Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

[TOP PREDATOR]

before i get banned on RFC for getting in a pissing match with one of the rimfire snobs, i thought i'd better post / ask this on a real shooters' website for real information:


i've been thinking about investing in one or two of these tools.

if i have my info straight so far, and the most current prices / contact information i can find:

<span style="font-weight: bold">PACO KELLY'S ACU'RZR</span>

the paco accurizer tool requires you to "whack it " on a hard surface with a mallet.
Paco Kelly
PO Box 1170
Cortaro, AZ 85652
http://www.gunblast.com/Paco2.htm
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/paco-kelly%E2%80%99s-acu%E2%80%99rzr-bullet-tool/
http://www.leverguns.com/store/acurizer.htm
[email protected]
phase 4 seems to be an apples to apples comparison, 1 round at a time
THE PHASE 4 IS FOR THOSE FOLKS LIKE ME THAT HAVE A NUMBER OF 22 RIMFIRE FIREARMS... FOUR FORMING CHAMBERS .222 THRU .225 ALL RODS.$75
appears there are 3 types of bullet reforming rods - the accurizer, scorpion, and nastinose. just by looking at how each is operated, the paco seems odd that you'ld have to whack the tool / rod. seems there can be some variation depending on how differently you strike it.


<span style="font-weight: bold">NEAL WALTZ DIE</span>

Neal Waltz
Email - [email protected]
4105 HYATT N.W. MASSILLON, OH 44646
Phone - 1 330 837 4818
from what i found with searches, The cost of the dies is 125 plus fifteen dollars shipping. pictures here:http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239273&highlight=neal+waltz+die
it appears there are only 2 bullet shaping options. the "Eley head" and the hollowpoint. looks like a reloading die and uses a reloading press. the waltz die seems to have the most uniform pressure results, but you'ld need a reloading press.


<span style="font-weight: bold">D Rock bullet modification system </span>

(contact information in links below)
$55.00 w/ 1 forming rod addtional rods are an extra $10.00, the tool and all 8 rods are $160.00 - (so to completely try all rods to see which works best, you can be in it for $160.00, but at least you do have 8 optional types of heads). instructions to use the D Rock http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311814
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=32854#
although not neccessary, D Rock suggests using an arbor press
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=805-1005&PMPXNO=948887 $25.95
arbor press adapter plate $30.00
$55.00 tool and 1 rod + $25.95 press, + $30.00 adapter plate = $110.95 plus S&H for 1 style rod ($160.00 + $25.95 press + $30.00 adapter plate = $215.95 plus S&H for the "complete" setup)
the D Rock tool seems to equal the waltz die if you get the arbor press and adapter plate, and even then seems complicated / time consuming putting in spacers, collets, moving the tool to the next station, etc. is it really as complicated as it looks? it can also be used without a press, but how do you know when equal pressure is applied from round to round?


there's alot posted at RFC on each and how they shrink groups, but rarely any before and after group pictures or measurements posted. anyone have any befores and afters to share?

anyone have 1 of each or 2 of 3 to compare apples to apples?

if so, does anyone have the current prices on each?

does the cost of the dies justify buying cheaper ammo and the time spent processing a brick to just buying better ammo?

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

Looks kinda like snake oil to me. I think that the line of thinking is that Eley has the dimple and it is the most accurate bullet out there, but the dimple is actually a remnant of the manufacturing process, much like the hollow point of a BTHP bullet. Adding a dimple or some other shape after the mold seems counterproductive. And if there were more effective bullet shapes, it seems like the manufacturers would make it that way in the first place.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

I have seen pissing matches all over the place about this. IHMSA made a rule because of these dies and reforming tools. I have seen lots of arguements but NEVER have seen any hard evidence that proves these things do anything except alter the bullet. Snake oil is an amazing thing. Two different people can use it and come up with entirely different results. If you have a crappy rifle with a loose bore these tools may help. No matter what you do to the bullet you can't change the powder charge and we all know that is one of the most important things. If your velocity isn't consistent what good is a fatter bullet? Snake oil, that is my take.
P.S. Dang Carter used snake oil at the same time I was...I need to write faster.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

in all my usual rimfire haunts, most say they work with cheaper ammo, one guys says it really doesn't make much difference with the more top shelf match ammos.

yet through 98% of the searchs and posts i read, no good measurements or pictures posted to make a determination. in the remaining 2% talks about only at 50 yards.

i agree that if the powder charge is off, nothing you do to the bullet is going to change the POI.

 

[CSS]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

I bought a 4 size set from Paco several years ago. I was shooting several different 22's and the multiple sizes seemed the thing to do. long story short, to time consuming, spend the money testing different ammo and see what your gun likes.

If you have 1 or 2 22's and time on your side the Paco tool does work. It is not a "whack" with a hammer, just lite taps.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

just heard back from the D Rock tool guy, he makes no claims for better accuraccy, but a more effective hunting bullet.

thanks css

 

[smirker]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

No experiance with the listed dies.But I have made a copy of the old"Hanned"tool.Did not hurt accuracy,but did seem to make a better hunting load.CCI thought enough of the design to make the SG load.I believe all the tools you listed came after the Hanned Tool.But that only means they are"New and Improved".Internet forum postings are like TV news,entertaining,but based on biased views.Not worth the time to to argue,considering you really dont know who you are arguing with.Just my two cents.

 

[750k2]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

I have the waltz
It can make a dif in accuracy.
Themost help was with my revolvers.
It lets you size to the cylinder throats.
But the best part is making hollow point
target ammo.

A small used press clamped to the bench allows
quality range time - don't forget the mic to measure
bullet dia. as it will make them bigger.
If you have a rifle that liked Lapua Master/Midas L
This will help.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

Guys... what TP was asking for is numbers. How did you all test with the tool vs without? Side-by-side 5X5's or 5X10's? What were the average group sizes before and after?

my only other comment is to TP... you got banned from RC? Really? I would think that is hard to do. SH is more liberal with the ban hammer, so you must have gotten into a real shouting match over there.

 

[GSRswapandslow]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

he prob made fun of all the idiots and their tacticool 10/22's.....or the guys buying the dumbass 28" barrels lol

 

[Wolvenhaven]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

You'll get a better result from using the rim-size measurement tool and sorting your ammo into piles.

 

[ba_50]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

Tp,

Do a search on RC for: D Rock .22 caliber bullet sizer review

by Stiff neck. He couldn't get answers so he bought one and did lots of tests. He never tried it on 510's so after reading this I sent an Email asking about it.

One point brought up recently is what happens if the seal is broken between the bullet and case? I left some .22's in the back of the truck that got wet and half wouldn't fire so with a possible broken seal that powder would probably attract moisture.

I am not convinced it is worth it myself and don't need any more complicated nit picking stuff on the bench.

 

[ba_50]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

Well I just got Stiff Neck's email and he said he did a lot of testing and said it made minimal or no improvement in accuracy but made great hollowpoints.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
my only other comment is to TP... you got banned from RC? Really? I would think that is hard to do. SH is more liberal with the ban hammer, so you must have gotten into a real shouting match over there.</div></div>

didn't get into a shouting match yet, i posted a few things over there that i posted over here. you get the same rimfire snobbish crap, mostly from the benchrest shooters (no offense to any BRs here). i'll check in a few minutes to see if i'm banned or not (low post count and i stand up for myself and those without $3,000 setups) then there is the can't go over 50 yards crowd, knocking everyone over here.

i know there is a wealth of technical information over there, but when you actually pose a question (honestly and modestly) that is valid because you are not sure or understand completely, you usually get the old lower than thou answers.

i seen the stiff neck posts, while alot of it is good, it wasn't as complete at the further distances as i was hoping to see. as amatter of coincidence, it was stiffneck i got into a little pissing match with on the CCI ammo test.

just checked, i'm not banned, but if i were, no big loss. the only reason i thought i may be is because i took a crack at the rimfire snobs.

i know this is only internet BS, but still in all some sort of mutual respect should be expected, even if a low amount.

anyhow, i did get a PM with some good data on it using before and after with different rifles and different ammos at 50 and 100 yards. according to that chart looks like some ammos don't respond to the dies / tools at all, but most do shrink .5" to .75" or even more depending on setup at 100 yards and .25" to .5" at 50 with cheap ammo.

http://imgur.com/sOnIq
http://imgur.com/l3sJ2

the guy(s) that made those charts up seem like down to earth folks, with, and i quote "real world groups not for bragging rights."

looks like the paco tool works and i would like to get more info on the waltz die though before i make a purchase of either. D Rock himself says he makes no claims of accuraccy improvement, just a better hunting head, so i'll narrow the choice to paco's or waltz's.

BTW i figure with all the fooling around we all do with ammo, the intent of the post here is not only to so i can get information to make an intelligent purchase, but to share something out there that may help out everyone else and pool the three top tools that i know of together.

it may be a month or three before i get one of these, but when i do i'll post up any results. of course i'll do a weight sorted and un weight sorted before and after comparison.

in the mean time if anyone has anymore info, please put it up for the good of the order.

 

[wksinatl]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

I used a Waltz die setup. I ran test through 2 Russian CM-2's. The test were very deliberate and I compared and untouched round vs. one size with the die. vs. another size with the die. All were 510's. When all was said and done I could tell no difference in accuracy.

When I compete with these rifles I shoot Wolf Match Target in these rifles and they shoot like lazers. With 510's they are just "OK" to start with.

No, I don't have the numbers in front of me but if I did....they would would say "the die didn't help or hurt accuracy".

Because I am a hard head I plan to run the same tests in my 40x.

Keith

 

[hardcandy]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

D Rock .22 Caliber Bullet Sizer Review
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345231

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

I just shoot a medium level ammo (SK Standard+).

If I found hours at the bench soothing I'd be happy to modify bullets, but its a chore that I could live without.

If I shot better than the moderately priced ammo did, I think I'd just get better ammo and be done with it.

 

[al redneck]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

I use the Waltz die on Wolf MT . I posted at rimfireshooting forum . I shot 10 groups with and 10 without running them through the Waltz die . Saw a 25% reduction in group size at 50 yds . Same day , same rifle , same lot of ammo. I had to move up to RWS rifle match to beat the accuracy level of the Wolf MT after running them through the Waltz die but the RWS was almost twice the cost of the Wolf MT .

david

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

I have the Waltz Die and plan on doing some extensive testing with it.
Preliminary results with 200 rounds of Federal AM22 modified with an EPS tip resulted in a nominal decrease in accuracy.
If you are shooting paper though, the EPS tip cuts a very nice wad cutter like hole in the paper.

My thinking at this time is that the Neil Waltz die could improve accuracy if one were to spend enough time playing with different combinations of factors.
The basis for this is that it will undoubtedly increase consistency of the bullet.

The initial test results coupled with careful examination of other peoples results have me thinking that a combination of the following three factors will render the best result.
- Reshaping the bullet
- Sorting bullets by weight & rim thickness
- The use of white lithium grease as a bullet lube.
(US Army AMU did extensive testing and found that plain old White Lithium grease works wonders, but is very messy.)

My opinion at the moment is that the Watz Die is a good investment for someone wanting to make high quality / accurate hunting ammunition out of match ammo.
However, purchasing one for the sole purpose of making less expensive ammo into Lapua Midas rounds is akin to alchemy.
It is fun for someone who enjoys experimenting and enjoys solving difficult / allusive problems.

Bottom line, if I were to do it over again, I probably would not buy any of the bullet shapers unless it was for the sole purpose of making hunting ammo.
If you are to buy one though, the Neil Waltz die is the only one I would consider.
The quality of Mr. Waltz's work is outstanding and a die based solution is in my opinion, the only one that is truly repeatable.
(With the exception of the D Rock setup if used in an arbor press.)

Hope this info helps.
It probably makes things even more difficult to discern, but I thought that I would share.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

i'm probably going to purchase the waltz die in the somewhat near future.

i just received a paco tool via a guy on another site that sent it to me for free as he wan't using it anymore. nice guy, doesn't even want me to flip for postage, athough i've offered several times.

i know you can't do anything on how the cartridge is charged, but having a uniform bullet or increasing the diameter slightly to better engage the grooves and lands sounds feasible.

so i'll give it a whirl. as i thinned out my straggler ammo today, all i have left as far as "cheap bulk ammo" are CCI Blazers ("unfortunately" they shoot pretty well on there own). so i'll probably start with them, they are already weight sorted, so i'll take 5 of the different weight lots and mix them evenly in the magazine to give an objective mix of weights.

first group will be the control group, untouched by the tool at 50 and 100.

there are three different rods that come with the tool, so i'll do groups for each rod at both 50 and 100 yards.

stand by for range report.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

Standing by, eagerly

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

hopefully tomorrow, i was at a 7 hr range day today, hopefully the missus will let me oout of the cage tomorrow too.

we just has a small tornado blow by a few hours ago, and they are calling for a windy day tomorrow. to keep things neutral, if it's windy, no testing until good conditions are present.

i just found out something else about the tool - one side resizes to .223, and the other side resizes to .224

i still like the idea of using a press, to me it seems the press / die combo will keep applied pressure more evenly from round to round, but we'll see what happens with the Paco.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Neal Waltz die, Paco Kelly acu'rzr, D Rock tool

review of the Acu'rzr to keep the thread nice and tidy.

Paco Kelly Acu'rzr tool review

when i get the Waltz die, i will add it in to complete the collection.