Neck not sized all way to shoulder with FL sizing die

[bbowles]

I use a Forster FL sizer die and noticed when I set it up to get amount of shoulder setback it does not size the neck full length to the shoulder. Is this normal? I assumed if headspace is right that full length of neck would be sized. Does it matter that full length is not sized? Guess inside is full sized but not outside.

I use a redding big boss 2 press with hornady LNL quick detach bushing and replaced Forster lock ring with hornady lock ring setup. At full upward stroke of press there is about 1/8" of space between die bottom and shellholder. Thanks.

 

[918v]

A FL die, by design, has to size the whole neck before touching the shoulder.

 

[bigedp51]

I hate to point out the obvious but you have an 1/8 of an inch gap between the die and the shell holder and are not sizing the case properly.

Now for grins and giggles place a .010 feeler gauge on top of the shell holder and then screw the die down until its snug on the feeler gauge and resize the case. keep decreasing the gap until you have your proper shoulder bump.

Right now you have your full length die set up to partially neck size the case and is "WHY" you are seeing your problem.

The Rifleman's Journal: Basics: Resizing - Case Dimension Changes

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"
The late Jim Hull
Sierra Bullets test lab

Meaning the case should be full length resized with minimum shoulder bump

The Rifleman's Journal: Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing

 

[M40_A1]

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

That would mean WAY too much headspace.

 

[bbowles]

Bigedp51,
My gut told me something wrong. I could see black soot line where sizing stops. So... How does shoulder get set back correctly but not full length of neck? Would assume that is "fixed" part of die that could ONLY set back shoulder AFTER HAS FULL LENGTH NECK SIZED?

Sad thing I have sized three cycles of same lapua brass without no problems. Now doing LC13 brass.

You helped me on another recent thread about pressure problems of ejector rings. Maybe this has something to do with that? But I still had those same ejector rings on factory hornady match 75 gr .223.

 

[bbowles]

So I guess my question is how is the shoulder being set back from 1.463" to 1.460" AND NOT sizing the WHOLE neck? I am missing something. Either I am interpreting the brass wrong by assuming the soot line on neck is not where sizing stops (don't think so cause i can feel raised spot on that soot line) OR I am incorrect that shoulder set back means full neck sized. Thanks for the guidance guys!

 

[918v]

So... How does shoulder get set back correctly but not full length of neck?

It doesn't. A FL die, by design, must size the full length of the neck before bumping the shoulder by ANY amount. Have you looked inside your die? Does it remind you of anything?

 

[918v]

So I guess my question is how is the shoulder being set back from 1.463" to 1.460" AND NOT sizing the WHOLE neck?

The case conforms to the die. Maybe what you're seeing is the internal profile of he die which is not the same as the exterior profile of a virgin case which was made on a different die.

 

[bbowles]

918v,
That is what I am trying to say. I didn't think it was possible to set back ANY of shoulder BEFORE full neck sized. So how is my shoulder actually getting set back .003 measuring with Sinclair bump guage and NOT full length sizing? I think answer is it CAN'T. I will measure on full neck to see and report back.

 

[bbowles]

Ok I have some numbers for you guys. My once fired LC 13 neck OD measures .254. When I size these I get the first approx .120" of the neck at .244". Then after .120" I get about .254-.255" until shoulder transition starts. No idea how full length of neck not sized yet shoulder is set back correctly.

I read in several places to set up a FL die lock ring where shoulder is set back about .003-.005" for my .223 AR and NOT to do as Forster and most dies say to setup. That is touching shellholder to bottom of die and I think tighten another turn (or something like that)?

 

[918v]

A fireformed case has conformed to the chamber. It is bigger at the neck and shoulder. A FL die sizes the neck and the shoulder, but the resulting case will be different because the internal profile of the die is different. Maybe the die has more of a radius. This may give the appearance of the neck not completely sized. But it is, by that die, and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[bbowles]

By the way,
I use a Redding #10 shellholder with an o-ring in place of the press retaining spring clip (to hopefully avoid the cocked shellholder). Also, I use the Hornady LNL bushings with Hornady lock ring in place of the Forster lock ring. I think I talked to Sinclair tech guy and was told (I think since have been trying to learn so much in short time) that LNL bushing would cause there to be bigger space between shellholder and bottom of die. He said key was to setup lock ring when shoulder pushed back amount I want it to be.

I will work on this tomorrow night and think some more. Any more guidance is MUCH APPRECIATED! THANKS!

 

[bbowles]

918v,
I thought same thing but it can even be seen a raised line at about .120" from mouth around circumference of neck. Maybe that is just where transition to shoulder starts?

 

[bigedp51]

By the way,
I use a Redding #10 shellholder with an o-ring in place of the press retaining spring clip (to hopefully avoid the cocked shellholder).

You are over complicating your life, if you had the redding competition shellholder set, these shellholders would contact the base of the die and the press would reach cam over and you would have the proper shoulder bump.

You have your die 1/8 of an inch above your shellholder, READ the setup instructions with your die set. When set up for maximum resizing the die contacts the shellholder. The redding competition shellholders let you control shoulder bump in .002 increments with no guesswork.

REDDING COMPETITION SHELLHOLDER SETS | Sinclair Intl

The redding competition shellholders give you .010 adjustment in shoulder bump "WITHOUT" touching the die adjustment, and the die always contacts the shellholder.

Below the fired length of my .223/5.56 case, the gauge has been adjusted to read true headspace.

In my Rockchucker press I'm using the +.002 shellholder and below the resized case has .003 shoulder bump.

 

[bigedp51]

That would mean WAY too much headspace.

You need to read the link before making any comments.

"a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling"

A full length resized case with minimum shoulder bump does "NOT" have "way too much headspace". The bullet centers the case in the throat and the rear of the case is supported by the bolt. The case body and neck never touch the chamber and have NO influence in case alignment. Meaning "The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case". Both Kevin Thomas and Germán A. Salazar knew and shot competitively with Jim Hull of Sierra bullets.

 

[918v]

918v,
I thought same thing but it can even be seen a raised line at about .120" from mouth around circumference of neck. Maybe that is just where transition to shoulder starts?

No, can't be. The neck is at least twice that length before the radius begins. Maybe you have a botched die? Could you FL size a case making sure to bottom out the die against the shell holder, and post a pic of the neck?

 

[mdmp5]

A f/l bushing die will miss the very bottom of the neck. Tubb's 6xc die bushing includes the shoulder to get the entire neck.

 

[M40_A1]

You need to read the link before making any comments.

It was a JOKE, Ed. I mean, come on....a rat turd compared to a violin case? Use your imagination and chuckle every once in a while.

Anyway, to the op...
This may be what you are seeing....

When the shell enters the die, the neck starts sizing down first. This sizing pushes down on the rest of the case and the shoulder is likewise pushed down, resulting in your measurement showing that your shoulder is "bumped back". BUT, as the shell enters further into the die, the shell's walls start to get squeezed in by the sides of the die, and the brass has to go somewhere- the shoulder GROWS again. THEN, as the neck portion of the die comes down all the way to the shoulder, the shoulder of the die makes contact with the shoulder of the case, which at that point starts to be formed down by the shoulder in the die. Governing how far the shoulder of the die forms the shoulder on the case will determine your true "bump". Remember, though, that brass will spring back some, and the measurements seldom end up being perfectly the same.

I'd bet that if you turn the die down a little more at a time, you will start to see the shoulder GROW again before it is actually bumped down by the shoulder in the die. Also, be sure to lube the outside of your necks so the shoulder does not get pushed down excessively during the initial neck sizing stage.

 

[bigedp51]

bbowles

What do you have to measure cartridge headspace after firing and resizing? A simple case gauge or the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge?

"WHY" is your die 1/8 of an inch from touching the shellholder when shoulder bump is controlled in thousandths of an inch?

1/8 of an inch is 0.125 inches, and a good ways off from even touching the shoulder of the case. That type of "close" only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades.

Below is a brand new unfired Federal XM193 cartridge in my gauge at 1.4625, with your die 1/8 of an inch from touching the shellholder, the shoulder of your die is at 1.5875 and 0.125 from touching the shoulder of the case.
(plus or minus a RCH)

 

[FLIGHT762]

bbowles

What do you have to measure cartridge headspace after firing and resizing? A simple case gauge or the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge?

This is the question I was going to ask. None of my F/L dies will bump and set back a shoulder set 1/8th" off of the shell holder.

bbowles, what type of gauge are you using to measure your shoulder bump?

 

[bbowles]

I use the Sinclair comparator/bump guage body (part # 749-002-552) with the Sinclair bump guage insert (part # 749-011-473). Works just like Hornady version I think. I put body w/ insert in calipers and measure case headspace. My fired cases repeatedly come out at about 1.463". I bump back to 1.460" and yet doesn't seem to full length size neck.

I must be missing something. How can the neck go inside die and NOT full length neck size AND STILL yet bump back shoulder?

 

[bbowles]

My Forster die is marked on side "forster 223 rem FLS -R". Not sure what "R" means but assume "FLS" is full length size." Starting to think my die is messed up. I am trying to keep this simple for my reloading but this can't be right.

 

[M40_A1]

I must be missing something. How can the neck go inside die and NOT full length neck size AND STILL yet bump back shoulder?

Again, it probably isn't the shoulder in the die doing that.

Assuming I understand your situation correctly, try this. Enclose the fingers of your right hand around the first joint of your left hand's index finger. Now, push your two hands together. Do you feel the pressure pushing into the base of your index finger of your left hand? THAT is what it is like to size the neck, before the rest of the case- shoulder or walls- touch the rest of the insides of your die. THAT is what is pushing your shoulders back before the shoulder in your die even begins to touch the case. Why don't you try what I suggested, and see if the shoulder GROWs again as you screw the die in a bit more at a time, but not to the point that the shoulder in your die actually touches the case's shoulder yet.

As I already said, proper neck lube can help alleviate much of the shoulder crush that occurs during the initial necking down stage.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I must be missing something. How can the neck go inside die and NOT full length neck size AND STILL yet bump back shoulder?

You didn't state what caliber you're loading for. Here's some measurements from my 308 Win. and below, I have some from my 223 Remington.

I also use the Sinclair bump inserts. Fired cases come out of a couple of my rifles between 1.564"-68" on the gaugein the 308 Win. I bump them back to 1.562"-63". A SAAMI 1.630" 308 Winchester GO gauge measures 1.561" in my Sinclair bump gauge. My measurements are set with my digital caliper zeroed to "0.00" with the Sinclair gauge.

I have over 20 sets of rifle dies. I've never had a F/L die set 1/8" off of the shell holder and bump the shoulders back to minimum SAAMI specs. I also have a set of the Hornady bump gauges and I actually prefer the Hornady set since I seem to get better repeatable readings, but the Sinclair set works.


From your measurements, Are you reloading for the 223 Remington? The light just went on for me since you didn't say what caliber you're reloading.

I do have some measurements with the 223 Remington insert in my Sinclair gauge. Factory shoulders on several brands of Commercial and Military .223 and 5.56 NATO ammo measures 1.426"-27". Fired cases in a couple of my AR-15's measure 1.434"-1.437". I size the cases to 1.428"-30" to get them to chamber in the gas guns.

Do you have any factory or military loaded rounds you can measure?

Do you have a couple pieces of old brass you could sacrifice? Take the shoulder measurement, note it and then screw your F/L die down to the shell holder, F/L resize the brass and then measure the shoulder bump? I can't imagine you would be bumping back the shoulders to 1.400" more or less. Your die shouldn't be able to size the shoulder down to much less than 1.460 +or- a few thousandths.

You don't happen to have the decapping unit set too low do you? I have a set of Forster dies. Did you set the decapping stem up to the die directions? Forster dies have a different set up where the expander ball is set where it sits just below the case neck at the top of the up stroke. It is different than other dies. It does take a little fiddling with it to get it set up right.

I'm trying to help you figure this out. Your measurement are a bit different than mine, but if you could measure the shoulders on a couple of Factory loaded ammo, that would help you get into the ball park of what the minimum shoulder dimensions should be.

 

[bbowles]

Will try to experiment tonight. Problem is with the Hornady LNL die bushing with Forster die I only have about ONE more thread left on die to screw down. So guess I can take out bushing but doubt I am ONLY one in the world using Forster die WITH Hornady quick detach LNL bushing. So how could it be that I am out of threads? Only way I can experiment is take off LNL bushing and try.

 

[bbowles]

FLIGHT762,
I Really appreciate your help! Will try to get some numbers later tonight.

 

[bbowles]

flight762,
Loading for 5.56 rifle chamber (AR). Bought all dies, bump guages, etc for .223. Have loaded about 500 cases (both Lapua .223 & LC 13 5.56). Not one problem other than just noticed a pronounced higher spot about .134" from mouth (OAL 1.751" and total neck length about 1.90") and some ejector rings on some of the LC 13 and some factory Hornady loads. No big pressure problems.

Biggest mystery is the neck not full sized to transition of shoulder. Sized neck OD is about .246" but where sizing stops on neck is .255 OD (just like fired neck OD).

As for headspace measurements I get from Sinclair bump guage:

Fired Cases (Rem, Hornady Match 75gr 1.459"; Amer Eagle FC 1.461"; LC13 1.460"; Fed XM193 (LC 13 Headstamp) & Lapua 1.463"

New Factory Unfired (Amer Eagle FC 1.446"; Hornady Match 75gr 1.451"; Winch Match 69gr 1.445"

New Unfired brass (Lapua 1.444"; LC 13 1.444")

Have been setting up Forster die to just bump back from 1.463" to 1.459". No problems but this not full length of neck being sized worries me. Again, have loaded and shot about 500 cases with no problems and 1.00 to 1.25 MOA up to 400 yds. Not shot longer than that yet.

 

[bigedp51]

Set your dies up to make hard contact with the shell holder and the press reaching cam over. "FULL LENGTH RESIZE" an old fired case that you are willing to use as an experiment. Now measure this "FULLY" resized case and then measure a new unfired factory loaded cartridge and compare the lengths of these two cases.

Now get back to us when you have these measurements.

You also have too many new reloading "toys" to play with for someone just starting out, KISS (Keep it simple stupid) and get back to basics. Get rid of the Hornady quick detach bushings and stop adding things you do not need as a beginner reloader.
YOU are over complicating things and the FIRST thing you need to do is get your die to touch the shell holder. AFTER you compare the two cases you can then raise the die.

28 posting in this thread and your die is no closer to the shell holder than your first posting.

 

[bbowles]

flight762,
Also my eyes deceived me. The gap between shellholder and die bottom is only about .042". Sorry.

 

[bbowles]

Here is some new numbers... Took these LC 13 sized way had been doing sizing back from 1.463" to 1.459". Then raised ram to top and set up die to touch shell holder. Resized again and NEW MEASUREMENTS ARE 1.451"! I will admit the neck seems full sized at .246" until transition to about .248" at shoulder edge. BUT why would I want to over work brass .012" (1.463" fired factory and loaded brass to 1.451" sizing by setting up way every die maker wants us to? Most loaders say to ignore instructions and just push back shoulder .003 to .005".

 

[FLIGHT762]

So Factory ammo shoulders run between 1.444"-1.451". That tells you SAAMI minimum is around there. If you have to extract one of your loaded rounds out of your rifle's chamber, does it extract easily? If it doesn't, you have to F/L size more. On your fired brass, do you deprime your brass before measuring shoulder bump in your Sinclair gauge? If you don't deprime the cases, before measuring your shoulder bump, you can get false readings from raised, cratered primers. I don't know if you know that.

Your fired Hornady match empties measure @ 1.459". I would turn the F/L die in a tiny bit more and try a bump of 1.455". Your die should be fully sizing the neck. Try turning the die in to touch the shell holder and see what shoulder bump what measurement you get. See if it will get near 1.450".

I think you don't have the die turned in enough. I would try it at the bump of 1.455" and make a couple of dummy rounds to see how they chamber and extract.

I know in my AR-15's, I have to shoulder bump to a certain point, about no more than +.005" above the shoulders of factory loads or my ammo will not chamber.

That's about all I can think of for now.

 

[bbowles]

bigedp51,
BUT I LIKE MY TOYS AND I WILL LEARN TO DO THIS WITH OR WITHOUT YOU! HA! Thought I would throw a temper tantrum! AHHHHHHHHH! Got your measurements and not what you expected was it. Trying to say I don't think die is right.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I was typing my post #31 when you posted your new numbers in post #30. I kind of thought maximum sizing would be around 1.450".

That does make sense now.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Try a dummy round with the shoulder bumped to 1.455". If it chambers and easily extracts out with pulling the charging handle, I'd go with that. Sometimes, these gas guns can blow out the shoulders a little more than the chamber.

I just think with shoulders bumped to the original 1.460", you might have chambering issues.

 

[bbowles]

Flight762,
THANKS so much for all your help! This seems like it will work well at about 1.455".

 

[bigedp51]

Below a Colt field gauge for the 5.56, 1.4736

The colt gauge in my calibrated Hornady case gauge.

Below a fired case from my AR15 Carbine

The same case resized with .003 shoulder bump.

Below a new unfired Federal M193 cartridge

.223/5.56 headspace to go, now pick a real number, 1,455 ain't on the list.

Reloading manuals have a large section at the front of the manual on how to reload, reading it answers a lot of questions.

bigedp51,
BUT I LIKE MY TOYS AND I WILL LEARN TO DO THIS WITH OR WITHOUT YOU! HA! Thought I would throw a temper tantrum! AHHHHHHHHH! Got your measurements and not what you expected was it. Trying to say I don't think die is right.

You can't get true readings from a comparator gauge unless it is calibrated to a REAL headspace gauge.

Now try and learn something.