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Suppressors My Thunderbeast -- EXPLODED!!
- Thread starter PSYOPS
- Start date
Kudos to TBAC for the good CS (and discount for the month!), I anxiously await my 22L!
I have quite a lot of experience working with Titanium; when I see a weld failure in that material, my *FIRST* thought is oxidation embrittlement. Titanium is a marvelous material, but is not without it's tradeoffs. It is wildly reactive with oxygen over ~850º, which is way, way lower than it's melting temperature. Conventional methods of providing welding shielding gas are absolutely not sufficient with Titanium, as *any* oxygen present while Ti is being welded will wreck the weld. Worse, is while a bit of weld oxidation in steel will weaken the weld and look ugly, Ti is extremely weakened.
It is extremely tough to create a "textbook" picture-perfect weld, with no oxidation whatsoever. There is a TON of room for error, and even a little error can wreck the weld.
It seems likely the muzzle pressure's created by a 16" bbl 338LM had a lot to do with it as well.
I write this in pure speculation by the way...no bashing of TBAC intended whatsoever, just continuing the conversation with some technical detail. TBAC's reputation speaks for itself, so obviously they don't have a "problem" welding Titanium. I'm just pointing out it is a very difficult thing to do perfectly - which TBAC seems to do a fine job of despite the difficulty.
I have quite a lot of experience working with Titanium; when I see a weld failure in that material, my *FIRST* thought is oxidation embrittlement. Titanium is a marvelous material, but is not without it's tradeoffs. It is wildly reactive with oxygen over ~850º, which is way, way lower than it's melting temperature. Conventional methods of providing welding shielding gas are absolutely not sufficient with Titanium, as *any* oxygen present while Ti is being welded will wreck the weld. Worse, is while a bit of weld oxidation in steel will weaken the weld and look ugly, Ti is extremely weakened.
It is extremely tough to create a "textbook" picture-perfect weld, with no oxidation whatsoever. There is a TON of room for error, and even a little error can wreck the weld.
It seems likely the muzzle pressure's created by a 16" bbl 338LM had a lot to do with it as well.
I write this in pure speculation by the way...no bashing of TBAC intended whatsoever, just continuing the conversation with some technical detail. TBAC's reputation speaks for itself, so obviously they don't have a "problem" welding Titanium. I'm just pointing out it is a very difficult thing to do perfectly - which TBAC seems to do a fine job of despite the difficulty.
Cool... Now I can tell my wife I need ANOTHER TBAC back up can to the back up can, just in case. 
Things always come together.
Things always come together.
tagging to keep up.
zak - do you think it would be helpful to post "max" pressure recommendations or minimum barrel length to help people avoid this in the future?
zak - do you think it would be helpful to post "max" pressure recommendations or minimum barrel length to help people avoid this in the future?
Psyops did look the day that it happened and walked out to the 762 yard target. IT sounds like the baffles must not be inline with the target. A wider search will take some time.
I also shoot at Zia, and it is a busy range. He could drive out to the range (1+ hour round trip), only to find out the range is in use. I think the problem is blocking out several hours to go down there, then wait until people aren't using the range, during daylight hours. Of course work and other things make an impromptu several hour trip to the range, a big hassle.
You'd think it would be easy, but there is a ton of sagebrush and weeds between the firing line and my intended target of 762 yards.
I'll probably never find it!
Talked with Amanda on Monday and she got me a return label within 5 minutes. My suppressor "remains" should have arrived yesterday, so I will call up there tomorrow and see if anybody has had a chance to look at it.
I'm pretty certain that TBAC will take care of me. I guess as others here have stated, TBAC may want to post some guidelines for ding-dongs like me. Ya know.....a 16" 338LM barrel and a suppressor = BOOM!!!!!
Someone had a can blow off at Steel Safari this year (it was not a TBAC!), it went off a cliff into bushes and trees in a wash 100+ feet down and we were able to find it. Of course, we were able to do it after the shooting for the day was over, with about 8 guys and someone directing from the shoot position.
We're going to take care of PSYOPS in any case, but it would really help figure out what happened if we had the extra pieces.
We will be adding a minimum suggested barrel length for some of the magnum cartridges.
We're going to take care of PSYOPS in any case, but it would really help figure out what happened if we had the extra pieces.
We will be adding a minimum suggested barrel length for some of the magnum cartridges.
You sure you weren't just trying to make the most expensive 338lm powered golf ball launcher ever?
Glad the ATF rules right now allow repairs, hasn't always been that way!
Had no doubt that tbac would bend over backwards for you to fix it up.
Galaxy S3 on tapatalk
Glad the ATF rules right now allow repairs, hasn't always been that way!
Had no doubt that tbac would bend over backwards for you to fix it up.
Galaxy S3 on tapatalk
I shot that range during the Score High match. This range is huge and finding those parts is going to be like looking for a needle in a haystack. Glad to hear that Zak is taking care of you
Brush would make it hard I agree. But still gather up some folks and walk it out, sounds like the parts are needed for failure analysis.
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Life is a big hassle, we make time for what we want too make time for.
I have never been to a range where if you gathered everyone up explained what you needed that they would not help out in a quick search and find mission especially if it involves a $1,800 suppressor part.
Well quit telling everyone else what they ought to be doing. You come on out and search for it. I'll buy the first round.
PSY.,
Take with you some beer's cases at the range_ Recruit some people around there_ Every one of yours must keep the next other by the hand_
(I'm not jokin'nor is a gay parade training advise)_ making this hand-chain of people, horizontal respect to your last shootin'trajectory, the chain will walk starting from the shooter's stand to the target,each one of yours looking on the ground for your lost baffle_ WHEN (not"if") the baffle WILL BE recovered, it's time for some round of beers_
That above HAS ever WORKED for us to find living,unexploded handgrenades throwned & left on the ground on training camp,therefore it WILL WORK for you too_
(quoting Zak Smith:"... I would expect you'll find the core still welded together btw.0 and 250yds from the shooting position,more or less in a straight line...")
GO !
(now you WILL own a beer to me,too)
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Well quit telling everyone else what they ought to be doing. You come on out and search for it. I'll buy the first round.
I would be the first one out there and I could even bring a group if I were not in Missouri.
Couple of calls and I would have a posse rounded up.
Just replying to your list of lazy excuses and lack of solutions. I bet if Zac said I cannot fix until I have all the parts to examine, that would change things a bit.
I think by his post he is being nice and diplomatic by saying he really needs the core. As willing as he is to take care of a problem that sounds like it is not his, the owner should feel the need to find the parts and the people commenting should back that with out providing excuses.
I guess I was raised different. How times have changed.
TBAC is top notch and that is why I own several of their cans.
I am not trying to attack you just the message that was going out.
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QuickLoad shows a muzzle pressure over 19,000 psi when using the load information he provided… I'm interested in more information on the load, did you ever have any pressure signs during the first 75 loads??? I show that it would be a compressed load (110.2%) as well a chamber pressure well over 74,000 psi...
Can you guys acquire AAC and fix my SDN-6 please? Great service Zac. I'm looking forward to my first TBAC suppressor next month.
I would be the first one out there and I could even bring a group if I were not in Missouri.
Couple of calls and I would have a posse rounded up.
Just replying to your list of lazy excuses and lack of solutions. I bet if Zac said I cannot fix until I have all the parts to examine, that would change things a bit.
I think by his post he is being nice and diplomatic by saying he really needs the core. As willing as he is to take care of a problem that sounds like it is not his, the owner should feel the need to find the parts and the people commenting should back that with out providing excuses.
I guess I was raised different. How times have changed.
TBAC is top notch and that is why I own several of their cans.
I am not trying to attack you just the message that was going out.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the thing was under 2 ft of sand already. We have had a lot of rain the past couple of weeks and half the damn firing line has been washed out and re-worked by a loader. Enough of us at Zia have looked for it that if it was easy to find, it would have been found.
Not saying it's a lost cause but it's not like no one has been looking.
No pressure signs. This is the same load I use for my DTA 26" 338LM barrel. Easy shooting and very manageable recoil. Out of the 16" barrel, I was getting 2405fps and out of my 26" barrel, around 2725fps.
Sounds like time for a metal detector. It could have been under sand from the very beginning or under a bush up against the stem. Had some tools bury themselves coming off the back of a truck and that is a lot less velocity than the innards of a suppressor turned grenade launcher.
Titanium is Paramagnetic... a metal detector would not do shit... other than maybe find a shit ton of lead on a gun range. Good idea though.
This. GPR or untrasound would work, but is not nearly worth what it would cost to do it.
Sirs,
once seen how attentive and motivated can be the searching effort of good-willing (enlisted) men to avoid kickin' an unexpl.frag, you would leavin'home all others electronic gizmos_ the drawback is that, once only SEEN the wanted item, the chain of searchers don'waste time celebrating: all of them are running away from the same point at the same full speed, but that wouldn't happen searchin'& finding the baffle, of course_
once seen how attentive and motivated can be the searching effort of good-willing (enlisted) men to avoid kickin' an unexpl.frag, you would leavin'home all others electronic gizmos_ the drawback is that, once only SEEN the wanted item, the chain of searchers don'waste time celebrating: all of them are running away from the same point at the same full speed, but that wouldn't happen searchin'& finding the baffle, of course_
Lead is diamagnetic. So is copper. Neither have a permanent magnetic moment and therefore have very little reaction to an external magnetic field. To add to your quote, a metal detector would not do shit [to find lead].
What industry uses GPR or ultrasound on this scale? I am familar with military applications - maybe you could talk some of the NM techies into a challenge... find some baffles!
Just an aside in this thread about the fact that TBAC is awesome service, which is great, but AAC also serviced my SDN-6 with about a month sent-returned time last December when I blew mine off the rifle. You might try calling again.
UPDATE**** Talked with Amanda yesterday at TBAC and she said they are starting to look it over. They will fix it, but she echoed Zak's response....."we'd like those baffles back!!"
Tomorrow the range is closed in the morning(for cleaning), so I'm heading over there and see if I can walk the range, again. Maybe I'll get lucky and find that needle in the hay stack.
More to follow......for sure.
Tomorrow the range is closed in the morning(for cleaning), so I'm heading over there and see if I can walk the range, again. Maybe I'll get lucky and find that needle in the hay stack.
More to follow......for sure.
Your statement is false. I have a metal detector (specialized for gold) and it picks up every single piece of lead.
I know the range and, with all the rain we've been getting lately, the weeds and brush are sure to make searching a challenge. Good luck.
You are partially correct in that my statement is false. Thank you for pointing that out, but just becasue your gold detector picks up every piece of lead, all metal detectors will not. Metal detectors and metal detecting is not simple. Several types of detectors exist specific to decting individual metalic properties of various metals. So, this is at least true: Lead is diamagnetic. So is copper. Neither have a permanent magnetic moment and therefore have very little reaction to an external magnetic field.
Then it gets more complicated. Very low frequency or induction balance metal detectors would not find lead because they work by creating magnetic fields which are disrupted by objects in the vicinity of the field. I believe beat-frequency oscillation type detectors work this way also. But as sure as I write this, somebody will counter with "mine wil..." I would guess an induction balance dectector hybriized with a Pulse induction or a beat-frequency oscillation detector will find lead, gold, iron, and whatever else might be "lost" out there. And certainly better phase shifting technology has produced higher resolution object discrimination. Its not surprising that your gold detector finds lead. Your detector is tuned to "see" the physio-chemical properties of gold... lead is very similar. A quick look at the periodic table of the elements shows lead just a few elements past gold, ie. lead has 82 protons while gold has 79 protons, but in the same row or period. As Menedleev, and others, realized back in 1860's, elements have periodic or recurring trends and those trends can be organized. An understanding of this organization can be quite useful while it has also been used as torture. While most folks despise chemistry in the classroom, a basic understanding can prove quite enlightening in everyday life. I did not believe much use in academic chemistry for a long time, but then I was tricked into teaching college chemistry, and I realized its potential in explaining everyday phenomena that cannot be seen. I have since forgotten most of what I taught and almost all of what I knew. I just want to shoot. But then I start thinking about PV=nRT (gas laws) and suppressors. I guess Zak thinks this night and day!
Nobody told my metal detectors (Whites XLT and Minelab Explorer) they aren't supposed to find lead. I have a huge collection of old musket balls, civil war Minnie balls and modern rounds. I guess they aren't very good at counting protons.
Excellent response Zak! I wish I had purchased from your company and saved myself the trouble of purchasing a very expensive Gemtech HVT paperweight.
Excellent response Zak! I wish I had purchased from your company and saved myself the trouble of purchasing a very expensive Gemtech HVT paperweight.
while I am not a chemist. there is a reason that they are called metal detectors and not iron detectors. According to White's web site they can detect any object that conducts electricity. While copper, lead, gold, silver, titanium, aluminum, brass are not magnetic you can induce an electric current in them with a magnetic field.
How do you think this works. MagnetoSpeed
How do you think this works. MagnetoSpeed
Well...... If you were bored... and had a buddy at the college/university near you that say works in the Geology Department... you could possibly barrow a Ground/Sonar/Radar. It would take some time to run the area... but you might be REAL surprised in what you find...
NOTE... YES... I have used one... but the reason was for LEO and we were looking/finding a dead body that was buried.
Just an idea
Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.)
NOTE... YES... I have used one... but the reason was for LEO and we were looking/finding a dead body that was buried.
Just an idea
Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.)
I'm more interested in finding the baffles - I already knew TBAC had your back. The saga continues... lol
UPDATE**** Just got off the phone with Zak and my can has been repaired and is on it's way back to me in Albuquerque.
Zak's advice to me was, NOT to shoot a 16"338LM with a can!!! We discussed barrel lengths and calibers and the minimum lengths for safe use of operation. Disclosure-- if wanting specific information about calibers and lengths, please call TBAC and discuss. My minimum barrel length will now be at least 22" (to be on the safe side of things).
With a 16" barrel, only 95% of the powder was being consumed in the barrel, leaving 5% to be consumed inside the suppressor and leaving the suppressor. This created an explosive combination of events. Take it from me, NOT recommended.
Now.....the search continues for those baffles. They should look like little metal cones. Anybody at Zia that finds these cones, please contact me through Snipers Hide and I'll take care of you.
A big thanks to TBAC for taking care of my situation quickly and very, very nicely! They went above and beyond. I was a major contributor to the malfunction of this can, but they fixed it and did it VERY quickly. Now THAT'S, customer service!
Lesson learned: short barrels and cans = BOOM!
I will post pics as soon as we find those baffles!
Zak's advice to me was, NOT to shoot a 16"338LM with a can!!! We discussed barrel lengths and calibers and the minimum lengths for safe use of operation. Disclosure-- if wanting specific information about calibers and lengths, please call TBAC and discuss. My minimum barrel length will now be at least 22" (to be on the safe side of things).
With a 16" barrel, only 95% of the powder was being consumed in the barrel, leaving 5% to be consumed inside the suppressor and leaving the suppressor. This created an explosive combination of events. Take it from me, NOT recommended.
Now.....the search continues for those baffles. They should look like little metal cones. Anybody at Zia that finds these cones, please contact me through Snipers Hide and I'll take care of you.
A big thanks to TBAC for taking care of my situation quickly and very, very nicely! They went above and beyond. I was a major contributor to the malfunction of this can, but they fixed it and did it VERY quickly. Now THAT'S, customer service!
Lesson learned: short barrels and cans = BOOM!
I will post pics as soon as we find those baffles!
Good to hear its been take care of by TBAC, never thought for a second they would not.
Get someone w/a metal detector out on that range to help find those parts.
Get someone w/a metal detector out on that range to help find those parts.
Well great, there goes my plans for a one off suppressed 10.5" 338 SBR.
Glad your getting it back so fast. Good on TBAC.
Hey don't let me deter you.....give it a go.
I got out to Zia, the range where Psyops baffles lie (unless someone already found them and disposed of them). I was able to search for about 30 minutes during cease fires.
The first ~100 yards of his shot path are easy to search. It is flat dirt and dirt berms. This is what most of the rest of the 660 yards looks like.
Psyops, I , and several others have been searching. I focused today on the 100-250 yard distance in the area that the picture was taken. No luck so far.
The first ~100 yards of his shot path are easy to search. It is flat dirt and dirt berms. This is what most of the rest of the 660 yards looks like.
Psyops, I , and several others have been searching. I focused today on the 100-250 yard distance in the area that the picture was taken. No luck so far.
Thanks, Abq-D !!
And thanks for that pic!
Guys, our range is a desert waste-land. It's freakin' Thunderdome-type desert........but I believe, we will find it one day. Search on, brothers!
Thanks to all who have searched! Very much appreciated.
UPDATE*** Today, I got my re-built can back! That was fast!
I'm sure it will shoot as great as it did before. Still no baffles. One day I will find those things. Maybe when fall comes and things turn more brown and dry up. I WILL find them!
Thanks for everyone that has followed this so far......now go buy a TBAC suppressor and go shoot!
I'm sure it will shoot as great as it did before. Still no baffles. One day I will find those things. Maybe when fall comes and things turn more brown and dry up. I WILL find them!
Thanks for everyone that has followed this so far......now go buy a TBAC suppressor and go shoot!
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