Fairly new to reloading and was curious,I have bought lapua new brass for my .338 and my .308,and all cases will only be shot in only their respective rifle.A what point should I full length resize vs. neck size only? Thanx
Neck sizeing vs. full length?
- Thread starter Steve Petty
- Start date
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
FL every time, any perceived benefit from NS only is negated when you show up to the range/match/hunt and your ammo won't chamber, set the FL die to bump the shoulder .001, develop a load that is accurate and it will be repeatable because the brass is all sized the same, and most importantly your ammo will chamber every time.
FL every time, any perceived benefit from NS only is negated when you show up to the range/match/hunt and your ammo won't chamber, set the FL die to bump the shoulder .001, develop a load that is accurate and it will be repeatable because the brass is all sized the same, and most importantly your ammo will chamber every time.
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
If your running the brass through the same chamber you can get away with neck sizing only for a few to multiple firings, but you will need to FL resize at some point unless you can deal with tight bolt syndrome. I run matches primarily and need to be able to run the bolt quick so I FL resize every time. Durring die setup I will take a fired case and chamber it, then lube and run through the FL die making adjustments and repeating until the resistance is gone. The idea is to just bump the neck back enough for smooth chambering, no need to overwork the brass, generally .001 bump is good.
Just my method, many just neck size but your on a tactical forum and most here run the bolt.
Kirk R
If your running the brass through the same chamber you can get away with neck sizing only for a few to multiple firings, but you will need to FL resize at some point unless you can deal with tight bolt syndrome. I run matches primarily and need to be able to run the bolt quick so I FL resize every time. Durring die setup I will take a fired case and chamber it, then lube and run through the FL die making adjustments and repeating until the resistance is gone. The idea is to just bump the neck back enough for smooth chambering, no need to overwork the brass, generally .001 bump is good.
Just my method, many just neck size but your on a tactical forum and most here run the bolt.
Kirk R
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
I am of a little different opinion. I usually FL size, then neck size once or maybe twice between FL sizing. I know the problem 427cobra speaks of, I've seen it and its not fun to deal with. But doing it as prescribed above I have never had a problem chambering a round. I'm sure it depends on the cartridge and the pressure it operates at, but it has worked for me for quite some time. And I haven't bought any .308 brass in years.
I am of a little different opinion. I usually FL size, then neck size once or maybe twice between FL sizing. I know the problem 427cobra speaks of, I've seen it and its not fun to deal with. But doing it as prescribed above I have never had a problem chambering a round. I'm sure it depends on the cartridge and the pressure it operates at, but it has worked for me for quite some time. And I haven't bought any .308 brass in years.
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
I have NEVER FL sized my Lapua 308 Brass, I have never had "tight bolt syndrome", I run my rifles in tac matches, bigh power matches, and hunt with them. I have never had a reason to FL size, neck sizing works fine, but then again, I would guess this depends on your load, the rifle, and a few other things. YMMV Cheers and Happy Veteran's Day All!
I have NEVER FL sized my Lapua 308 Brass, I have never had "tight bolt syndrome", I run my rifles in tac matches, bigh power matches, and hunt with them. I have never had a reason to FL size, neck sizing works fine, but then again, I would guess this depends on your load, the rifle, and a few other things. YMMV Cheers and Happy Veteran's Day All!
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SOCAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have NEVER FL sized my Lapua 308 Brass, I have never had "tight bolt syndrome", I run my rifles in tac matches, bigh power matches, and hunt with them. I have never had a reason to FL size, neck sizing works fine, but then again, I would guess this depends on your load, the rifle, and a few other things. YMMV Cheers and Happy Veteran's Day All! </div></div>
I would assume that you are not shooting a very hot load. I have a .22BR that does exactly the same thing. If I were shooting matches I would set the FL die to bump the shoulder .001 each time for easy chambering.
Regards,Paul
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SOCAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have NEVER FL sized my Lapua 308 Brass, I have never had "tight bolt syndrome", I run my rifles in tac matches, bigh power matches, and hunt with them. I have never had a reason to FL size, neck sizing works fine, but then again, I would guess this depends on your load, the rifle, and a few other things. YMMV Cheers and Happy Veteran's Day All! </div></div>
I would assume that you are not shooting a very hot load. I have a .22BR that does exactly the same thing. If I were shooting matches I would set the FL die to bump the shoulder .001 each time for easy chambering.
Regards,Paul
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
I'm also an advocate of FLSing every time, with the die set to bump the shoulder a few thousandths of an inch.
I've fallen victim to all of the issues that befall someone that neck sizes only:
1. Stiff bolt closure
2. Galled lugs
3. Stuck rounds
These issues have ended my day on a couple of occassions. I've seen this same fate befall MANY other shooters.
I'm also an advocate of FLSing every time, with the die set to bump the shoulder a few thousandths of an inch.
I've fallen victim to all of the issues that befall someone that neck sizes only:
1. Stiff bolt closure
2. Galled lugs
3. Stuck rounds
These issues have ended my day on a couple of occassions. I've seen this same fate befall MANY other shooters.
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
I'm slowly becoming an advocate for FL sizing. It's usually more concentric, you can generate higher pressure with less powder, and it always feeds reliably. Invest in a quality FL die and learn how to set it up like the guys above described.
In my experiments I have found some interesting facts comparing the two methods. I was taught that NS, because of the fireformed chamber, will be more accurate and enhance brass life, and I have found neither to be totally true on their own. Accuracy really depends on many other factors, the least of them being the sizing of the body of the case; but consistently I have found better concentricity (that is, less runout) of cases FL sized VS cases NS only, and especially against cases NS and then run through a body die. And reducing runout is a major step forward towards producing more consistent, and thus more accurate, ammunition. Number two, brass life: I don't know about you guys, but the necks have been cracking on my cases before the heads separate, I can't speak for everyone here. And the neck gets worked every time, so unless I can eliminate working the neck, there's no difference between working the neck every time and working the neck every time while also working the body.
I'm currently in the midst of a comparison of annealing vs not annealing to see if that has any benefits to case life. I don't even want to sway the outcome with my own opinion so I won't speculate, but early indications are that annealing has a greater benefit to case life than the method of sizing.
I'm slowly becoming an advocate for FL sizing. It's usually more concentric, you can generate higher pressure with less powder, and it always feeds reliably. Invest in a quality FL die and learn how to set it up like the guys above described.
In my experiments I have found some interesting facts comparing the two methods. I was taught that NS, because of the fireformed chamber, will be more accurate and enhance brass life, and I have found neither to be totally true on their own. Accuracy really depends on many other factors, the least of them being the sizing of the body of the case; but consistently I have found better concentricity (that is, less runout) of cases FL sized VS cases NS only, and especially against cases NS and then run through a body die. And reducing runout is a major step forward towards producing more consistent, and thus more accurate, ammunition. Number two, brass life: I don't know about you guys, but the necks have been cracking on my cases before the heads separate, I can't speak for everyone here. And the neck gets worked every time, so unless I can eliminate working the neck, there's no difference between working the neck every time and working the neck every time while also working the body.
I'm currently in the midst of a comparison of annealing vs not annealing to see if that has any benefits to case life. I don't even want to sway the outcome with my own opinion so I won't speculate, but early indications are that annealing has a greater benefit to case life than the method of sizing.
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm also an advocate of FLSing every time, with the die set to bump the shoulder a few thousandths of an inch.
I've fallen victim to all of the issues that befall someone that neck sizes only:
1. Stiff bolt closure
2. Galled lugs
3. Stuck rounds
These issues have ended my day on a couple of occassions. I've seen this same fate befall MANY other shooters. </div></div>
^^^^THIS. My sentiments and experience to a tee.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm also an advocate of FLSing every time, with the die set to bump the shoulder a few thousandths of an inch.
I've fallen victim to all of the issues that befall someone that neck sizes only:
1. Stiff bolt closure
2. Galled lugs
3. Stuck rounds
These issues have ended my day on a couple of occassions. I've seen this same fate befall MANY other shooters. </div></div>
^^^^THIS. My sentiments and experience to a tee.
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanMcIntyre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm slowly becoming an advocate for FL sizing. It's usually more concentric, you can generate higher pressure with less powder, and it always feeds reliably. Invest in a quality FL die and learn how to set it up like the guys above described.
In my experiments I have found some interesting facts comparing the two methods. I was taught that NS, because of the fireformed chamber, will be more accurate and enhance brass life, and I have found neither to be totally true on their own. Accuracy really depends on many other factors, the least of them being the sizing of the body of the case; but consistently I have found better concentricity (that is, less runout) of cases FL sized VS cases NS only, and especially against cases NS and then run through a body die. And reducing runout is a major step forward towards producing more consistent, and thus more accurate, ammunition. Number two, brass life: I don't know about you guys, but the necks have been cracking on my cases before the heads separate, I can't speak for everyone here. And the neck gets worked every time, so unless I can eliminate working the neck, there's no difference between working the neck every time and working the neck every time while also working the body.
I'm currently in the midst of a comparison of annealing vs not annealing to see if that has any benefits to case life. I don't even want to sway the outcome with my own opinion so I won't speculate, but early indications are that annealing has a greater benefit to case life than the method of sizing. </div></div>
So are you saying that FS produced more concentric ammo than NS and then body sizing? I thought it was the other way around.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanMcIntyre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm slowly becoming an advocate for FL sizing. It's usually more concentric, you can generate higher pressure with less powder, and it always feeds reliably. Invest in a quality FL die and learn how to set it up like the guys above described.
In my experiments I have found some interesting facts comparing the two methods. I was taught that NS, because of the fireformed chamber, will be more accurate and enhance brass life, and I have found neither to be totally true on their own. Accuracy really depends on many other factors, the least of them being the sizing of the body of the case; but consistently I have found better concentricity (that is, less runout) of cases FL sized VS cases NS only, and especially against cases NS and then run through a body die. And reducing runout is a major step forward towards producing more consistent, and thus more accurate, ammunition. Number two, brass life: I don't know about you guys, but the necks have been cracking on my cases before the heads separate, I can't speak for everyone here. And the neck gets worked every time, so unless I can eliminate working the neck, there's no difference between working the neck every time and working the neck every time while also working the body.
I'm currently in the midst of a comparison of annealing vs not annealing to see if that has any benefits to case life. I don't even want to sway the outcome with my own opinion so I won't speculate, but early indications are that annealing has a greater benefit to case life than the method of sizing. </div></div>
So are you saying that FS produced more concentric ammo than NS and then body sizing? I thought it was the other way around.
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So are you saying that FS produced more concentric ammo than NS and then body sizing? I thought it was the other way around. </div></div>
I can't speak for everyone, so test for yourself and see what you come up with, but yes, with my tools, I get better ammo FL sizing. On paper, it makes sense: NS only, the chamber may have a different axis than the NS die, and the body die a third axis from that; while a FL die aligns the brass neck and body along one axis.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So are you saying that FS produced more concentric ammo than NS and then body sizing? I thought it was the other way around. </div></div>
I can't speak for everyone, so test for yourself and see what you come up with, but yes, with my tools, I get better ammo FL sizing. On paper, it makes sense: NS only, the chamber may have a different axis than the NS die, and the body die a third axis from that; while a FL die aligns the brass neck and body along one axis.
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
I'm going out next week with 20 ns and 20 fl sized and shoot 4 five shot groups with each out of curiosity.All brass is previously fired in same gun.If all shoots the same I will keep repeating each week to see when I see a difference.This is why I love shooting,always learning some cool shit!
I'm going out next week with 20 ns and 20 fl sized and shoot 4 five shot groups with each out of curiosity.All brass is previously fired in same gun.If all shoots the same I will keep repeating each week to see when I see a difference.This is why I love shooting,always learning some cool shit!
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanMcIntyre</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So are you saying that FS produced more concentric ammo than NS and then body sizing? I thought it was the other way around. </div></div>
I can't speak for everyone, so test for yourself and see what you come up with, but yes, with my tools, I get better ammo FL sizing. On paper, it makes sense: NS only, the chamber may have a different axis than the NS die, and the body die a third axis from that; while a FL die aligns the brass neck and body along one axis. </div></div>
Interesting. Out of curiosity, are you using a match barrels or factory?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanMcIntyre</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So are you saying that FS produced more concentric ammo than NS and then body sizing? I thought it was the other way around. </div></div>
I can't speak for everyone, so test for yourself and see what you come up with, but yes, with my tools, I get better ammo FL sizing. On paper, it makes sense: NS only, the chamber may have a different axis than the NS die, and the body die a third axis from that; while a FL die aligns the brass neck and body along one axis. </div></div>
Interesting. Out of curiosity, are you using a match barrels or factory?
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
Uh oh, don't flame me - factory barrels for the most part (not all factory chambers). If I haven't said it before then allow me to reiterate a point I make often: neither my rifles nor I could discern any significant advantage betwixt NS and FL sizing based on results on the target. What I was referring to was overall concentricity; my Hornady and (not mine) Sinclair concentricity tools have repeatedly indicated FL sizing to be yielding straighter rounds. The one exception to this, within margin for error, is the Lee collet die, oddly.
And to restate a point I made a few posts above, accuracy is achieved through many factors other than the way you size your brass. I wouldn't dare presume one method better than another for anyone else; as long as they find combinations of production, tools, and components that end up with the results they want. There's methods that are better for me and there's methods that are better for you.
But if you're asking me this because you haven't measured runout on your assembled rounds and just want an idea of what you could expect, then my answer in order of most concentric to least (when only taking into consideration sizing, and based only on my experience with the tools I have at my disposal): FL sizing, Lee Collet, NS & fireformed / NS & Body die. This assumes everything else being equal, including how you prep, trim, handle, clean, seat, crimp, and store your ammo and which position Neptune resides compared to Jupiter's 12th moon. Even a different batch of bullets will change this reading dramatically, more so than how you size. In like, the difference between FL only and NS only might be .001" - we're splitting hairs here. Very few rifles exist that could take advantage of that sort of difference, and even fewer people talented enough to shoot it.
Uh oh, don't flame me - factory barrels for the most part (not all factory chambers). If I haven't said it before then allow me to reiterate a point I make often: neither my rifles nor I could discern any significant advantage betwixt NS and FL sizing based on results on the target. What I was referring to was overall concentricity; my Hornady and (not mine) Sinclair concentricity tools have repeatedly indicated FL sizing to be yielding straighter rounds. The one exception to this, within margin for error, is the Lee collet die, oddly.
And to restate a point I made a few posts above, accuracy is achieved through many factors other than the way you size your brass. I wouldn't dare presume one method better than another for anyone else; as long as they find combinations of production, tools, and components that end up with the results they want. There's methods that are better for me and there's methods that are better for you.
But if you're asking me this because you haven't measured runout on your assembled rounds and just want an idea of what you could expect, then my answer in order of most concentric to least (when only taking into consideration sizing, and based only on my experience with the tools I have at my disposal): FL sizing, Lee Collet, NS & fireformed / NS & Body die. This assumes everything else being equal, including how you prep, trim, handle, clean, seat, crimp, and store your ammo and which position Neptune resides compared to Jupiter's 12th moon. Even a different batch of bullets will change this reading dramatically, more so than how you size. In like, the difference between FL only and NS only might be .001" - we're splitting hairs here. Very few rifles exist that could take advantage of that sort of difference, and even fewer people talented enough to shoot it.
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanMcIntyre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uh oh, don't flame me - factory barrels for the most part (not all factory chambers). If I haven't said it before then allow me to reiterate a point I make often: neither my rifles nor I could discern any significant advantage betwixt NS and FL sizing based on results on the target. What I was referring to was overall concentricity; my Hornady and (not mine) Sinclair concentricity tools have repeatedly indicated FL sizing to be yielding straighter rounds. The one exception to this, within margin for error, is the Lee collet die, oddly.
And to restate a point I made a few posts above, accuracy is achieved through many factors other than the way you size your brass. I wouldn't dare presume one method better than another for anyone else; as long as they find combinations of production, tools, and components that end up with the results they want. There's methods that are better for me and there's methods that are better for you. </div></div>
I use factory barrel's as well. I was just wondering because I know that some methods have different results depending on if your using a 'sloppy' factory barrel or a tight match barrel.
I now noticed that you were talking about the concentricity and not actual produced accuracy.
Thanks
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanMcIntyre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uh oh, don't flame me - factory barrels for the most part (not all factory chambers). If I haven't said it before then allow me to reiterate a point I make often: neither my rifles nor I could discern any significant advantage betwixt NS and FL sizing based on results on the target. What I was referring to was overall concentricity; my Hornady and (not mine) Sinclair concentricity tools have repeatedly indicated FL sizing to be yielding straighter rounds. The one exception to this, within margin for error, is the Lee collet die, oddly.
And to restate a point I made a few posts above, accuracy is achieved through many factors other than the way you size your brass. I wouldn't dare presume one method better than another for anyone else; as long as they find combinations of production, tools, and components that end up with the results they want. There's methods that are better for me and there's methods that are better for you. </div></div>
I use factory barrel's as well. I was just wondering because I know that some methods have different results depending on if your using a 'sloppy' factory barrel or a tight match barrel.
I now noticed that you were talking about the concentricity and not actual produced accuracy.
Thanks
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
Well, it was all the long way of saying there's fewer negatives to each method than there are positives to each. haha
I miss living in the valley, how are you liking the warm weather?
Well, it was all the long way of saying there's fewer negatives to each method than there are positives to each. haha
I miss living in the valley, how are you liking the warm weather?
Re: Neck sizeing vs. full length?
I use my rifle's chamber dictate how much I size the case. I adjust the die to the point where the bolt just closes with no resistance. These settings change the more the brass is shot so the sizing die may have to be re-adjusted as the brass work hardens. Annealing will mitigate this but that is a whole other topic.
I use my rifle's chamber dictate how much I size the case. I adjust the die to the point where the bolt just closes with no resistance. These settings change the more the brass is shot so the sizing die may have to be re-adjusted as the brass work hardens. Annealing will mitigate this but that is a whole other topic.
