My thoughts on Remington

[Dead Eye Dick]

Regarding the breakup of the conglomerate that used to be Remington

Remington needs to go back to building their core products. The 700 bolt action rille, the 870 pump action shotgun and the 1100 model Semi-auto shotgun. Why waste time,money and effort struggling to build all different types of pistols, multiple shotgun and rifle lines and up till now, just about everything that can possibly be built out of metal, cloth or wood.

When they are financially stable, then branch out to meet other firearm needs but never stray too far from the 700 style action, jsut like they used to with the 600, the XP-100 and the model 7.

Emulate Savage. They made it by going back to the basic, the Savage Bolt Action. Make it simple but make it good. If you build it right, people will buy.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Congratulations on being the first person to reach that conclusion.

 

[jcmullis2]

I agree with you 100%. I didn’t realize they had broken off from the others. Maybe they’ll go back to the way it was in the 60s, one rifle at a time. I watched a video on YouTube by Remington Arms called “One at a time” and it showed how they made guns and why they were great at it.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Congratulations on being the first person to reach that conclusion.

I am assuming and appreciate the touch of gentle sarcasm in your thoughts. However sometimes people get so involved in the details that they ignore the obvious. So, I thought it needed to be said. I jsut could not find a better place to say it.

 

[308pirate]

Remington needs to go back to building their core products. The 700 bolt action rille, the 870 pump action shotgun and the 1100 model Semi-auto shotgun.

The 1100 needs to die. The Versamax and the V3 really are superior shotguns.

I've had 1100s and 11-87s, several of them over the years and from back when they were well made. Nevertheless, after field stripping then shooting a friend's V3 there is no way I would ever go back to an 1100.

 

[Josh1978]

I have had an 870 pump gun for nearly 30 years and have never had a single malfunction. I definitely agree with keeping that line. It’s a great starter gun.

 

[Josh1978]

I am assuming and appreciate the touch of gentle sarcasm in your thoughts. However sometimes people get so involved in the details that they ignore the obvious. So, I thought it needed to be said. I jsut could not find a better place to say it.

Try to ignore shit head comments. They are completely counter productive to any type of conversation.

 

[Mudmarine]

The only way remington could compete on shotguns other than a price race to the bottom is if they started making benellis or berrettas, or clones thereof.

The 700 action is in trouble too. Expensive to make. Expensive in time to assemble and QA. Fewer features than its contemporaries. Nostalgia is the biggest selling point and that is not a recipe for success.

 

[gnochi]

As far as I can tell, Remington has done neither R&D, manufacturing process development, or quality control in the last couple decades, and floated by on cost cutting and “patriotism”. They’re a perfect example of companies that should die from their own incompetence, and a perfect example for why company officers and board members should not have the perverse incentive to run a company into the ground and sell their stock before the market realizes that.

To their credit, at least they’re not trying to sue everyone else into nonexistence, so they’re not a total leech in the firearms market.

 

[mensajd]

What's the problem with letting the firearms part of Remington go gentle into that good night? They haven't made anything I wished to buy in decades.

 

[308pirate]

The only way remington could compete on shotguns other than a price race to the bottom is if they started making benellis or berrettas, or clones thereof.

The Versamax and V3 are, engineering wise, as good or better than anything made in Italy.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

As far as I can tell, Remington has done neither R&D, manufacturing process development, or quality control in the last couple decades, and floated by on cost cutting and “patriotism”. They’re a perfect example of companies that should die from their own incompetence, and a perfect example for why company officers and board members should not have the perverse incentive to run a company into the ground and sell their stock before the market realizes that.

To their credit, at least they’re not trying to sue everyone else into nonexistence, so they’re not a total leech in the firearms market.

They're no worse than the others.
I've had tons of issues with savage, Winchester, etc..
I think every mass producer is racing to the bottom with a few exceptions of course.
This is why I build my rifles, shotguns are another story

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

Don't let me forget to mention Browning, my buddy had an X bolt that woulda been more effective if he swung it..

 

[Mech Eng]

The first rifle I bought was a model 700 and it was rough but I was to young to the difference and on its first trip to the range the first two rounds went off with the safety on while closing the bolt. And a week later I received a recall letter in the mail won't buy Remington again after that.

 

[vinniedelpino]

The first rifle I bought was a model 700 and it was rough but I was to young to the difference and on its first trip to the range the first two rounds went off with the safety on while closing the bolt. And a week later I received a recall letter in the mail won't buy Remington again after that.

This. What's the remington name really worth anymore? There's no equity in the company anymore. Liabilities are likely equal, or greater to the fair market value of the organizations assets, and contingent liabilities pertaining to lawsuits just make the situation worse. Add to that the collective bargaining agreements with the UMWA and I can't figure out how the company is going to continue.

We might see a "Springfield Armory" type of situation, but that's it. Remington is done. As it should be. I'd rather see a bunch of smaller, more innovative US companies take that market share anyway.

 

[Dingodog]

I agree with many of the comments. The 700 is a dated platform. Sure sell their legacy lines till they stabilize but innovate. A modular bolt action needs to be done well. Not Savage quality but something that the aftermarket can get into and customers can modify without a gunsmith.
The V3 and versamax max are rip off designs of Benelli so at least they chose a product that is decent to copy.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

Some good points in this thread but I did laugh my ass off , you guys kill me sometimes LMFAO

Mike R.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

The 1100 needs to die. The Versamax and the V3 really are superior shotguns.

I've had 1100s and 11-87s, several of them over the years and from back when they were well made. Nevertheless, after field stripping then shooting a friend's V3 there is no way I would ever go back to an 1100.

I'd agree the 1100 needs a contract to be permanently whacked

Mike R.

 

[308pirate]

The V3 and versamax max are rip off designs of Benelli so at least they chose a product that is decent to copy.

It's about as much of a copy as the A390 operating system is a copy of the 1100's. The operating principles are the same, that's about it.

But maybe we have some IP law experts here and we don't know.

 

[Mech Eng]

I want to see someone who is passionate about firearms take over Remington because in this industry that is whats needed. I think having three rifle lines would be a good way to go. With a legacy line of the model 700 made one at a time and then a new line of the model 700 with the upgrades that most people have done, this allows people to use the massive aftermarket for the 700. And final a rifle designed with the help of PRS since it is one of the fastest growing type of competition. I would like to see the V3 improved on quality because it felt a little cheap but the design works well. And finally a real good quality 870 because it was and can still be a great shot gun. But the change won't happen unless they install the right leadership because that will make or break a company. Just my two cents.

 

[mensajd]

It's about as much of a copy as the A390 operating system is a copy of the 1100's. The operating principles are the same, that's about it.

But maybe we have some IP law experts here and we don't know.

I'm an IP law expert but am not familiar with shotguns. But if the Benelli mechanical design has been around for >= 20 years, then the basic, corresponding utility and design patents (if any) will likely have expired.

 

[308pirate]

I'm an IP law expert but am not familiar with shotguns. But if the Benelli mechanical design has been around for >= 20 years, then the basic, corresponding utility and design patents (if any) will likely have expired.

Remington took the principle behind Benelli's ARGO gas operating system and improved it by giving it the ability to auto regulate gas volume regardless of the length of the shell.

The ARGO system is more than 20 years old I think

 

[rookie7]

You all have me curious out of ignorance. What’s wrong with the 1100?

I’ve got a 20 gauge lightweight model from the early 80s that works well. Haven’t shot it in a few years though.

 

[gnochi]

You all have me curious out of ignorance. What’s wrong with the 1100?

I’ve got a 20 gauge lightweight model from the early 80s that works well. Haven’t shot it in a few years though.

Well, I have a 12ga and 2 barrels. The barrel for 1oz lead cycles 1oz lead very effectively, and seizes at 7/8oz, and has the handguard smoke a lot and cycles very aggressively at 1.25oz.

The barrel intended for steel shot won’t cycle steel shot, after adding an additional port, drilling out both ports to the recommended size for the load, cleaning the recoil spring area, replacing the O ring, lubricating the piston, ensuring the piston and seal gaps aren’t aligned...

 

[moosemeat]

The 700 just needs to be made properly and Remington needs to make some effort in giving people what they want. If they can do that, bid them fair well.

 

[mensajd]

[stuff deleted]

The 700 action is in trouble too. Expensive to make. Expensive in time to assemble and QA. Fewer features than its contemporaries. Nostalgia is the biggest selling point and that is not a recipe for success.

At the time of its introduction, the 700 action was designed to be inexpensive to mass produce based upon the manufacturing capabilities of the time. What has changed in the interim to make the model 700 action expensive to manufacture, assemble and test now? Not a rhetorical question.

 

[moosemeat]

Nothing. It's still pretty inexpensive for them to manufactor. If they switched to a barrel nut system it would save some money as well.
The fact that Remington sells 700 rifles for $399 on the regular shows that it's not expensive to make.
My hope is the clean up their manufacturing process to turn out a higher quality product and start listening to the rifle community on what we want, not what they want to make.

 

[BarkBeetle]

Remington is just another example of investment conglomerates purchasing a known company,
investing nothing, running the brand into the dirt then divesting and leaving the lawyers to clean
up the mess.
Done all the time with every type of business you can think of, America in decline .

 

[Mudmarine]

At the time of its introduction, the 700 action was designed to be inexpensive to mass produce based upon the manufacturing capabilities of the time. What has changed in the interim to make the model 700 action expensive to manufacture, assemble and test now? Not a rhetorical question.

I guess i mispoke when I said this. The point I was trying to drive home was the added cost in QA and chambering/setup to equal the value one gets from a cheap stevens 200 or other savage rifle that will shoot sub moa all day long. At the low end of the market, there are cheaper rifles that shoot better and at the higher end, there are better actions that shoot better Or have more features. The 700 does not seem to own any specific niche in the whole gamut of rifle actions. It’s not the best at anything, and only marginal on the rest.

Remington has been living off of the ”brand” for too many years and not innovating. Too many other better actions and rifle “packages” in roughly the same price points make choosing a 700 an excercise in nostalgia. Too bad Harley Davidson didn’t put a bid in.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Remington certainly has a history.
Last one I bought was a LTR .308.
And that had a McMillan stock, the issue stock was truly shithouse.
It's a shame that they are in decline.
Good news is, some many other quality brands of rifles to choose from

 

[Millron]

Remington certainly has a history.
Last one I bought was a LTR .308.
And that had a McMillan stock, the issue stock was truly shithouse.
It's a shame that they are in decline.
Good news is, some many other quality brands of rifles to choose from

FYI - LTR s were issued with HS stocks, not mcmillan. And i agree they are werent a good design for a long range gun

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I guess i mispoke when I said this. The point I was trying to drive home was the added cost in QA and chambering/setup to equal the value one gets from a cheap stevens 200 or other savage rifle that will shoot sub moa all day long. At the low end of the market, there are cheaper rifles that shoot better and at the higher end, there are better actions that shoot better Or have more features. The 700 does not seem to own any specific niche in the whole gamut of rifle actions. It’s not the best at anything, and only marginal on the rest.

Remington has been living off of the ”brand” for too many years and not innovating. Too many other better actions and rifle “packages” in roughly the same price points make choosing a 700 an excercise in nostalgia. Too bad Harley Davidson didn’t put a bid in.

Kind of my point. Make the 700 action what it should be, not just a clone of what they have been doing. Make it a quality work.

I have owned several XP-100 handguns. Most have been rebuilt in full customs. However, I came across a four digit model from the first year of production. Despite the plastic stock, the action exuded quality. We still own an early model 700 in .243. (The model with the pressed checkering). Again, the action and fittings (excepting that checkeering) are as nice as anything I have ever held including rifles costing 6 figures. My last 700, purchased about ten years ago, exuded sandpaper. True, the model was supposed to have a non-glare finish, but the bolt had all the finess and feel of rubbing two pieces of sandpaper together. The stock was flimsy plastic. The rifle would put two shots into one hole and the next shot and inch or more away. (Usually much more than an inch). Nothing would correct this including a different scope, different factory loads and different handloads.. Next, I found the rounds would not feed from the magazine. A friend suggested an HS Precision stock would cure the accuracy problem. I cured the accuracy problem all right....

I sold it and purchased a $550.00 Weatherby Vanguard in .25-06. Puts three shots under an inch with the first shot coming from a cold barrel. Kills big game. Does exactly what I want.

However, inexpensive rifles are everywhere. Models are too numerous to even mention. Want a good inexpensive rifle, get a Ruger American or a Weatherby Vanguard. Trying to compete here is a waste. A death.

So, Make the 700 action what it should be. Make the rifles what they should be. Don’t stay the course taken. It is a downhill spiral. Make it again, but make it right. Include the features that make the action competitive.

One can live by doing what people want and doing it right the first time. One can die but tying to do everything at once. (And getting nothing right)

Remington gets a chance to do it right the first time...Again.

But it will probably be the LAST time.

 

[308pirate]

Fuck for 400 bucks the Mauser M18 is a steal for a basic kill-stuff rifle.

 

[Kir]

In 2008, I found a used, but in great condition, Rem model 597 in .22 Mag. It had the usual FTF and FTE probs which many peopled blamed on the magazines. Rem had made three versions of them but I still had probs with the 3rd version. Someone here mentioned I should get a new extractor, a Volquartsen, which I did and it helped a lot as did the 4th version of magazines that I found out about. So now after many years of sitting in my safe, I have a great rifle in a caliber which I prefer over the .22 LR. Cost not a problem. In addition, since I found out about the latest ammo/firearm shortage, I still managed to find some ammo at Wal-Mart. Good shootin' to y'all.

 

[Boltyboi]

Don't let me forget to mention Browning, my buddy had an X bolt that woulda been more effective if he swung it..

Atleast browning knows how to make a shotgun

 

[hlee]

Ive got no issue with the stock 700s that my hands have been on. That said, the newest is 20 years old. Don’t tell the lawyers, but you can scrape the goo off of the trigger screws and with a screw driver and a bit of patience, you can generally come up with a perfectly safe, crisp, ~2lb trigger. They shoot factory ammo at ~2 moa, which isn’t anything to brag, but will put deer and elk on the ground at ethical ranges. Hand loads can get them down in the 1moa 5 shot group range- and I take that for a sporter-weight barrel that gets shot enough each year to fill a freezer.

The made for Walmart scope/rifles packages don’t really appeal to me, even if the combo goes for what a bare action runs at brownels. Who needs another trash optic/rings? And, is anyone really looking to buy a factory barrel and Tupperware stock?

But, the one 1100 that I’ve handled was a pile of shit. Maybe it was ragged out, as it was second hand, but it didnt cycle for shit and was sent on its way. And, the 870 is a trash design when compared to the Winchester 1300.

 

[YF12A]

I guess i mispoke when I said this. The point I was trying to drive home was the added cost in QA and chambering/setup to equal the value one gets from a cheap stevens 200 or other savage rifle that will shoot sub moa all day long. At the low end of the market, there are cheaper rifles that shoot better and at the higher end, there are better actions that shoot better Or have more features. The 700 does not seem to own any specific niche in the whole gamut of rifle actions. It’s not the best at anything, and only marginal on the rest.

Remington has been living off of the ”brand” for too many years and not innovating. Too many other better actions and rifle “packages” in roughly the same price points make choosing a 700 an excercise in nostalgia. Too bad Harley Davidson didn’t put a bid in.

Harley Davidson has it's own very large share of problems right now. They've made some big mistakes in marketing decisions among other bad ideas like a very expensive electric bike. They are selling half the motorcycles they were 10 years ago, closing a plant, and don't seem to understand their current demographics as well as they need to. The old days of having to stand in line to put a deposit down on a bike you would get when they made them are gone. Then, Indian came along with an excellent new product and now H D has a problem it hasn't had in a looong time. If HD survives at its current size in 10 years might be a miracle, more likely they might end up being a boutique brand,

The last thing they need to do is buy another struggling company with a completely new set of problems, IMHO. I wish both companies well, but retail is brutal now more than ever.-

 

[308pirate]

The Versamax and V3 are, engineering wise, as good or better than anything made in Italy.

@Workmate I'd be interested in your professional opinion

 

[Workmate]

@Workmate I'd be interested in your professional opinion

I haven’t waterfowl hunted with anyone who has had a good thing to say about the Versamax. Just my experience with different guys I have hunted with. The guys that had them used them 1 season and bought Barettaa or benelli.

 

[308pirate]

I haven’t waterfowl hunted with anyone who has had a good thing to say about the Versamax. Just my experience with different guys I have hunted with. The guys that had them used them 1 season and bought Barettaa or benelli.

You mean the same Benellis with chronic POI issues?

I don't have either brand, so I have no problem being objective.

 

[hlee]

How much are waterfowl guns getting shot, really?

 

[308pirate]

How much are waterfowl guns getting shot, really?

That just depends on how good you want to be. Some guns get at most a flat of shells a year, others get 5 - 10K a year (the majority being clay loads).

 

[hlee]

That just depends on how good you want to be. Some guns get at most a flat of shells a year, others get 5 - 10K a year (the majority being clay loads).

Yeah, I guess my point is that I’m not running to a “hunter” (especially a hunter with a day job- not to be confused with a PH) for an opinion on a gun- shotgun or otherwise.

my son’s put in excess of 10,000 shells through his gun since this time last year and can’t remember the model name...

We could all be shooting 700 ADLs in 270win, topped with Leupold VX scopes in dovetail rings...

 

[Baron23]

You mean the same Benellis with chronic POI issues?

I don't have either brand, so I have no problem being objective.

I guess I’m not familiar w this alleged issue.

Can you tell me more about it?

I have a SBE II...had it at least 15 years, prob a bit more. I have patterned it and it shot fine for a waterfowler.

I only have one friend who had a Versamax. He won it and sold it shortly thereafter as he thought it was just too light for a waterfowler. But I did see him have a lot of fun w it on a five stand and got the impression from him that it would make a better five stand/SC gun than a duck blind/goose pit gun.

How much are waterfowl guns getting shot, really?

Not very much, particularly compared to a clays gun, but it will really piss you off if you got up, out in the cold, set your rig up in the dark, fooled the crap out of them calling, and then your gun FtF. Make you want to take up fishing. LOL

Now frankly, I really don’t see this SBE being sophisticated engineering, the trigger is shit spec’d by a liability lawyer, and fit and finish are far from impressive. But it’s inertial w no gas system to gunk up and the worst that can happen is usually fixed w a bit of Break Free on the bolt. It will shoot in the freezing cold and wet.

Now, I’m no great wing shot but we try to bring them in and shoot them over the decoys and it performs well for that

 

[308pirate]

I guess I’m not familiar w this alleged issue.

Can you tell me more about it?

I have a SBE II...had it at least 15 years, prob a bit more. I have patterned it and it shot fine for a waterfowler.

There's tons of complaints on the Shotgunworld forum about that. I never dove into it because I've never had a Benelli and likely never will as they aren't ideal for my shotgun uses. IIRC the issue was mostly confined to the Super Black Eagle. More than that I can't say.

I wouldn't worry about it if yours shoots where you want it to.

 

[Baron23]

Thanks! Used to spend a ton of time on SGW but that was quite a bit ago. Just don’t have time or sufficient interest to spend on multiple boards and rifles and competent marksmanship are my current burning interests.

as I said, I don’t view the SBE II as any sort of fine piece of shotgun craft. It’s rough but extremely rugged IME.

But the trigger really was terrible. Even for a hunting gun. Mushy Feeling break w a lot of pre-play, about 9 lbs pull, and if I didn’t have a friend who is one of the few smiths who will tweak that trigger a bit....well, I prob would have sold it long ago.

 

[Kir]

If anybody ever wants my professional opinion, its cash upfront!!!

 

[Workmate]

How much are waterfowl guns getting shot, really?

a lot. In less than desirable conditions

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

If anybody ever wants my professional opinion, its cash upfront!!!

In the end, what you said is in reality The Only Thing to Say! If you don’t make it right, there will be no cash.