Natural Point of aim question

[Greg Langelius *]

I concur with Sterling. All this record keeping business, the addition of the check this, average that, rigmarole is (IMHO) far more of a distraction than a help. If you can find this process in a book somewhere, let me know where to find it, it's new to me. I go to the range to perfect my marksmanship, not my accounting. You would do as well or better with a coach than a spreadsheet.

You will never, ever, see me doing such things. My record keeping system consists of targets annotated with pertinent info pertaining to rifle, environment, and ammo specs. What you need to know can be quickly gleaned using the Mark I eyeball and a Dial Caliper. The target never misspeaks.

To learn how to shoot, shoot. I mention a coach, but that can be as simple as teaming up with a shooting partner and taking turns observing and advising each other. I am not talking about the blind leading the blind; but rather, two peers sharing the study and practice processes together.

You read and discuss the basic info, working out a consensus about what is being conveyed. Then, you put it into practice, taking turns applying the knowledge as the other observes and suggests the rights and the wrongs being demonstrated.

When you think of yourself as an expert, you're probably wrong; I know I am. There's always something more to learn about the process and about oneself. Periodic reacquaintance with one's basic roots is an essential.

Greg

 

[wilecoyote]

...what progress should be seen at this point, that is not being seen? It might sound like an obvious question, but I find myself wondering .
[/QUOTE]
...the feeling of "peace", even muscular, immediately before and at the exact time of the shot_(if you're into guitars,about the Mark Knopfler expression when he plays..and his emission of voice goes witout effort...)

 

[Sterling Shooter]

All,
I realize it is difficult if not impossible to coach or correct my practice without seeing my attempts to build a position, but I do appreciate the words and I think they do help. I am far from discouraged and have no plan to be discouraged!
In earlier lives I taught myself to play piano and guitar and it took years to get good enough to be in a band and make money. And I taught myself enough math, my worst subject in high school, to make As and wound up majoring in math in College. So I am not afraid of tackling difficult tasks that take a lot of work. My parents (musicians) could act as my coaches when I was learning guitar and piano (though neither of them played guitar) but I had no coach for the math learning. I was on my own that time.

Perhaps I do not expect immediate improvement, my expectation is that improvement will come in batches of "punctuated equilibrium" at 1 or more points along the six month journey I think I set myself on with the NPA drill.
It would be great to have a coach, but I am in a rural area and they don't seem to be falling from the sky around here. I've had two candidates come out here, but perhaps it is too far from "civilization" .

I'm looking for "training" ... but most of the training looks too advanced ... like "long range precision shooting" classes that are a week long ... etc. not sure I'm seeing any "how to build a natural position" classes.
I did meet a guy recently who is an NRA High Power "master" and had a chat with him and he is the one who first told me to "count to 20" with the NPA checks, instead of the "two full breathing cycles" I had been doing. I'm trying to nudge him into the coach role, but real life intervenes and it hasn't happened yet.

So for now trying to do the best I can with what I have available.

==

If I fail an NPA check, I do not just point the rifle at the target. I do move my whole body. I move my feet usually to correct a left to right problem, they can "steer" my body to turn left or right. And I use my feet and elbows to adjust for "elevation" if my NPA check result is high or low. If this sounds right or wrong, please advise!
I do require myself to be "dead on" to the 5/16 inch dots I am aiming at. Even though the cheap scope I have on the .22LR is a mil dot and I can't actually see the black 5/16 inch dot if I am dead on, I can see the proportion of orange around the black dots that were my previous 3/4 inch aiming points. So if I see equal portions of orange around the center black dot of the reticle, I call it good. Sometimes I fail an NPA check by a larger margin (a inch or more) and sometimes by a small margin, less than a inch. But I try to be strict.

==

As to matching the conditions in the field ... one variable there is the elevations. In the field I am shooting mostly down hill. Whereas the living room floor is fairly level. Of the six aiming points I dry fire at in the living room, two of them are 18 inches off the floor, two are 12 inches off the floor and two are 4 inches off the floor. And they are 4 inches apart laterally. So I have to rebuild the position for each shot, but that seems to be good. But there is no position in the living room where I am aiming "down hill" as I do in the field.
I think the vision of the NPA is that, once you can build a good position, then it won't matter what crazy position you encounter in the field, you will be able to build a solid position to fit the circumstances and that vision sounds like the ideal goal, so I want to move towards that goal.


I think I understand that SS is essentially telling me to "check" my position before doing the 20 count. To build the position and "check it" with maybe a 2-4 second eye closing and then rebuild if not correct, and do that as many times as needed, to get it right, before doing the 20 count. I am not doing that, so doing that might change the reported results. So I will start doing that.

I might ask, what progress should be seen at this point, that is not being seen? It might sound like an obvious question, but I find myself wondering .

Are there other ways to measure myself that can be suggested?

==

Thanks for the help and attention!!!

20 count, what the hell is that? That may be how an unqualified coach has advised but such nonsense is at best a distraction. Using that sort of aid to development will eventually thwart possible wind strategies and other things important in timed and rapid fire events. Also, reading your last post, I am assuming you are shooting prone. So, when you say you are adjusting NPA with the feet and elbows that could be a reason NPA has become an ordeal for you. After planting non firing hand elbow it should stay there. Then lift body to move the belt buckle to get sight on target. Shoot at a proper target such as an NRA smallbore bullseye target correct for the distance you are shooting to, and do shoot groups on the single bull. Shooting 5 shot groups will help you see patterns which can reveal the cause/s of shooter error when you also plot both calls and shots in a data book. That's a facsimile of your target on and about which you record shots and conditions. At any rate, look at the big marksmanship picture instead of just focusing on NPA. This is because NPA is only one element of three that support a solid position and these elements must all be integrated into the actions required to execute the two firing tasks. Don't overthink it!

 

[wigwamitus]

as to the "20 count" ... I've heard two different ways to "check" NPA ... one way was close eyes and wait through two full breathing cycles ... the other was close eyes and count to 20 ... for me it is easier to count to 20. These weren't my ideas, so I'm not sure, but I would guess that we aren't supposed to do this forever, but more like these are "training wheels" that we do at first to make sure we have an NPA are aren't doing the "muscle" thing.

I've started doing three things differently:

Went back to "bones only" ... with both the .308 and the .22LR in dry firing. I can do it now. I can't get the wrist in a perfect position (can't twist it clockwise enough) due to previous injury, but I think I can get close enough. And it actually seems faster and easier than sling. Less moving parts.

Doing the "plant the non-firing elbow" thing and I also thinks that speeds things up and makes things easier. Another part that is not moving. This seems obvious in hindsight. One of those details that would have/should've been caught by the on site coach if their was one!

And printed out the 5 step "position assumption" process to put beside me. I thought I'd done that earlier but it disappeared. So now it has reappeared. And the three elements are: muscular reelaxation, NPA and bone/artifical support.

... the NRA targets will take longer to get ...

 

[Angmo]

Muscling a rifle around gives you a NAA. Natural Area of Aim. That's not what you want.

Natural Point of Aim - the rifle should not move. Prone, my toes go to work fine tuning the position. Once your major bones are set in building a solid position,, just small minute adjustments should be needed.

 

[0311 Hesco]

I'm sure there is someone nearby you that would be willing to come out and shoot with you and point out what you might be doing wrong. I agree with Sterling, you are def over thinking this. Get the 5 shot group down first. That, like he said will tell you gobs of info. I think that the dot drill you are doing is a great drill, however, that is one or two rungs up. Work on the basics. NPA is only one fundamental. When I teach my little Young Marines to shoot, rarely is their NPA an issue. I think this is because they are more excited/worried/distracted by getting to squeeze a trigger. My point with this, and I'm not trying to be a jerk, is that NPA is simple.

I don't see a need to keep track of how many times you check NPA. You either have it or don't and at our level of shooting, rarely will you ever get into a position and only have to check it the same amount of times per shot. Just get there. While you are building the position, start slowing and deepening your breaths and oxygenate your body. Breathing is where my mind goes. Have you heard of PMI? Positive Mental Image? We were taught this on the range at Parris Island. Think of something you really enjoy, or a person you really love, etc. and keep your mind on that same PMI every time while you are building your position. I believe this is intended to focus those of us that are scrambled eggs upstairs, kinda slow the mind.

There is a really good book out there called With Winning in Mind. An Olympic shooter talks with a bunch of medalists about their routines and what it takes to win. Very good read. I'd recommend checking it out; written by Lanny Bassham.

 

[wigwamitus]

I can't shoot prone or even sitting on my land any more (well not if I want to shoot at the targets I have setup) ... so having to switch to standing "tripod" and learn to build a solid position with that support. Note this "tripod" is not like a .50 cal tripod, this one is very light, maybe less than 1 pound, more like a bog stick with three legs. You rest the rifle on it and don't push on it or you will tip it over. But with the devices I'm putting on the front of the rifle trying to use sling would be tougher I think too much weight. Anyway, here goes. This is the second attempt you use these night vision devices.

2014-06-07
2200-23
60F
Wind Nil

Environment: Three quarter moon, 80% obscured by cloud. No wind.

Goal: Fire 7.62 with CO-LR NVD and Thermal with purpose of validating match to day zero for both devices.

Equipment: PVS-14 for navigation, 7.62 rifle with LP 3-18x H58 scope. CO-LR NVD, Thermal clip-on. Tripod. 10 rounds 175gr. 930 fps.

Activity: Drove out to target area and replaced target. When to 109yd FP and fired 5rds with CO-LR. Four rounds were grouped fairly well all were a bit low. With no wind my wobble was reduced a bit. I was using NPA checks for each round. Walked down to target with PVS-14 adjusted focus several times to get used to that. Took target pic and headed back to FP.



Switched CO-lR off and attached Thermal clip-on and got up on the tripod.

I was sighting in when I saw a four legged mamamal walking along the top of the berm, I was white hot on the thermal, so the creature was hot. Based on size comparison to my target (the creature walked right above my target) I would say it was 3-4 feet long. It moved like a predator, steady clip. I put my sights on it to keep it in my picture. I had it in my sights for more than 10 but less than 20 seconds. I could not positively ID the creature as either a Coyote or a Bobcat. If I had to guess, I would guess Bobcat based on the headshape, but I've never seen either through a thermal device, so not exactly sure what they look like on thermal.
I then fired my 5 rounds and drove buggy (using PVS-14) to taret and took pic. Then proceeded to RTB. ON the way back I saw the rear end of a creature heading into the woods at a run (as it heard me comming) it had a tail sticking up in the air at about a 45 degree angle behind it and the tail was thick and bushy across its entire length. It disappeared into the woods and I did not see it again.

When on the thermal I could not see the paper or the dots, only the fiber board the paper was attached to. I was trying to aim at the center of the upper right quadrant of the board, which I thought would be the center of the paper. So from that perspective the thermal rounds "missed" ... but they hit where the rifle was aimed and the group isn't too bad considering I have to cycle the charging handle after each round and then reaim.



So, I'm happy with the results from tonight. The shots were not too wild and the equipment worked and I saw my first predetor in through the thermal and from the buggy with the PVS-14.

For purposes of scale those black tape sqaures are 2 inch across.

==
Later: After looking at pictures of Bobcat and Coyote tails, I switching to thinking what I saw was a Coyote. Coyote tails are bigger and bushier, like the one I saw.

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-06-12
1600-1630
70F
5 MPH MW

Activity: Finally found a spot where I could shoot at 25yds, per urging. This was with the 5.56, with EoTech from standing tripod.



The groups were 3 rds each fired from left to right, group sizes (in inches) were:

#1 - 7/8
#2 - 5/8
#3 - 4/8
#4 - 4/8

The first group was fired with non-firing hand on tripod and thumb against rifle. This is how I normally shoot from the tripod, but then I remembered the new idea and the second three groups were fired with non-firing hand on top of rifle (in front of EoTech) pushing down and to the rear. I can't do that in most cases, because typically the rifles have, scopes or clipons up there, but with the EoTech only on the top rail, it can be done.

I'm preparing for my first ever (civilian) training class next Saturday. We will be using 5.56 with sling.

 

[wigwamitus]

Due to the conditions on my land, I'm shooting mostly standing position these days. Trying to shoot without tripod. Where is an efficient statement of how to build a solid standing position? I'm googling around for one.
Thanks,
W.

 

[wigwamitus]

So far, it seems like there is a lot of variation of the "presented wisdom". I think "it depends" is part of the answer, with the weight, length and recoil of the rifle being some of the variables.

Achieving "balance" seems to be a constant. By achieving this "balance" perhaps we can reduce the "wobble" which is a characteristic of my attempts. Having the non-firing arm at a distance from the body which doesn't put too much strain on the arm, but doesn't leave too much unsupported weight forward of the hand.

5.56 AR rifles can be held higher, out of the pocket, due to the absence of recoil and this enables a more verticle head position. I'm dry frying right now with my SMLE .303B and it is a different length, weight profile than a 5.56 AR. I'm aiming at a 2x2 inch paper 30 feet away and trying to hold the aim on that paper in a relaxed manner while squeezing the trigger. I think I'm achieving more of that "balance" stuff than I thought possible, because I'm able to hold on that spot. Holding on a much smaller spot would still be tough.

Oh, one video said face the target with feet apart at shoulder distance. That didn't make to much sense, facing the target. I'm sure the recoil of a .308 or larger would knock me back with that stance. Fortunately, other pundits say the opposite, feet apart with body 90 degrees off the target with line from target running through both feet. That makes more sense from a recoil management perspective.

I see some people leaning back away from the target, but the guy who said bend knees slightly and lean a bit forward made more sense. But to be fair, more of the people leaning back were holding .22LR ...

More reading and practicing to go!

 

[Ledzep]

I burned through 25 rounds today trying to figure it out. I get NPA-- until recently I was a Rifleman in the USMC, and had company high rifle score (341/350). With a sling and rifle, I get it and can hold pretty damn steady and pop right back on target.

Now... This bipod and bag routine is a different story. I was trying to do recoil management. I watched several youtubes before heading out and attempted to recreate the effect. The goal is that the rifle recoils straight back, allowing me to maintain view through the scope throughout the recoil pulse and keep eyes on the target, or at least pop back to the target. I could not get it to work. I consistently bounced 40-50 mils left and the reticle was canted 10-15 degrees to the right when my body is straight behind the rifle. I tried placing the stock in several places on my shoulder to no avail. Beats me... What's really busting my balls is that I tried lying behind the rifle at various different angles. 5 shots, 1st my body went to ~150*-- 40-50 mils left and canted, 2nd I was at 180*-- 40-50 mils left and canted, 3rd ~210*-- 20 mils left and canted, 4th @ ~240* (like if I was prone w/sling) 5 mils left and no cant (wtf?), 5th shot was at 270 degrees, uncomfortably, and after firing the rifle bounced right about 20-30 mils. My group was 1/2" tall and just shy of 1" wide, 100yd.

I'm not sure what the deal is. Best thing I can come up with is stock fit. Maybe I was putting too much pressure on the upper part of the stock with my face, that would cause the cant, but I still don't get the 40-50 mil jump to the left.

 

[wigwamitus]

What type of rifle are you shooting?

 

[Ledzep]

Remington 700 in a Manners MCS-T. ~12lbs.

 

[wigwamitus]

Remington 700 in a Manners MCS-T. ~12lbs.

So you're saying a bolt gun is bouncing to the left consistently? Amazing!

I've seen this type of effect with my semi-auto ... which is why I started turning off the gas when I shoot at longer ranges ... turning it into a heavy bolt gun ... but I don't get that with my .308WIN bolt gun. Definitely sounds like recoil management. You might want to start your own thread on this issue ... my thread might have gotten burned out

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-06-28
2200-2330
70F

Fired at NRA 50 yards SB targets, standing unsupported 25yds with EOtech and PVS-14 weapons mount. Top 4 targets are with .22LR upper on UT Arms lower. Got 90 points out of 120. Having feed problems which are causing unintended bump fires (on left and right most targets respectively). The bolt release assembly is loose and might need replacing. But PVS-14 with EoTech in NV mode works. This is the first time I'd tried that. I couldn't try ir laser on the rifle as the battery was dead. That on/off switch is too easy to bump and will have to be taped. ON the NRA 50 yd SB targets, the black circles are about 3.75 inches across.



The bottom left 2 targets are m1911 with CT IR grip laster, 10 yds. The laser is "blooming" and ideally should be filtered. FOr the pistol, the PVS-14 is on the helmet mount.

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-06-29
0930-1030
80F
5 mph SE

Environment: Very humid, sweat rolling off ... water accumulating on the equipment ... but not actually raining ... just lots of moisture in the air. Feels more like Florida than Kanasas.

Equipment: Plinker Arms .22LR upper on UT Arms lower. EoTech, with 3x magnifier. PVS-14 weapons mounted with 3x magnifier. Federal AM22 40gr 1200fps. I got 500rds of subsonic Eley match, but while I'm learning this new gear, I'm going to keep shooting the AM22.



Activity: Fired upper row of 4 targets, 3 rds each at twilight with EoTech, 3x magnifier, 25 yds, standing unsupported. Then waited a bit fired lower 4 targets, 3 rds each at night with PVS-14 and 3x magnifier weapons mounted standing unsupported.
I am using the "tac" style standing unsupported position as taught in the class I took last week. You are facing directly at the target, feet side by side, shoulder distance apart, feet at about 30 degree angle, knees bents, leaning forward. I was using "high ready" which meant before I fired I had the target in view over the top of the EoTech. When I gave myself the command to fire, I raised the weapon up to my right eye until I could see the bull meet the reticle, then I fired the three rounds. This is not the way I would do it at longer range, in fact opposite in many ways. But I'm trying to practice what I was taught and there are reasons for the differences that make sense.
On the EoTech, as it gets darker, I crank the illumination intensity lower and lower. Then when going into NV mode with the PVS-14, I crank the intensity back up again.

Using "Army" scoring, from left to right, the top sequence was, 30, 27, 27, 28. In "Army" scoring, the center of the bullet hole must be inside the ring.

The bottom sequence scores were 27, 28, 27, 26.



I found "cheating" by using the magnifiers improves the results. Last weekend at the class, I wore my prescription lens. I almost never wear my "glasses" when I shoot, I wear goggles, but I guess it helps with that "olde man syndrome" OMS disease I picked up along the way .