My subsonics tumbles

Daneren

Default viking
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 5, 2013
54
3
Hi,

I have been loading and testing subsonics in both 30.06 and .308Win.

I use the same 168gr Speer BTHP projectile, over 10gr N32C, Magnum primer, 3,5mm flashhole. (And 3gr cotton filler in 30.06).


"Well, that's great! But what's the problem?" You might ask.
- The s**t tumbles! The bullets enter the targets sideways...

The speed is about the same on both 320 m/sec (1050fps).


My own idea is to change the bullet to something with a flat bottom, instead of a boattail.

Suggestions and ideas are very welcome! :)
 
150 gr flat nose 30-30 bullets from any manufacturer. I have used Berry's plated 150's over Titegroup with good results. They are a bit soft too so you may even get some flattening/expansion out of them. Forget the 168's for subsonic use.
 
If 168's are all you have you might try turning them backwards when you load them. Believe it or not they are more stable backwards.

I have a 1:12 twist 308 and had no trouble stabilizing 170 gr round nose 30-30 bullets and when loaded to the same ogive I would get just over Moa at 100 yards. I used titegroup powder (about 8gr in 308 if I remember correctly) and no filler.

Really if you want to shoot a lot of subsonic 308 it would be worth your money to invest in a 1:7 or 1:8 twist 300 blkout. Lower case volume is made for subs and the faster twist will stabilize 220 or 240 smk's which will give you more energy when you are limited to 1050 ish fps.


--Daniel
 
I'm toying with the subs for the fun of it. I have no intention of pouring a lot of money (That i don't have) in this project.

I might be able (Find the required fonds) to simply try other bullets, or buy a mold. I have all the equipment (And experience), for casting my own.


30-30 bullets have been mentioned more than once. I will have a look at some of those. - Maybe see if i can find a 30-30 bullet mold.
 
i'm toying with the subs for the fun of it. I have no intention of pouring a lot of money (that i don't have) in this project.

I might be able (find the required fonds) to simply try other bullets, or buy a mold. I have all the equipment (and experience), for casting my own.


30-30 bullets have been mentioned more than once. I will have a look at some of those. - maybe see if i can find a 30-30 bullet mold.

first time on any type of forum. I shoot a 300 win mag with 220gr sierra round nose and has always stabilized with subsonic loads. Very accurate with no primer hole enlargement or filler.
 
Yes, you are right. I tried several bullets from 168gr to 220gr including the 200gr lapua subsonic and 200gr smk. None were nearly as accurate as the 220gr roundnose. I was getting around 2 in. Groups with all but the 220gr and can consistantly get .75 in groups with the roundnose. You may already have a place to look at bullet stability, but bergerbullets.com website has a ballistic section for twist rate and bullet stability that i have found very helpful and accurate. By what i have read about 30 cal bullets is that a 1:10 twist rate is a minimum for subsonic accuracy. The 30-06 that you mentioned may stabilize a shorter and heavier roundnose but not a matchking bullet. Just trying to help to solve your problem.
 
Yes, you are right. I tried several bullets from 168gr to 220gr including the 200gr lapua subsonic and 200gr smk. None were nearly as accurate as the 220gr roundnose. I was getting around 2 in. Groups with all but the 220gr and can consistantly get .75 in groups with the roundnose. You may already have a place to look at bullet stability, but bergerbullets.com website has a ballistic section for twist rate and bullet stability that i have found very helpful and accurate. By what i have read about 30 cal bullets is that a 1:10 twist rate is a minimum for subsonic accuracy. The 30-06 that you mentioned may stabilize a shorter and heavier roundnose but not a matchking bullet. Just trying to help to solve your problem.

This is useful! I will try the Berger twistcalculator.

Dont't worry, i were not trying to be "pissy" or anything before. :)
 
I don't think, without spending money you don't have, there is any way to stabilize whichever bullet you choose unless you have enough RPM .....and velocity. Whatever your motivation for subsonic, it must also involve some form of acceptable accuracy. Does it involve a surpressor, or what?

Key holing bullets are not accurate bullets. So, however you determine subsonic, with calculations or a chronograph, I think you should bump it up to the velocity threshold and see if the bullets print nice round holes. It's your project and only you can do it. BB
 
<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/funny" target="_blank"><img src="http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/lynnes_pictures/FUNNY/6c2f2089.jpg" border="0" alt="funny photo: FUNNY 6c2f2089.jpg"/></a>
 
Hello,
I had a bad experience with a cotton filler making reduces loads. Later finding out cotton is used to make
nitro cellulose it explains why you can have a detonation. There are powders that fill a case enough without
a filler or use "grits". I can't explan why your tumble unless they are going really slow, 1 / 11 is fast enough
for 168 gr bullet; change the load, try Imr-sr-4759.
 
Hello,
I had a bad experience with a cotton filler making reduces loads. Later finding out cotton is used to make
nitro cellulose it explains why you can have a detonation. There are powders that fill a case enough without
a filler or use "grits". I can't explan why your tumble unless they are going really slow, 1 / 11 is fast enough
for 168 gr bullet; change the load, try Imr-sr-4759.

The filler has only been used in the 30.06. I were using Vihtavuori N32C, which is basically the same as IMR Trailboss.

I also use cotton as a filler in my BP loads, for my Rolling Block. Never had a problem with that.

I'd love to try IMR powders, but i live in Denmark in Europe (If you're not familiar with the small and insignificant country), and all you can get your hands on, is Norma, Vihtavuori and Vectan powders as it looks like right now.

Most of all, i'd like to try some of Hodgdon's extreme series...


This is what i will try in my .308 (When i'm done moving): Reverse the 168gr bullet. Try a small batch of Hornady RN 150/180gr and later try bullets from a Lee mold.
 
Still wondering. I don't know why somebody, (even a Danish) would desperately need to do this? It's okay with me, I'm just puzzled?

Because i can. Do you need more excuses than that? - I don't :)

Shooting and hunting is a hobby, and a great part of my life. And i want to explore and experiment. It's exciting, thrilling and rewarding.

Why only shoot supersonics? Why not do something different, just because you can?
 
Because you can? Thanks, that's the lamest reason I have heard in a while. BB

edit: NO OFFENSE, OF COURSE. JUST AN OPINION.

That's like saying: "Hey, let me spit in your face real quick. No offence of course..."

Nevertheless, i don't care what your opinion about subsonics is. I'm making them anyways, and will be having fun doing it ;)
 
Some good info on reduced loads in large cases-
With five grains of Red Dot around 800 fps...and 8 grains around 1000 fps. For low noise loads, with Bullseye or Clays, you need a minimum run of at least 3+ grains in this class of cases. Remember as you lower the bullet weight in any caliber with cast bullets for quiet loads...you actually need more powder...the bullet weight is the determining factor in the efficiency of the powder burn and silence is measured in barrel length. In a 26 inch barrel...with a 220 grain NEI .308 cast bullet over 3 grains of Clays...almost silent...With a 150 grain RCBS bullet, 3 and ½ grains was needed and it was like a loud cap gun from a 24 inch barrel .308 Winchester. So you have to play with powder levels of Bullseye or Clays for silent loads...but you are not going to get there with 180 grain cast slugs and under.

The 170 thru 190 grain cast slugs...8 grains of Unique goes 1250 fps. With 20 grains of 2400 you will get 1800 fps as will 18 grains of SR 4759. Five grains of WW231 or HP38 will go around 1000 fps.
-from here-http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/small_charges.htm

check out these for possible moulds
.308 -.311, NOE Bullet Moulds

I will add also that you may want to use large pistol primers instead of rifle while you're experimenting.
 
i hear all yalls advice and shat at it, i shall do as i wish launching frisbees downrange like a tard, no offense

I did not. In fact, i followed some advice, listened to some, weighed the options, and ignored the advise that goes straight against the subsonic idea (Yours in fact). And ignored (Well, i answered the question) certain peoples general opinion about the subject.

To the people with sound advice and tips; i thank you.

To the others: Open your minds for other peoples opinions, and respect the fact that we do not all think alike.


Topic can be closed. I won't follow it anymore.
 
Cant really help you on this one. I shoot my subs to 400 with great accuracy (ton of drop of course)

175 grainer 1/10 twist 20" barrel. 10.2 grains trailboss with no filler and standard large primer (no reaming)

Shoots sub moa all day.

I shoot 225 subs too but that is out of a 1/8 16" barrel. They work well and hit hard
 
You didn't respond to dddoo7's post but he was spot-on. Your bullet will be more stable if it's loaded backwards, ogive in, base out. Or at least more nearly stable. Whether that will be stable enough, I couldn't tell you. And at SS velocities, it probably also will have better terminal effects flying base-first.

The 'standard' rate of twist for the 300 AAC/Blackout/Whisper is 1:8, so I'd expect a spot of bother from any .30 caliber bullet shot through a 1:11 (but that doesn't mean it can't be made to work). The 300 AAC needs a tighter twist because subsonics are harder to stabilize.


From "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting", Bryan Litz, ISBN-13: 978-0615452562

This represents the relationships of the key players, Center of Gravity (CG) and Center of Aerodynamic Pressure (CP), in a streamlined, pointy-nosed bullet. Two things to note. First, the CP is in front of the CG. This is why the bullet is un-stable to begin with. And second, the CG is way back in the thick end of the bullet.

Every moving object that travels with its CP forward of its CG has negative static stability (= is unstable). It's why rear-engined cars (Chevy Corvair & Porsche 911) have notoriously tricky handling. It's why you put fins on a rocket or fletchings on an arrow, why they put tails on kites and why a 4th of July bottle rocket is stable in flight with nothing any more hi-tech than a skinny stick trailing behind it. All examples of devices that do nothing more than create a little extra drag aft of the CG, producing positive static stability in the doing.

We see the same principle demonstrated in the design of a "diabolo"-style airgun pellet, which has as much mass as possible crammed up near the nose, putting CG as near as possible to the tip, and a wide, flared skirt to add drag at the back.



Which is why pellets are stable, even when fired from a smooth-bore "b.b. gun." Yes, they are more accurate when fired through a rifled barrel, but accuracy is a completely different subject from stability. Similarly, arrows are more accurate if the fletchings have a bit of "helical" to cause them to spin in flight, but they still are perfectly stable with no helical.

A bullet flying with its CP ahead of its CG (as is its norm) has the same problem as an arrow that has been shot fletchings first. It is unstable and wants very much to turn around. In the bullet's case, what is required to prevent it doing so is the conservation of angular momentum, or what is commonly referred to as "gyroscopic force." Spin.

A number of properties affect how fast a bullet has to be spun to make it stable. The one that is relevant to this conversation also is the one that changes constantly through the flight of the bullet, the distance between the CP and the CG: the CP-CG moment arm. Like the CG is the point around which all the gravitational forces are balanced, the CP is the point around which all aerodynamic forces are balanced. Except gravity is a constant, so the CG always is in the same spot. CP, OTOH, is the result of the pressures from the air flowing around the bullet, so CP moves any time there is a change to the airflow.

The longer that moment arm is, the CP-CG moment arm, the more pronounced the object's stability (or instability) will be. So in a pointy bullet, the further apart those two points are, the more unstable it is and the harder it has to be spun.



As this chart shows, the supersonic shockwave creates a several fold increase in aerodynamic drag. But it doesn't only affect the bullet at its tip, it also occurs down its flanks. And the fact of adding drag down the sides causes the CP to move away from the nose and nearer to the CG. Which shortens the CP-CG moment arm. Which makes the bullet less un-stable and easier to stabilize.

All of which goes to why a bullet designed for supersonic flight becomes harder to stabilize when it loses the supersonic shockwave. And why any pointy-nosed bullet is easier to stabilize when you shoot it ass-end first.

So dddoo7 wasn't pulling your chain. Your 168-gr Speers will come closer to being stable if you shoot them backwards. And a subsonic bullet has no "hydrostatic shock" to enhance terminal effects, but it will cause tissue to have to move more violently to get out of the bullet's way if it impacts blunt end first. So you'll probably get better terminal effects in the bargain.