3 local level matches in that time (everything is 3+ hours away from me, unfortunately). I'm shooting my first PRS match in a week. I'll likely get my ass kicked, and would be doing very well to shoot mid-pack - but I'm not going to finish at the top and hit the prize table, blah blah blah. I'm going to have fun (#1), and learn as much as I can to help speed me along the learning curve (#2).

But then... I show up to shoot and compete, not win shit. Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't mind winning shit, and I do my best to get things off a prize table that I'll actually use. I realize I'm an odd duck that way, apparently, but whatever.

 

[morganlamprecht]

But then... I show up to shoot and compete, not win shit. Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't mind winning shit, and I do my best to get things off a prize table that I'll actually use. I realize I'm an odd duck that way, apparently, but whatever.

same here, i show up to beat everyone else there...i wasnt raised with that "just have to be better than myself yesterday" feel good stuff, if they are keeping score, someone is gunna win, if im there, i want it to be me...just quit keeping score if thats not the case...threads like these always show me the difference in mindsets

 

[Bender]

It happened before my time, but I think that’s what happened to Revolver/steel matches in the 80’s? The pros were so good that it scared away the new guys? And then it just petered out.

 

[MarkCO]

Great discussion, a some good solutions. I'll toss in my perspectives...I shoot because I love to shoot. I train because I want to enjoy my shooting more. I have run some of the largest matches in the country (none Precision though) in multiple disciplines. Michael Bane even called me the best major match director in the country . I get asked to run/work matches every year and most I turn down. I sit on the BOD of a national shooting organization, work my butt off to bring in more hunters, plinkers and youth to the sport and am the Head Coach of my kid's HS sport shooting team. It is a passion for me. But I also own a firearms related company and have sponsored as many as 25 shooters (Including names like Miculek, Kelley, Atkinson who have won National and International Competitions) and 20 matches in a year to the tune of $70k/year at the peak. The ROI for sponsoring matches is crap and I now only sponsor the matches I love, run by friends and that I personally attend. The ROI for sponsoring shooters is about break even. I tracked shooters, codes, matches, etc for years to arrive at those conclusions, across multiple sports. At times, I found sponsored shooters of business competitors who picked up stuff off of prize tables and sold it while saying it was "okay for beginners" purposely hurting their sponsors competitors while pocketing the cash. When I see prizes from my sponsors on prize tables, I pass them up, even point them out to others I know are looking. What I take almost exclusively are training certificates and bullets. Whatever else I end up with goes to Juniors or new local shooters starting out, etc.

My thought is that the top guys won't use any of what they pick up (sans barrels and bullets) and sell most of it. In reality, that hurts the sponsors by devaluing the products. Discount codes only for match participants is an idea I would certainly like to see promoted and tweaked.

If I could start with a clean slate, here is what I would do (open to tweaks over time of course). I would like to see every shooter in a match have access to those products sponsors want widely distributed, so in a shooter bag that includes a discount code sheet that has one time codes for each shooter, I would put in those items. For those sponsors with high dollar items that want to sponsor matches (Title Sponsors, maybe a few Gold sponsors), I would use those items in a side shoot or non-score related component of a stage so EVERYONE in the match uses it, and then give those away random draw. For the top shooters, I would run it more like a Skins game. Those shooters who want in pay $100 on top of the match fee, limited to say 20 spots, match sponsors and some regular match fees added to make it worthwhile. For those shooters ONLY, on each stage, the par time would be reduced and only a clean score takes the stage money (or split if ties). Any stage without a clean, that money goes into a pot that goes to the top three at a 60/30/10 split at the end. I would procure something that is a cool regional, or sponsor branded trophy item, a guaranteed match entry the following year, and a box of bullets and give those out to the top shooter (non-skins entry) in each of the following: Male, Female, LE, Mil, Junior, Senior, 1st Match, .223, .308. I'd make a coin, or medallion and all shooters in the top 25% get one. For the months leading up to the match, instead of calling, sorting, checking and begging for prizes, I'd be much more proactive in promoting those few sponsors of the match. If those sponsors want to do a pre-match code, I'd send that out to first 50 shooters who sign up. The match results would be separated into Skins entries and everyone else.

Just my thoughts, and in no way presented as perfect, but I think that format does the best to bring in new shooters and grow the sport while also providing a path for the top shooters to compete head to head for cash.

 

[morganlamprecht]

i like the sound of this^^

 

[Lowlight]

This was my point, and has always been my point,

Get people talking to find a better solution, if you don't like my approach, okay, whatever, but it gets the conversation going. Solutions can be hashed out when people discuss the problem, big or small. A bias is a small problem but it can have a big impact on the perception out there.

Let me ask the haters, this, who else is working to solve this stuff. I am not even a member of these series, but the management keeps doing the same thing over and over, too afraid to make it appear there may be a need to change some things. They see change as weakness and by repeating themselves they give the illusion all is well. After that, it's more important to attack the messenger vs moving things forward. Remember this before you hate on my public comments, 99% of them were said in private first.

I think we have some great conversations happening here and that has always been the point.

 

[sinister]

Since when does a Green Beret deal with the competition side of things, talk to the sponsors who complain about the lack of return on investment, more typical liberal style justifications to change the story to some false equivalency in order to keep lining their own pockets, pretty funny. I was a Marine Sniper go figure, I trained a lot of those guys for years and years and did not just spend a weekend with one watching them from the corner of your eye, I interacted far beyond that, so what do I know.

Frank, if that was aimed at me, fair enough. I served on the Board of Directors for the US Olympic Shooting Team, and a lot of their sponsors talk in the millions (like pallet loads of ammunition annually for a number of shooters). I was merely throwing out ideas that work in the international, CMP, and USPSA-IPSC fields that have nothing to do with your work.

 

[Lowlight]

Frank, if that was aimed at me, fair enough. I served on the Board of Directors for the US Olympic Shooting Team, and a lot of their sponsors talk in the millions (like pallet loads of ammunition annually for a number of shooters). I was merely throwing out ideas that work in the international, CMP, and USPSA-IPSC fields that have nothing to do with your work.

No way Sinister, not pointed at you at all, some guy above said he said he shot a match alongside some former military guys, blah, blah, blah,


I appreciated your words, especially about the passion.

 

[reich10]

I am new to Long Range shooting. Researched a bunch and had a roommate in college that shot it(I never had the money).

I recently made the investment and I fully understand the cost getting into the sport/hobby and realize that the big national matches have become PRS Points matches. That means money is on the line and there are going to be some pros there. I expect to get my ass kicked(at first) and don’t expect to get a “Prize.” I do however expect the winner to get a prize and probably the best damn thing up there. Sponsored or not, to the victor go the spoils. As for what the prizes are, let the vendors/MD decide what they can and can’t give away.

I agree with the above that said the main barrier to new shooters is COST. I didn't spend all this money cause I was focused on going to the prize table. I spent the money cause I like to compete in all things shooting. My wife gets annoyed.

 

[Bender]

I would love to see a Coin or actual award for top three. The lottery style grab bags for lower (under top 3-10) with random prizes is an option. After, they can horse-trade whatever they RANDOMLY won, be that codes or prizes. I really like MarkCO’s ideas.

This discussion is how solutions are made.

 

[MarkCO]

I try to live by this principle...If you are going to complain, offer a reasonable solution. Too many clanging cymbals in the world.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Please bare with me as I have never been to a PRS/NRL comp, much less compete in one but I do have a question or two for @Lowlight and other match directors.

Would a company be allowed to be listed and advertised as a sponsor of the match and/or stage if they did not provide a prize for the "table" or "purely podium shooters" but rather yet hand picked a competitor of the match and/or stage to donate their product "prize" to?

How would this be viewed by the directors, other sponsors and other shooters of the match?

Lets say I wanted to be a sponsor of such and such match stage. I wanted that stage to be advertised as sponsored by one of my companies but I did not want to put receivers, etc on the prize table but wanted to watch that stage and personally pick the "winner" of the receiver, etc during awards ceremony.
Would that be allowed?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[morganlamprecht]

THEIS, matches have done this

the Hide cup a few years back had a gas gun stage and whoever went fastest got the gas gun if i remember correctly, another time they had a AI w/ irons stage, and whoever won that stage got the AI...at the Brawl this year Mile High gave an AI to the shooter who finished like 38th (randomly picked before the match)...ive also seen it done where they hand picked the shooter with the roughest looking rifle and gave him a new custom build

 

[JC Steel]

This was my point, and has always been my point,

Get people talking to find a better solution, if you don't like my approach, okay, whatever, but it gets the conversation going. Solutions can be hashed out when people discuss the problem, big or small. A bias is a small problem but it can have a big impact on the perception out there.

Let me ask the haters, this, who else is working to solve this stuff. I am not even a member of these series, but the management keeps doing the same thing over and over, too afraid to make it appear there may be a need to change some things. They see change as weakness and by repeating themselves they give the illusion all is well. After that, it's more important to attack the messenger vs moving things forward. Remember this before you hate on my public comments, 99% of them were said in private first.

I think we have some great conversations happening here and that has always been the point.

Yep^^^^

 

[TXBO]

Why has a handicap system not evolved in competitive shooting? Aside from a “production” class?

I come from a rodeo background, specifically team roping. It’s a very expensive hobby, horses aren’t cheap and they eat every day. Should be a rich mans game. But it’s not. The number system evens the playing field and everyone competes on the same level. Cash payout, incentive money for certain rounds, it’s a growing sport. Youth, senior, women all work in the number system. Numbers can be gamed a couple times but a committee decides the rankings after every event - you win you move up, simple.

Please excuse my ignorance, I’m curious why bowling, golf and even dumb cowboys can figure this out but this is a sore subject for shooting sports. I’ve always viewed competitive shooting as a literal arms race that rewards the guys with the most money, not always the most skill and many events don’t suit the casual hunter or gun owner. Maybe I am just out of the loop as a civilian but it seems there is not much outreach to the casual gun owner

I've got some rodeo history also. I agree with most of what you said but I didn't see near enough mandatory move ups in numbers. The biggest challenge also is having a data base that includes local and large matches. USTRC was the only organization that could do it well enough and it was gamed plenty.

I think a simpler handicap would be the 4D system like the barrel racers use based on the best score of the day.

1D would be won by top score and everyone within say 10 hits of the winner is in 1D.
2D winner is the top score below any body within 10 hits.
3D winner is the top score below anybody within 20 hits of the top score.
And so on for as many divisions as you want.

It's hard to game because nobody knows what the top score will be or the divisions until the race is over. Novice barrel races will pony up with the pros because they have a chance to win something even though they know they can't compete with the pros.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Thanks Morgan!!

 

[TXBO]

If you cannot' pay the entire field you are not a professional sport, you are still a hobby. We are far, far from that, you better chance getting a lightsaber lesson from Luke Skywalker.

That just can't happen unless there is enough spectator interest to sell tickets or broadcast rights. There will never be enough spectator interest for that.

A couple of years ago some top rodeo cowboys decided they would form their own organization because they wanted a bigger share of the prize money, limited entries and less time on the road. They were humbled in less than a year. There are few people that go to rodeos to see the superstars of the sport. Most rodeo attendees couldn't name two of the the competitors. The organization they left set many attendance records without them. They disbanded and returned in less than two years.

 

[MarkCO]

Lets say I wanted to be a sponsor of such and such match stage. I wanted that stage to be advertised as sponsored by one of my companies but I did not want to put receivers, etc on the prize table but wanted to watch that stage and personally pick the "winner" of the receiver, etc during awards ceremony.
Would that be allowed?

Sincerely,
Theis

While I have done 50% shooter, fastest shooter, shooter closest to PAR, highest first match, highest Junior, etc., I would not allow a sponsor to personally pick the competitor to whom their prize went at a match I run. The criteria for the prize must be either random, or a specific stated qualification for such. Otherwise, it would create angst I would not want to deal with. Say you wanted to give a prize for "Best Sportsmanship", you would have to let the competitors or staff group pick such a person.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

BUT the shooter picked by the company sponsor would be random. Just randomly picked by the sponsor, not the match directors.
So your saying the Match Directors could pick the random winner but not the actual company sponsor?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[MarkCO]

That just can't happen unless there is enough spectator interest to sell tickets or broadcast rights. There will never be enough spectator interest for that.

Exhibit A:

Exhibit B: could well have been 3GN if they had not screwed over so many people on the way.

Exhibit C: The Grand American (Trap) pays out $100K to the winner.

The problem with Precision, and most action shooting sports as far as TV coverage, is that they are boring to watch for the most part. There are some things that can be done, but without punches, homeruns, wrecks and snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, TV coverage won't ever do it alone. It has to be "Events". We have tried to do some of that with American Marksman, Crimson Trace Invitational and in 2018, the Aguila Cup. Those events are fun to watch, cheer for the participants (we don't develop characters in the shooting sports like American Idol), but industry is too short sighted and most competitors are too self-focused (not being critical, just is). Also, we don't invite the public to the events because we are "scared" of the news coverage. There are things happening in youth and shooting events this year and the foundation has been laid, It is going to take some boldness to push the envelope out of our comfort zone.

Frank, with the Everyday Sniper and Dave Hartman with the 3Gun Show have probably done as much as anyone else to open the doors to the new shooters. But, if "we" don't get our friends and neighbors competing, and soon, in whatever of the 20 some odd shooting sports, we are doomed long term. I have long held that we are all just hobbyists (there might be 6 people in the US who actually make a living shooting competitions) and that is okay. But there are some paths that will move us (and it has to be all of the shooting sports) towards wider acceptance in the general population.

 

[Sheldon N]

If you look at the sport and the total number of participants this is such a tiny pie that there is no sense fighting over it. We are a small group of shooters involved in an expensive sport (hobby).

The manufacturers do not make enough money to fund this sport in a serious way. There is not enough shooter attendance at matches for the entry fees to fund anything of significance, and that would just be the bottom shooters funding the top shooters. There is no outside money coming in. No spectators, no advertisers, no broadcast contracts. There is no money to fight over.

There's just *barely* enough money at the prize table to whet people's appetite and make them think there's something more. There's NOT, and I don't think there will be. I just don't see this sport ever getting big enough to change that. The cost of individual participation is too high and general public sentiment is trending in another direction.

As far as what can be done from the inside... make the system fair, make it welcoming and accessible to newer participants, make it fun, make it suited to the needs of the sponsors, and most of all don't eat your own. Lots of good suggestions above that I agree with. Not ranting at anyone in the thread, just wanted to interject a dose of reality.

EDIT: Didn't see MarkCO's comments until after I posted, but agree with what he's saying.

 

[MarkCO]

Hi,

BUT the shooter picked by the company sponsor would be random. Just randomly picked by the sponsor, not the match directors.
So your saying the Match Directors could pick the random winner but not the actual company sponsor?

Sincerely,
Theis

With a Random number generator, or out of a hat by the sponsor, sure. But the sponsor naming a specific name without verification that it is random, by definition would not be random.