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Re: natural point of aim?
First, point the rifle at the target, then stand up and lay yourself straight behind the rifle so your body is pointed to the rifle pointed at the target.
Next to check your gross adjustment - natural point of aim, have the crosshairs on the target and close your eyes. Go through a couple of breathing cycles then open your eyes. The crosshairs should remain on target. Adjust your body and rifle as one to correct this, do not muscle to the target.
To fine tune your natural point of aim, dryfire to make sure the reticle doesn't "jump" or shift off the target. When the hammer drops the click may correspond to a shift of the reticle. This can be further adjusted out.
remember a little goes a long way.
First, point the rifle at the target, then stand up and lay yourself straight behind the rifle so your body is pointed to the rifle pointed at the target.
Next to check your gross adjustment - natural point of aim, have the crosshairs on the target and close your eyes. Go through a couple of breathing cycles then open your eyes. The crosshairs should remain on target. Adjust your body and rifle as one to correct this, do not muscle to the target.
To fine tune your natural point of aim, dryfire to make sure the reticle doesn't "jump" or shift off the target. When the hammer drops the click may correspond to a shift of the reticle. This can be further adjusted out.
remember a little goes a long way.
Re: natural point of aim?
Get a muscularly relaxed position with good sight alignment; and, then adjust your position to the target/sight picture you're seeking. For the most part, you'll be steering the rifle with your butt, rather than steering with the non-firing arm/hand.
Get a muscularly relaxed position with good sight alignment; and, then adjust your position to the target/sight picture you're seeking. For the most part, you'll be steering the rifle with your butt, rather than steering with the non-firing arm/hand.
Re: natural point of aim?
LowLight, thank you for your response. I used your bootstring method to get my rem 700 bolt stripped to check for debrit once. Thanks for sharing your experience with the newbys.
LowLight, thank you for your response. I used your bootstring method to get my rem 700 bolt stripped to check for debrit once. Thanks for sharing your experience with the newbys.
Re: natural point of aim?
When I have this point of aim correct, will the rifle tend to jump left or right less when I fire it? I shot some this week and I was able to see hits better through the scope, but I had to quickly get back in the scope on a few to catch them at 600 yrds.
When I have this point of aim correct, will the rifle tend to jump left or right less when I fire it? I shot some this week and I was able to see hits better through the scope, but I had to quickly get back in the scope on a few to catch them at 600 yrds.
Re: natural point of aim?
Newby here with a possibly stupid question. How close should your NPA be. Should I be right on or within 1 or 2 moa? Feels like I'm always steering the butt with my left hand after I settle down behind the rifle. Just looking for ways to improve, thanks.
Newby here with a possibly stupid question. How close should your NPA be. Should I be right on or within 1 or 2 moa? Feels like I'm always steering the butt with my left hand after I settle down behind the rifle. Just looking for ways to improve, thanks.
Re: natural point of aim?
You should be right on, as if you were at 100 yards looking at a 1" dot you should be quartering the dot into 4 equal parts. You know you have it fine tuned when you dry fire and the reticle doesn't move when the hammer hits the firing pin. If it's off you'll see the reticle jump off to the side and stay. You then need to fine tune your whole body so the reticle stays on target when dry firing.
The rifle jumping to the side is a result of your position. Mainly you are not lined up straight with the rifle but kicked off the side. What happens is people are off to the side which is fine for a single shot, but corrupts the follow up shot and causes the rifle to jump off target. If you line up straight, adjust your NPA and drive the rifle through recoil with a good follow through you should see your impacts, and the further out you shoot the easier this will be. The Zen moment in your shooting life will be to see your own impacts at 100 yards, then you snatched the pebble from the masters hand.
To drive straight, you want forward pressure on the buttstock to comes from - not so much the shoulder but the core of your body. More so your waist... and it should be dead weight, not forced pressure.
The key to building a good position and practice dry firing as if you life depended on every shot, it needs to be perfect to build those strong and proper neural pathways.
You should be right on, as if you were at 100 yards looking at a 1" dot you should be quartering the dot into 4 equal parts. You know you have it fine tuned when you dry fire and the reticle doesn't move when the hammer hits the firing pin. If it's off you'll see the reticle jump off to the side and stay. You then need to fine tune your whole body so the reticle stays on target when dry firing.
The rifle jumping to the side is a result of your position. Mainly you are not lined up straight with the rifle but kicked off the side. What happens is people are off to the side which is fine for a single shot, but corrupts the follow up shot and causes the rifle to jump off target. If you line up straight, adjust your NPA and drive the rifle through recoil with a good follow through you should see your impacts, and the further out you shoot the easier this will be. The Zen moment in your shooting life will be to see your own impacts at 100 yards, then you snatched the pebble from the masters hand.
To drive straight, you want forward pressure on the buttstock to comes from - not so much the shoulder but the core of your body. More so your waist... and it should be dead weight, not forced pressure.
The key to building a good position and practice dry firing as if you life depended on every shot, it needs to be perfect to build those strong and proper neural pathways.
Re: natural point of aim?
Thanks for the quick responses Lowlight and Graham. Looks like I need to practice setting up and dry firing.
Thanks for the quick responses Lowlight and Graham. Looks like I need to practice setting up and dry firing.
Re: natural point of aim?
Years ago I would take my video camera with me and set it high on the tripod and looking down so I could see mistakes I would make in position etc. When I would shoot a 5 shot string I would get back up and view the video and often find I was forcing that last little bit of movement. Once I cured that my shooting improved greatly. Not just shooting more bulls but I would have fewer fliers and groups would tighten up beyond what I thought I was capable of doing. I found that many of the firearms I thought wouldn't shoot for sh*t was really just my fault. One last bit of advice is treat EVERY shot like your life depends on it, getting lazy when you shoot will often give you bad habits like poor trigger pull, bad breathing, and make poor habits even worse. Lay of the coffee and energy drinks before you go out to can really make you shoot better. I am not at the god like status of many shooters on this site like Frank
but when I do my part I shoot very well and now have many of my shooting buddies ask me for help. It feels like Christmas when that happens, but shooting to me is much more than just a hobby its more like an obsession I can't afford.
Years ago I would take my video camera with me and set it high on the tripod and looking down so I could see mistakes I would make in position etc. When I would shoot a 5 shot string I would get back up and view the video and often find I was forcing that last little bit of movement. Once I cured that my shooting improved greatly. Not just shooting more bulls but I would have fewer fliers and groups would tighten up beyond what I thought I was capable of doing. I found that many of the firearms I thought wouldn't shoot for sh*t was really just my fault. One last bit of advice is treat EVERY shot like your life depends on it, getting lazy when you shoot will often give you bad habits like poor trigger pull, bad breathing, and make poor habits even worse. Lay of the coffee and energy drinks before you go out to can really make you shoot better. I am not at the god like status of many shooters on this site like Frank
Re: natural point of aim?
PS... drink all the coffee and Energy drinks you want. If you drink coffee every morning before work, at work, and follow up with an energy drink in the afternoon, then you decide on Saturday to shoot and "not' have any coffee or Red Bull, you'll have a bigger issue than if you drink it.
it's an old wives tale not to drink coffee... tell a guy who smokes that on the morning when he going to shoot he can't have a cigarette until he is done shooting. How relaxed do you think he will be ?
PS... drink all the coffee and Energy drinks you want. If you drink coffee every morning before work, at work, and follow up with an energy drink in the afternoon, then you decide on Saturday to shoot and "not' have any coffee or Red Bull, you'll have a bigger issue than if you drink it.
it's an old wives tale not to drink coffee... tell a guy who smokes that on the morning when he going to shoot he can't have a cigarette until he is done shooting. How relaxed do you think he will be ?
Re: natural point of aim?
here I shot this video just for you a few weeks ago:
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/25JggjRMkCo"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/25JggjRMkCo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
here I shot this video just for you a few weeks ago:
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/25JggjRMkCo"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/25JggjRMkCo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
Re: natural point of aim?
On smoking: I sometimes shoot with a Sergeant who was for years on the Marine Corps pistol team. He just quit smoking this year, and I think one of his 50 yard hardball records still stands. He used to go to the line with a cigarette in his mouth. Go figure.
On smoking: I sometimes shoot with a Sergeant who was for years on the Marine Corps pistol team. He just quit smoking this year, and I think one of his 50 yard hardball records still stands. He used to go to the line with a cigarette in his mouth. Go figure.
Re: natural point of aim?
The best is Valium and Diazepam, it was even a "bonus" in a couple of the video games to steady your shot... you could power up when you found the hidden stash.
I usually take a handful of the stuff to counteract all the coffee and energy drinks I have...
The best is Valium and Diazepam, it was even a "bonus" in a couple of the video games to steady your shot... you could power up when you found the hidden stash.
I usually take a handful of the stuff to counteract all the coffee and energy drinks I have...
Re: natural point of aim?
With a good NPOA and consistant muscular relaxation your recoil pattern will be consistant and the sights will return to the target after recoil. The direction of recoil doesn't matter much as consistant recovery. Very good shooters will take recoil pattern into account when calling a shot.
With a good NPOA and consistant muscular relaxation your recoil pattern will be consistant and the sights will return to the target after recoil. The direction of recoil doesn't matter much as consistant recovery. Very good shooters will take recoil pattern into account when calling a shot.
Re: natural point of aim?
Center fire recoil tends to produce an angular motion due to the torque on the rifle and shooter by the heavy spinning bullet. Some top level rimfire shooters strive for a perfectly vertical recoil impulse as an indication of proper position and pressure on the rifle. My rimfire prone work tends to support the vertical movement theory as 10 o'clock shots out of the ten ring tend to show a recoil impulse in this direction.
NPA can be summed up as - where your bullets want to go, and even if you try to muscle them elsewhere, the shots will migrate toward the true NPA. Get it right and ride it or get it wrong and fight it - your choice.
Center fire recoil tends to produce an angular motion due to the torque on the rifle and shooter by the heavy spinning bullet. Some top level rimfire shooters strive for a perfectly vertical recoil impulse as an indication of proper position and pressure on the rifle. My rimfire prone work tends to support the vertical movement theory as 10 o'clock shots out of the ten ring tend to show a recoil impulse in this direction.
NPA can be summed up as - where your bullets want to go, and even if you try to muscle them elsewhere, the shots will migrate toward the true NPA. Get it right and ride it or get it wrong and fight it - your choice.
Re: natural point of aim?
Somehow, I just knew what I would find here when I opened this thread...Aish!
Somehow, I just knew what I would find here when I opened this thread...Aish!
Re: natural point of aim?
All,
Everybody here, it appears, even, the OP, understands the importance for adjusting NPA to target; yet, perhaps, the OP would do even better realizing NPA is just one element of a steady position; and, unless all of those elements, as well as the factors of a steady position are honored, results will still be less than what's possible.
It's pretty easy to get a sight picture which is so vice like as to lull one into believing a round right-in-there is forthcoming; however, that's only going to happen if the shooter has consistent control of the rifle from the time the trigger is pulled to bullet exit.
This control will be realized with follow-through from a position which has a consistent: stock-weld, butt to shoulder, elbow placement, grip, and non-firing hand on the forend.
Of course, if the shooter is using a bipod, some technique to get recoil within an appointed limit will need to be mustered, since the non firing hand may not be available for that role.
BTW, I think the reason most folks do not shoot fractional MOA is that they simply are not shooting with a complete understanding, or recognition of how important it is to perfect the position and maintain it until recoil subsides.
If all shooters had just a few minutes of elementary training in the principles of marksmanship, and the elements and factors of a steady position, they'd realize most of the money they're inclined to spend for equipment to get the job done could be saved, as most any rifle out there today, that's not broken, will always shoot a bullet in the direction the gun's pointed.
All,
Everybody here, it appears, even, the OP, understands the importance for adjusting NPA to target; yet, perhaps, the OP would do even better realizing NPA is just one element of a steady position; and, unless all of those elements, as well as the factors of a steady position are honored, results will still be less than what's possible.
It's pretty easy to get a sight picture which is so vice like as to lull one into believing a round right-in-there is forthcoming; however, that's only going to happen if the shooter has consistent control of the rifle from the time the trigger is pulled to bullet exit.
This control will be realized with follow-through from a position which has a consistent: stock-weld, butt to shoulder, elbow placement, grip, and non-firing hand on the forend.
Of course, if the shooter is using a bipod, some technique to get recoil within an appointed limit will need to be mustered, since the non firing hand may not be available for that role.
BTW, I think the reason most folks do not shoot fractional MOA is that they simply are not shooting with a complete understanding, or recognition of how important it is to perfect the position and maintain it until recoil subsides.
If all shooters had just a few minutes of elementary training in the principles of marksmanship, and the elements and factors of a steady position, they'd realize most of the money they're inclined to spend for equipment to get the job done could be saved, as most any rifle out there today, that's not broken, will always shoot a bullet in the direction the gun's pointed.
Re: natural point of aim?
Sterling Shooter, all is very true. I don't figure that I own a firearm that doesn't shoot better than me. I have not had any tech training and that has hindered me for sure. I read all I can to try to figure it out the best I can with what I have . Thank you for your help.
Sterling Shooter, all is very true. I don't figure that I own a firearm that doesn't shoot better than me. I have not had any tech training and that has hindered me for sure. I read all I can to try to figure it out the best I can with what I have . Thank you for your help.
Re: natural point of aim?
Lowlight thanks for posting those tips..I worked some dry firing between live rounds at my last outing at 100..sure enough I could see me reticle hop a tad to the left each time.
Lowlight thanks for posting those tips..I worked some dry firing between live rounds at my last outing at 100..sure enough I could see me reticle hop a tad to the left each time.
Re: natural point of aim?
Natural point of aim is a shooting skill where the shooter minimizes the effects of body movement on the firearm's impact point. Along with proper stance, sight picture and trigger control, it forms the basis of marksmanship.
Natural point of aim is a shooting skill where the shooter minimizes the effects of body movement on the firearm's impact point. Along with proper stance, sight picture and trigger control, it forms the basis of marksmanship.
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get a muscularly relaxed position with good sight alignment; and, then adjust your position to the target/sight picture you're seeking. For the most part, you'll be steering the rifle with your butt, rather than steering with the non-firing arm/hand. </div></div>
Adding to my earlier post, for the most part, just by shouldering a rifle, the shooter's position will be somewhat relaxed and at the shooter's NPA. Thing is, the NPA must then be adjusted to point the rifle at the target, providing for the hold or sight picture the shooter is seeking. Too often, however, the desired sight picture comes as the rifle is being shouldered, and the shooter will simply disregard NPA adjustment.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get a muscularly relaxed position with good sight alignment; and, then adjust your position to the target/sight picture you're seeking. For the most part, you'll be steering the rifle with your butt, rather than steering with the non-firing arm/hand. </div></div>
Adding to my earlier post, for the most part, just by shouldering a rifle, the shooter's position will be somewhat relaxed and at the shooter's NPA. Thing is, the NPA must then be adjusted to point the rifle at the target, providing for the hold or sight picture the shooter is seeking. Too often, however, the desired sight picture comes as the rifle is being shouldered, and the shooter will simply disregard NPA adjustment.
Re: natural point of aim?
When you're working your way through the dot drill, are you moving your whole body? Or are you making fine adjustment by moving the rear bag?
When you're working your way through the dot drill, are you moving your whole body? Or are you making fine adjustment by moving the rear bag?
Re: natural point of aim?
The more I shoot, the more I appreciate my equipment; and most of it is basically factory original gear with only a few home gunsmithing tweaks like glassbedding, trigger adjustment, and load development. Where improvement is called for, the best place to start, for me, is with the shooter.
I had gone through the years confident in the belief that shooting is a skill upon which age has little bearing. While this is essentially true, it is not true when one adds infirmity to age. Such is my case, and things have been fairly challanging lately. I suppose I could take a dive and blame the fates, but that's not appealing, and it goes against my basic character as well.
In essence, it's added spice to my shooting by renewing the challenge. Every single factor that was true when I was coming up to speed originally is at least as true today; and that's really a pretty good reason to re-tackle the process with renewed gusto. I actually count myself lucky to have pretty conventional rifles which I can still use to bring my own performance along and still have some potential left to grow (back?) into.
Greg
The more I shoot, the more I appreciate my equipment; and most of it is basically factory original gear with only a few home gunsmithing tweaks like glassbedding, trigger adjustment, and load development. Where improvement is called for, the best place to start, for me, is with the shooter.
I had gone through the years confident in the belief that shooting is a skill upon which age has little bearing. While this is essentially true, it is not true when one adds infirmity to age. Such is my case, and things have been fairly challanging lately. I suppose I could take a dive and blame the fates, but that's not appealing, and it goes against my basic character as well.
In essence, it's added spice to my shooting by renewing the challenge. Every single factor that was true when I was coming up to speed originally is at least as true today; and that's really a pretty good reason to re-tackle the process with renewed gusto. I actually count myself lucky to have pretty conventional rifles which I can still use to bring my own performance along and still have some potential left to grow (back?) into.
Greg
Re: natural point of aim?
To be more specific, how do you make fine horizontal adjustments when you are trying to shoot a row of dots in 30 seconds? Do you just get good at moving your whole body in a short amount of time? Or is there a bit of a tradeoff for speed whereby you move the rear bag slightly in the desired direction?
Watching the video of Jacob doing the dot drill, it was hard to see any type of body movement.
To be more specific, how do you make fine horizontal adjustments when you are trying to shoot a row of dots in 30 seconds? Do you just get good at moving your whole body in a short amount of time? Or is there a bit of a tradeoff for speed whereby you move the rear bag slightly in the desired direction?
Watching the video of Jacob doing the dot drill, it was hard to see any type of body movement.
Re: natural point of aim?
When shooting multiple targets under time constraints you must begin to trade comfort for speed: The dots are not so far apart that you have to readjust your whole body. You could set your ideal NPA for the middle of the dot string. Or, you could set your idea NPA at the last dot and uncoil as you shoot them until you are in the most natural position for the last dot.
When shooting multiple targets under time constraints you must begin to trade comfort for speed: The dots are not so far apart that you have to readjust your whole body. You could set your ideal NPA for the middle of the dot string. Or, you could set your idea NPA at the last dot and uncoil as you shoot them until you are in the most natural position for the last dot.
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sacshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To be more specific, how do you make fine horizontal adjustments when you are trying to shoot a row of dots in 30 seconds? Do you just get good at moving your whole body in a short amount of time? Or is there a bit of a tradeoff for speed whereby you move the rear bag slightly in the desired direction?
Watching the video of Jacob doing the dot drill, it was hard to see any type of body movement.</div></div>
I have a question for you, why spend your time with this sort of practice? What is your objective? Is there some sort of achievement you are shooting for? Perhaps, you should consider practicing positions or marksmanship in general. And remember, unless you take the time to rebuild the position for every shot you may not get the overall result you are looking for, especially since abandoning an element of a steady position assures less than the best results. If you must do "dots" that's to say, if you think it will get you somewhere, try moving your belt buckle for a quick NPA adjustment. But, make no mistake about it, without adjustment of NPA for the hold you are seeking you will not hit exactly where aimed since you no longer have the conditions in place from which you originally zeroed your rifle.
BTW, champion shooters do not trade off anything, they learn how to do what it takes to produce the best results under any constraint/condition. So, work on getting NPA adjusted in what time you've got. One thing is clear, the sight needs to move so why not move it properly with the body. The position will be steady and therefore shots should come quickly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sacshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To be more specific, how do you make fine horizontal adjustments when you are trying to shoot a row of dots in 30 seconds? Do you just get good at moving your whole body in a short amount of time? Or is there a bit of a tradeoff for speed whereby you move the rear bag slightly in the desired direction?
Watching the video of Jacob doing the dot drill, it was hard to see any type of body movement.</div></div>
I have a question for you, why spend your time with this sort of practice? What is your objective? Is there some sort of achievement you are shooting for? Perhaps, you should consider practicing positions or marksmanship in general. And remember, unless you take the time to rebuild the position for every shot you may not get the overall result you are looking for, especially since abandoning an element of a steady position assures less than the best results. If you must do "dots" that's to say, if you think it will get you somewhere, try moving your belt buckle for a quick NPA adjustment. But, make no mistake about it, without adjustment of NPA for the hold you are seeking you will not hit exactly where aimed since you no longer have the conditions in place from which you originally zeroed your rifle.
BTW, champion shooters do not trade off anything, they learn how to do what it takes to produce the best results under any constraint/condition. So, work on getting NPA adjusted in what time you've got. One thing is clear, the sight needs to move so why not move it properly with the body. The position will be steady and therefore shots should come quickly.
Re: natural point of aim?
Unless you are using REALLY big paper to shoot your dot drill, the amount of movement required to get to the farthest dot's is minimal. NPA is essential for getting the round on target but I would submit that 2-3 other major factors come into play.
1. Scope clarity: I'm not talking about the quality of your scope, it's about the image presented to you. Clear and clean edge to edge clarity with no shadow is paramount, having your parallax adjusted is also handy.
Pressure against the stock: This has 2 components and both are equally important. The shoulder pressure must be the same to load the bipod. The hand pressure on the grip must be the same to control the recoil impulse. Change either one and things will change on the target.
It is quite possible to curve your body ever so slightly to achieve shots on a long row of targets by anchoring you hips and shifting your shoulders & elbows (right or left) and maintain your NPA to a great degree. A 1 inch shift behind the rifle will net you a 20 - 30 YARD spread at the target, obviously more than is needed for a dot drill. Maintaining the shoulder pressure to the stock and hand pressure SHOULD be a non issue as should maintaining your sight picture for a dot drill on an 8.5 X 11" target.
To truly evaluate the repeatability of your position and your bodies muscle memory of it I would submit that you put your 30 rounds 10 yards behind the gun. Shoot 1 round, get up and go get the next and come back. Drop down and get the next round off in 5 - 10 seconds, then do it again. This exercise focuses you on rebuilding the position. When you are on the gun for a long time your mind will fatigue and you will stop paying attention to your body as your body fatigues.
.02 from the cheap seats
Cheers,
Doc
Unless you are using REALLY big paper to shoot your dot drill, the amount of movement required to get to the farthest dot's is minimal. NPA is essential for getting the round on target but I would submit that 2-3 other major factors come into play.
1. Scope clarity: I'm not talking about the quality of your scope, it's about the image presented to you. Clear and clean edge to edge clarity with no shadow is paramount, having your parallax adjusted is also handy.
Pressure against the stock: This has 2 components and both are equally important. The shoulder pressure must be the same to load the bipod. The hand pressure on the grip must be the same to control the recoil impulse. Change either one and things will change on the target.
It is quite possible to curve your body ever so slightly to achieve shots on a long row of targets by anchoring you hips and shifting your shoulders & elbows (right or left) and maintain your NPA to a great degree. A 1 inch shift behind the rifle will net you a 20 - 30 YARD spread at the target, obviously more than is needed for a dot drill. Maintaining the shoulder pressure to the stock and hand pressure SHOULD be a non issue as should maintaining your sight picture for a dot drill on an 8.5 X 11" target.
To truly evaluate the repeatability of your position and your bodies muscle memory of it I would submit that you put your 30 rounds 10 yards behind the gun. Shoot 1 round, get up and go get the next and come back. Drop down and get the next round off in 5 - 10 seconds, then do it again. This exercise focuses you on rebuilding the position. When you are on the gun for a long time your mind will fatigue and you will stop paying attention to your body as your body fatigues.
.02 from the cheap seats
Cheers,
Doc
Re: natural point of aim?
Sterling, to a hammer everything looks like a nail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, champion shooters do not trade off anything, <span style="text-decoration: underline">they learn how to do what it takes to produce the best results under any constraint/condition</span>. </div></div>That's what trading is.
Sterling, to a hammer everything looks like a nail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, champion shooters do not trade off anything, <span style="text-decoration: underline">they learn how to do what it takes to produce the best results under any constraint/condition</span>. </div></div>That's what trading is.
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, to a hammer everything looks like a nail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, champion shooters do not trade off anything, <span style="text-decoration: underline">they learn how to do what it takes to produce the best results under any constraint/condition</span>. </div></div>That's what trading is.</div></div>
I don't personify objects or animals, so I don't think a hammer sees anything. And, no, trading off does not mean, as you are alluding, an abandonment of one thing important for something else perceived to be more important, the champion gets NPA within allotted time if it's possible. If it's not possible the point of the activity as viable practice is suspect.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, to a hammer everything looks like a nail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, champion shooters do not trade off anything, <span style="text-decoration: underline">they learn how to do what it takes to produce the best results under any constraint/condition</span>. </div></div>That's what trading is.</div></div>
I don't personify objects or animals, so I don't think a hammer sees anything. And, no, trading off does not mean, as you are alluding, an abandonment of one thing important for something else perceived to be more important, the champion gets NPA within allotted time if it's possible. If it's not possible the point of the activity as viable practice is suspect.
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, to a hammer everything looks like a nail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, champion shooters do not trade off anything, <span style="text-decoration: underline">they learn how to do what it takes to produce the best results under any constraint/condition</span>. </div></div>That's what trading is.</div></div>
I don't personify objects or animals, so I don't think a hammer sees anything. And, no, trading off does not mean, as you are alluding, an abandonment of one thing important for something else perceived to be more important, the champion gets NPA within allotted time if it's possible. If it's not possible the point of the activity as viable practice is suspect.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, to a hammer everything looks like a nail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, champion shooters do not trade off anything, <span style="text-decoration: underline">they learn how to do what it takes to produce the best results under any constraint/condition</span>. </div></div>That's what trading is.</div></div>
I don't personify objects or animals, so I don't think a hammer sees anything. And, no, trading off does not mean, as you are alluding, an abandonment of one thing important for something else perceived to be more important, the champion gets NPA within allotted time if it's possible. If it's not possible the point of the activity as viable practice is suspect.
Re: natural point of aim?
Sterling in the context of a competition of which you are accustom, there should be the minimum amount of trading off, but in the context of tactical shooting, to include tactical competitions, indexing and trading is a reality as well as a necessity.
Consider a moving target, a 10" plate (standard size @RO) moving across an 80ft front, shot from 100 yards to 500 yards, 10 shots total for 2 passes that last roughly 25 seconds per pass. There is no way to set up a proper NPA, you are moving with the target every shot.
Consider a police sniper on a call out waiting for the target to appear and to receive the green light, 30 degrees outside layin in wait 8 hours, his hands are gonna be cold, trigger control might be compromised.
Consider the soldier, dropped from a helicopter with an 80lbs ruck having to run 200 yards to his over watch then up 3 flights of stairs to cover the breech on the compound across the way. His breathing might be compromised.
The examples of trading off and indexing are well known and documented. In a service rifle match maybe not so much, but in the real world were seconds count and lives are on the line... Well you get the point.
Sterling in the context of a competition of which you are accustom, there should be the minimum amount of trading off, but in the context of tactical shooting, to include tactical competitions, indexing and trading is a reality as well as a necessity.
Consider a moving target, a 10" plate (standard size @RO) moving across an 80ft front, shot from 100 yards to 500 yards, 10 shots total for 2 passes that last roughly 25 seconds per pass. There is no way to set up a proper NPA, you are moving with the target every shot.
Consider a police sniper on a call out waiting for the target to appear and to receive the green light, 30 degrees outside layin in wait 8 hours, his hands are gonna be cold, trigger control might be compromised.
Consider the soldier, dropped from a helicopter with an 80lbs ruck having to run 200 yards to his over watch then up 3 flights of stairs to cover the breech on the compound across the way. His breathing might be compromised.
The examples of trading off and indexing are well known and documented. In a service rifle match maybe not so much, but in the real world were seconds count and lives are on the line... Well you get the point.
Re: natural point of aim?
I do get the point and thus what's the point of timed fire. If fast is considered important then shoot for record time. But, remember, this thread is natural point of aim, a topic not about sniper stuff but basic marksmanship. My comments are therefore in context to basic marksmanship.
I do get the point and thus what's the point of timed fire. If fast is considered important then shoot for record time. But, remember, this thread is natural point of aim, a topic not about sniper stuff but basic marksmanship. My comments are therefore in context to basic marksmanship.
Re: natural point of aim?
Which is why, in basic marksmanship training we are straight behind the rifle and index with the body pointed to the target and not offset so you can practice to get the best possible position quickly and efficiently. we use the knees to align the body. When you point the rifle straight to the target and the body straight to the rifle, you are that much closer to a correct NPA that works for multiple shots without the need to rebuild.
The point of both my post and Graham's post is your contention you don't trade off, well clearly you have to know what it means and how it affects the shooter, even at the basic level.
Which is why, in basic marksmanship training we are straight behind the rifle and index with the body pointed to the target and not offset so you can practice to get the best possible position quickly and efficiently. we use the knees to align the body. When you point the rifle straight to the target and the body straight to the rifle, you are that much closer to a correct NPA that works for multiple shots without the need to rebuild.
The point of both my post and Graham's post is your contention you don't trade off, well clearly you have to know what it means and how it affects the shooter, even at the basic level.
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... trading off does not mean, as you are alluding, an abandonment of one thing important for something else perceived to be more important, the champion gets NPA within allotted time if it's possible. If it's not possible the point of the activity as viable practice is suspect. </div></div>I like NRA high power shooting. It's a fun sport.
However, what you describe is neither what I meant nor what 'trading' is. And I disagree with your analysis of your own sport: All the time I see championship shooters rely on the fundamentals at which they excel to bolster the other fundamentals that they do not execute as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... trading off does not mean, as you are alluding, an abandonment of one thing important for something else perceived to be more important, the champion gets NPA within allotted time if it's possible. If it's not possible the point of the activity as viable practice is suspect. </div></div>I like NRA high power shooting. It's a fun sport.
However, what you describe is neither what I meant nor what 'trading' is. And I disagree with your analysis of your own sport: All the time I see championship shooters rely on the fundamentals at which they excel to bolster the other fundamentals that they do not execute as well.
Re: natural point of aim?
Here are the facts: NPA is an element of a steady position. This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. Learning to execute the two firing tasks considering all elements and factors which support the principles of marksmanship will yield the best results. Practice schedules which emphasise motor and picture memory development, as well as schedules which allow for processing the the fundamentals in the order of their occurrence will prepare a shooter for shooting scenarios where a compromise is unavoidable.
Here are the facts: NPA is an element of a steady position. This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. Learning to execute the two firing tasks considering all elements and factors which support the principles of marksmanship will yield the best results. Practice schedules which emphasise motor and picture memory development, as well as schedules which allow for processing the the fundamentals in the order of their occurrence will prepare a shooter for shooting scenarios where a compromise is unavoidable.
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. </div></div>
Sterling how do you adjust your NPA and hit a moving target multiple times ? Especially closer in, like 100 yards on a 3" target ?
What is your process to address this, specifically the NPA question. Say 5 shots across the same 80ft moving 3MPH
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. </div></div>
Sterling how do you adjust your NPA and hit a moving target multiple times ? Especially closer in, like 100 yards on a 3" target ?
What is your process to address this, specifically the NPA question. Say 5 shots across the same 80ft moving 3MPH
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen.</div></div>I do it all the time: Hit my aiming point without achieving NPA. I trade on other fundamentals in order to do it. Practical pistol shooters, compared to bullseye pistol shooters, do the same.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't personify objects or animals, so I don't think a hammer sees anything.</div></div>When I said that all a hammer sees is nails, I did not mean it literally. I meant that when all of one's experience is with one discipline it can be difficult, without an open mind, to understand other disciplines.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen.</div></div>I do it all the time: Hit my aiming point without achieving NPA. I trade on other fundamentals in order to do it. Practical pistol shooters, compared to bullseye pistol shooters, do the same.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't personify objects or animals, so I don't think a hammer sees anything.</div></div>When I said that all a hammer sees is nails, I did not mean it literally. I meant that when all of one's experience is with one discipline it can be difficult, without an open mind, to understand other disciplines.
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. </div></div>
Sterling how do you adjust your NPA and hit a moving target multiple times ? Especially closer in, like 100 yards on a 3" target ?
What is your process to address this, specifically the NPA question. Say 5 shots across the same 80ft moving 3MPH
</div></div>
I'm going to take a large WAG here of letting a fart out of the LEFT side of my ass cheek as the appropriate course of action, but clearly I need to sign up for some online training!
If Sterling comes back with a NPA that tight and an appropriate correction I am going to sell my riles and go airsoft.
Go Sterling go!
I'm so screwed!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. </div></div>
Sterling how do you adjust your NPA and hit a moving target multiple times ? Especially closer in, like 100 yards on a 3" target ?
What is your process to address this, specifically the NPA question. Say 5 shots across the same 80ft moving 3MPH
</div></div>
I'm going to take a large WAG here of letting a fart out of the LEFT side of my ass cheek as the appropriate course of action, but clearly I need to sign up for some online training!
If Sterling comes back with a NPA that tight and an appropriate correction I am going to sell my riles and go airsoft.
Go Sterling go!
I'm so screwed!
Re: natural point of aim?
Seems like there has been alot of disagreeing over the fundamentals by the 'seniors' on the forum lately. The funny part is from the side you can see you guys are all saying the same thing, but are really just arguing semantics.
Seems like there has been alot of disagreeing over the fundamentals by the 'seniors' on the forum lately. The funny part is from the side you can see you guys are all saying the same thing, but are really just arguing semantics.
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. </div></div>
Sterling how do you adjust your NPA and hit a moving target multiple times ? Especially closer in, like 100 yards on a 3" target ?
What is your process to address this, specifically the NPA question. Say 5 shots across the same 80ft moving 3MPH
</div></div>
What you do does not alter facts. NPA is essential to hitting exactly where aimed. But, hitting where aimed means something different to you than it does to me, that's to say the consequence of not hitting exactly where aimed may be moot. In such a scenario, a disregard for NPA, abandonment of NPA, or failure to be able to adjust NPA for whatever reason may not be much of a trade off at all when a good hit is simply a hit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. </div></div>
Sterling how do you adjust your NPA and hit a moving target multiple times ? Especially closer in, like 100 yards on a 3" target ?
What is your process to address this, specifically the NPA question. Say 5 shots across the same 80ft moving 3MPH
</div></div>
What you do does not alter facts. NPA is essential to hitting exactly where aimed. But, hitting where aimed means something different to you than it does to me, that's to say the consequence of not hitting exactly where aimed may be moot. In such a scenario, a disregard for NPA, abandonment of NPA, or failure to be able to adjust NPA for whatever reason may not be much of a trade off at all when a good hit is simply a hit.
Re: natural point of aim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. </div></div>
Sterling how do you adjust your NPA and hit a moving target multiple times ? Especially closer in, like 100 yards on a 3" target ?
What is your process to address this, specifically the NPA question. Say 5 shots across the same 80ft moving 3MPH
</div></div>
Nice try, but since you cannot spin the facts to support your argument you try to alter the argument. NPA is essential to hitting exactly where aimed. But, hitting where aimed appears to mean something different to you than it does to me, that's to say, the consequence of not hitting exactly where aimed for you may be moot. In such a scenario, a disregard for NPA, abandonment of NPA, or failure to be able to adjust NPA for whatever reason may not be much of a trade off at all when a good hit is simply a hit rather than a desire for bullet placement at point of aim.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This thread is about how to adjust NPA. When NPA is not addressed, hitting exactly where aimed will not happen. </div></div>
Sterling how do you adjust your NPA and hit a moving target multiple times ? Especially closer in, like 100 yards on a 3" target ?
What is your process to address this, specifically the NPA question. Say 5 shots across the same 80ft moving 3MPH
</div></div>
Nice try, but since you cannot spin the facts to support your argument you try to alter the argument. NPA is essential to hitting exactly where aimed. But, hitting where aimed appears to mean something different to you than it does to me, that's to say, the consequence of not hitting exactly where aimed for you may be moot. In such a scenario, a disregard for NPA, abandonment of NPA, or failure to be able to adjust NPA for whatever reason may not be much of a trade off at all when a good hit is simply a hit rather than a desire for bullet placement at point of aim.
Re: natural point of aim?
So it is impossible to hit where desired without NPA?
Im sorry I'm not buying it. Obviously one would want NPA but it is possible to accurately send a round without NPA. Will your percentage of accurate hits drop, for sure, but it doesn't mean that it never happens.
So it is impossible to hit where desired without NPA?
Im sorry I'm not buying it. Obviously one would want NPA but it is possible to accurately send a round without NPA. Will your percentage of accurate hits drop, for sure, but it doesn't mean that it never happens.
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