So here we go. I'm seeing so many posts about folks using bushing dies. Are there many people that have experienced neck tension issues due to varying brass thickness??? I know a few people that claim they have experienced this and that's why they went to the Lee collet die to simplify & minimize. I do believe that certain presses are better suited for certain types of neck sizing dies. For example, I believe the presses that utilize "cam-over" are better suited for bushing NS dies and presses that do NOT utilize "cam-over" are better suited for collet NS dies. Just something to talk about, not for anyone to get bent out of shape.
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Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
- Thread starter boltgunluvr
- Start date
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
And...I've been reading that people have been removing a part from some of their NS bushing dies because they're having some problems. Would like to know what & why. I've NEVER had any issues with my collet NS dies.
And...I've been reading that people have been removing a part from some of their NS bushing dies because they're having some problems. Would like to know what & why. I've NEVER had any issues with my collet NS dies.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
When I neck size I use a Collet Die. I am shooting a rifle with a factory chamber so I'm not turning my necks to fit a chamber, just to provide uniform neck tension. With the collet die the neck is formed to the mandrel which tends to form the neck straight and along the axis of the cartridge.
With a bushing die, the finished diameter of the neck relies on the expander ball (if used). Accuracy relies on all the necks being of the same thickness and when the ball is withdrawn through the neck it tends to follow the line of least resistance. If one side of he neck is slightly more "dense" than the other, the neck is sized off center. The Collet Die is not prone to this.
I have recently started to follow the neck sizing with the Collet die by running a Sinclair Expander mandrel through the neck of each sized case. Some may say this is redundant but I've found the results worthwhile. I now find that the seating force is more uniform when I follow this process. Groups have shrunk as well.
Now, it's up to me to just put the "group" where it belongs, in the center of the target
One thing about the Lee Collet Die is that it's inexpensive enough for one to try.
Also, I leave mine pretty loose in the press so the die follows any misalignment of the case. Seems to help further reduce runout.
When I neck size I use a Collet Die. I am shooting a rifle with a factory chamber so I'm not turning my necks to fit a chamber, just to provide uniform neck tension. With the collet die the neck is formed to the mandrel which tends to form the neck straight and along the axis of the cartridge.
With a bushing die, the finished diameter of the neck relies on the expander ball (if used). Accuracy relies on all the necks being of the same thickness and when the ball is withdrawn through the neck it tends to follow the line of least resistance. If one side of he neck is slightly more "dense" than the other, the neck is sized off center. The Collet Die is not prone to this.
I have recently started to follow the neck sizing with the Collet die by running a Sinclair Expander mandrel through the neck of each sized case. Some may say this is redundant but I've found the results worthwhile. I now find that the seating force is more uniform when I follow this process. Groups have shrunk as well.
Now, it's up to me to just put the "group" where it belongs, in the center of the target
One thing about the Lee Collet Die is that it's inexpensive enough for one to try.
Also, I leave mine pretty loose in the press so the die follows any misalignment of the case. Seems to help further reduce runout.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
I just realized that I have a Lee Collet neck die (i moved and forgot about it), but I never used it because I always full length size my brass for competition. Are there any real advantages to using the Collet die compared to full length resizing?...Im up for trying anything that will help accuracy especially at 300 yards.
I just realized that I have a Lee Collet neck die (i moved and forgot about it), but I never used it because I always full length size my brass for competition. Are there any real advantages to using the Collet die compared to full length resizing?...Im up for trying anything that will help accuracy especially at 300 yards.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
IMHO Lee Collet Dies overwork the shit out of brass, and your stuck with whatever the mandrell size is for neck tension, with a bushing die you can tailor the neck tension to your needs or accuracy nodes. Just let the NS only thing go, get a Redding Type S FL die, add the floating carbide expander to it and select a bushing that allows the floating expander ball to barely kiss the neck on the way out, concentricity will be good and the ammo will feed and fire accurately, again I find no reason to NS only, I have disproven every single benefit the NS only crowd says with brass that is FL everytime.
IMHO Lee Collet Dies overwork the shit out of brass, and your stuck with whatever the mandrell size is for neck tension, with a bushing die you can tailor the neck tension to your needs or accuracy nodes. Just let the NS only thing go, get a Redding Type S FL die, add the floating carbide expander to it and select a bushing that allows the floating expander ball to barely kiss the neck on the way out, concentricity will be good and the ammo will feed and fire accurately, again I find no reason to NS only, I have disproven every single benefit the NS only crowd says with brass that is FL everytime.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<span style="font-style: italic">"I believe the presses that utilize "cam-over" are better suited for bushing NS dies and presses that do NOT utilize "cam-over" are better suited for collet NS dies. Just something to talk about,"</span>
Press "cam-over" is a much misunderstood thing and it has much less to do with any die set up than it's accorded. Adjust any die in any press to obtain the desired results and you're done.
Lee's collet die can't possibly 'overwork' cases, they only work the neck and once the inside of the neck is formed to the mandrel nothing more can possibly happen.
Seems most of those who 'hate the low neck tension' they get with Lee's collet die either aren't using it correctly or really don't have a clue what the effective limit of "neck tension"/bullet grip is.
<span style="font-style: italic">"I believe the presses that utilize "cam-over" are better suited for bushing NS dies and presses that do NOT utilize "cam-over" are better suited for collet NS dies. Just something to talk about,"</span>
Press "cam-over" is a much misunderstood thing and it has much less to do with any die set up than it's accorded. Adjust any die in any press to obtain the desired results and you're done.
Lee's collet die can't possibly 'overwork' cases, they only work the neck and once the inside of the neck is formed to the mandrel nothing more can possibly happen.
Seems most of those who 'hate the low neck tension' they get with Lee's collet die either aren't using it correctly or really don't have a clue what the effective limit of "neck tension"/bullet grip is.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO Lee Collet Dies overwork the shit out of brass, and your stuck with whatever the mandrell size is for neck tension, with a bushing die you can tailor the neck tension to your needs or accuracy nodes. Just let the NS only thing go, get a Redding Type S FL die, add the floating carbide expander to it and select a bushing that allows the floating expander ball to barely kiss the neck on the way out, concentricity will be good and the ammo will feed and fire accurately, again I find no reason to NS only, I have disproven every single benefit the NS only crowd says with brass that is FL everytime. </div></div>
Why do you believe a collet NS die over works brass? How often are you required to trim your brass due to using FL sizing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO Lee Collet Dies overwork the shit out of brass, and your stuck with whatever the mandrell size is for neck tension, with a bushing die you can tailor the neck tension to your needs or accuracy nodes. Just let the NS only thing go, get a Redding Type S FL die, add the floating carbide expander to it and select a bushing that allows the floating expander ball to barely kiss the neck on the way out, concentricity will be good and the ammo will feed and fire accurately, again I find no reason to NS only, I have disproven every single benefit the NS only crowd says with brass that is FL everytime. </div></div>
Why do you believe a collet NS die over works brass? How often are you required to trim your brass due to using FL sizing?
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">"I believe the presses that utilize "cam-over" are better suited for bushing NS dies and presses that do NOT utilize "cam-over" are better suited for collet NS dies. Just something to talk about,"</span>
Press "cam-over" is a much misunderstood thing and it has much less to do with any die set up than it's accorded. Adjust any die in any press to obtain the desired results and you're done.
Lee's collet die can't possibly 'overwork' cases, they only work the neck and once the inside of the neck is formed to the mandrel nothing more can possibly happen.
Seems most of those who 'hate the low neck tension' they get with Lee's collet die either aren't using it correctly or really don't have a clue what the effective limit of "neck tension"/bullet grip is. </div></div>
I agree with you in the fact that cam-over is misunderstood. However, some fellow shooters of mine have come to acknowledge that they are not able to take full advantage of the simplicity of the LEE collet NS die because they are using a cam-over press. For instance, they must readjust their die when they use different brand of brass/thickness. For those of us that adhere to our Lee Classic/Challenger style without cam-over, just aply a little more pressure. (I am aware this is NOT an acceptable practice for the hardcore benchrest shooters because one will have a slight variance in neck tension) I've got mine collet NS dies set where I only use an index finger on the press. oh so easy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">"I believe the presses that utilize "cam-over" are better suited for bushing NS dies and presses that do NOT utilize "cam-over" are better suited for collet NS dies. Just something to talk about,"</span>
Press "cam-over" is a much misunderstood thing and it has much less to do with any die set up than it's accorded. Adjust any die in any press to obtain the desired results and you're done.
Lee's collet die can't possibly 'overwork' cases, they only work the neck and once the inside of the neck is formed to the mandrel nothing more can possibly happen.
Seems most of those who 'hate the low neck tension' they get with Lee's collet die either aren't using it correctly or really don't have a clue what the effective limit of "neck tension"/bullet grip is. </div></div>
I agree with you in the fact that cam-over is misunderstood. However, some fellow shooters of mine have come to acknowledge that they are not able to take full advantage of the simplicity of the LEE collet NS die because they are using a cam-over press. For instance, they must readjust their die when they use different brand of brass/thickness. For those of us that adhere to our Lee Classic/Challenger style without cam-over, just aply a little more pressure. (I am aware this is NOT an acceptable practice for the hardcore benchrest shooters because one will have a slight variance in neck tension) I've got mine collet NS dies set where I only use an index finger on the press. oh so easy.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<span style="font-style: italic">" some ... are not able to take full advantage of the simplicity of the LEE collet NS die <span style="text-decoration: underline">because they are using a cam-over press</span>"</span>
Humm. ?? I've used Lee's collet neck dies in my RC II for some 27 years with little diddling with die adjustments (which really aren't all that difficult to accomplish anyway). Of course I only use it for highly accurate rifles; I don't neck size for my mod 94 .30-30 or 03A3 Springfield. I skim turn the necks of my four accurate rifle's cases so the neck thickness variation isn't too great to start with.
<span style="font-style: italic">" some ... are not able to take full advantage of the simplicity of the LEE collet NS die <span style="text-decoration: underline">because they are using a cam-over press</span>"</span>
Humm. ?? I've used Lee's collet neck dies in my RC II for some 27 years with little diddling with die adjustments (which really aren't all that difficult to accomplish anyway). Of course I only use it for highly accurate rifles; I don't neck size for my mod 94 .30-30 or 03A3 Springfield. I skim turn the necks of my four accurate rifle's cases so the neck thickness variation isn't too great to start with.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO Lee Collet Dies overwork the shit out of brass, and your stuck with whatever the mandrell size is for neck tension, with a bushing die you can tailor the neck tension to your needs or accuracy nodes. Just let the NS only thing go, get a Redding Type S FL die, add the floating carbide expander to it and select a bushing that allows the floating expander ball to barely kiss the neck on the way out, concentricity will be good and the ammo will feed and fire accurately, again I find no reason to NS only, I have disproven every single benefit the NS only crowd says with brass that is FL everytime. </div></div>
Why do you believe a collet NS die over works brass? How often are you required to trim your brass due to using FL sizing? </div></div>
I believe the Collet die over works the brass by forcing it under pressure against the mandrel, a bushing is simply sizing it down. 99.9% of the people who reload are over trimming there brass, 2.005 is too short for most 308 chambers, Sinclair sells a chamber length gauge, I use it to determine my trim length, my 308 is 2.020, and my 260 is 2.030, both of those numbers are .010 shorter than the chamber, usually after two firings my Giraud trimmer starts its majic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO Lee Collet Dies overwork the shit out of brass, and your stuck with whatever the mandrell size is for neck tension, with a bushing die you can tailor the neck tension to your needs or accuracy nodes. Just let the NS only thing go, get a Redding Type S FL die, add the floating carbide expander to it and select a bushing that allows the floating expander ball to barely kiss the neck on the way out, concentricity will be good and the ammo will feed and fire accurately, again I find no reason to NS only, I have disproven every single benefit the NS only crowd says with brass that is FL everytime. </div></div>
Why do you believe a collet NS die over works brass? How often are you required to trim your brass due to using FL sizing? </div></div>
I believe the Collet die over works the brass by forcing it under pressure against the mandrel, a bushing is simply sizing it down. 99.9% of the people who reload are over trimming there brass, 2.005 is too short for most 308 chambers, Sinclair sells a chamber length gauge, I use it to determine my trim length, my 308 is 2.020, and my 260 is 2.030, both of those numbers are .010 shorter than the chamber, usually after two firings my Giraud trimmer starts its majic.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
Full length size. Ammo works always. Then none of this matters. Spending more time behind the trigger - worry about that.
Full length size. Ammo works always. Then none of this matters. Spending more time behind the trigger - worry about that.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
"I believe the Collet die over works the brass by forcing it under pressure against the mandrel,"
Ah...not so. The collet/mandrel pressure is far below the pressure required to extrude cold brass and any less pressure than that means nothing to the metal. It's stretching and bending that cold works metal, not simple static pressure. In fact, the pressure of a normal charge is far in excess of the pressure contained in that die, the deliberatly light alum top cap of the collet die is designed to blow out well before reaching any such pressures.
"I believe the Collet die over works the brass by forcing it under pressure against the mandrel,"
Ah...not so. The collet/mandrel pressure is far below the pressure required to extrude cold brass and any less pressure than that means nothing to the metal. It's stretching and bending that cold works metal, not simple static pressure. In fact, the pressure of a normal charge is far in excess of the pressure contained in that die, the deliberatly light alum top cap of the collet die is designed to blow out well before reaching any such pressures.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
Btw, I like both versions of NS, but I prefer the collet due to simplicity and not ever having to be concerned about buying more bushings. I like what I'm seeing in the postings, a very nice civil conversation.
Btw, I like both versions of NS, but I prefer the collet due to simplicity and not ever having to be concerned about buying more bushings. I like what I'm seeing in the postings, a very nice civil conversation.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO Lee Collet Dies overwork the shit out of brass, and your stuck with whatever the mandrell size is for neck tension, with a bushing die you can tailor the neck tension to your needs or accuracy nodes. Just let the NS only thing go, get a Redding Type S FL die, add the floating carbide expander to it and select a bushing that allows the floating expander ball to barely kiss the neck on the way out, concentricity will be good and the ammo will feed and fire accurately, again I find no reason to NS only, I have disproven every single benefit the NS only crowd says with brass that is FL everytime. </div></div>
Why do you believe a collet NS die over works brass? How often are you required to trim your brass due to using FL sizing? </div></div>
I believe the Collet die over works the brass by forcing it under pressure against the mandrel, a bushing is simply sizing it down. 99.9% of the people who reload are over trimming there brass, 2.005 is too short for most 308 chambers, Sinclair sells a chamber length gauge, I use it to determine my trim length, my 308 is 2.020, and my 260 is 2.030, both of those numbers are .010 shorter than the chamber, usually after two firings my Giraud trimmer starts its majic. </div></div>
I agree that people are over trimming brass and I think they doing it because they a) don't understand neck tension b) they don't want to do it again so they trim excessively c) they don't know how to follow directions d) all the above.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO Lee Collet Dies overwork the shit out of brass, and your stuck with whatever the mandrell size is for neck tension, with a bushing die you can tailor the neck tension to your needs or accuracy nodes. Just let the NS only thing go, get a Redding Type S FL die, add the floating carbide expander to it and select a bushing that allows the floating expander ball to barely kiss the neck on the way out, concentricity will be good and the ammo will feed and fire accurately, again I find no reason to NS only, I have disproven every single benefit the NS only crowd says with brass that is FL everytime. </div></div>
Why do you believe a collet NS die over works brass? How often are you required to trim your brass due to using FL sizing? </div></div>
I believe the Collet die over works the brass by forcing it under pressure against the mandrel, a bushing is simply sizing it down. 99.9% of the people who reload are over trimming there brass, 2.005 is too short for most 308 chambers, Sinclair sells a chamber length gauge, I use it to determine my trim length, my 308 is 2.020, and my 260 is 2.030, both of those numbers are .010 shorter than the chamber, usually after two firings my Giraud trimmer starts its majic. </div></div>
I agree that people are over trimming brass and I think they doing it because they a) don't understand neck tension b) they don't want to do it again so they trim excessively c) they don't know how to follow directions d) all the above.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
I think the collet die is just awesome...
I use the collet die since you know the inside of the neck will be perfect in dimension that way... Now you know that any thickness issue will now be on the outside of the neck... then turn the neck and then the outside is trued up too.
A bushing will true the outside and you hope for the best with an expander ball.
The best part about a collet die is that it's 20.00.
IMHO, even the bushing guys could benefit from using a collet die in combination with a neck turner to initially uniform their neck walls. Once that is done then using a bushing die without an expander ball would be ideal.
I don't bother with the bushings. I never have to worry about seating consistancy with the collet... the neck walls can move around and as long as I'm not making contact with the chamber, the effect of that will be less since the seating pressure on the bullet will remain the same with the collet die as long as I keep my brass well annealed.
If you want more seating tension, you can always turn down the mandrel but, I've never done that to any of my collets.
I think the collet die is just awesome...
I use the collet die since you know the inside of the neck will be perfect in dimension that way... Now you know that any thickness issue will now be on the outside of the neck... then turn the neck and then the outside is trued up too.
A bushing will true the outside and you hope for the best with an expander ball.
The best part about a collet die is that it's 20.00.
IMHO, even the bushing guys could benefit from using a collet die in combination with a neck turner to initially uniform their neck walls. Once that is done then using a bushing die without an expander ball would be ideal.
I don't bother with the bushings. I never have to worry about seating consistancy with the collet... the neck walls can move around and as long as I'm not making contact with the chamber, the effect of that will be less since the seating pressure on the bullet will remain the same with the collet die as long as I keep my brass well annealed.
If you want more seating tension, you can always turn down the mandrel but, I've never done that to any of my collets.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
I've tried both,and prefer Lee's collet,it's simple and it works!Different brands of brass vary in neck thickness,LEE'S works with all. The cost is alot Less too. Very good discussion.
I've tried both,and prefer Lee's collet,it's simple and it works!Different brands of brass vary in neck thickness,LEE'S works with all. The cost is alot Less too. Very good discussion.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
Chaulk up another vote for FLSing. I remove the expander button, and use a Sinclair expander die with the "neck turning" mandrel, for .002" neck tension.
I find it quite humorous when folks I'm shooting with (and am outshooting) tell me I should necksize for better accuracy. Even more humorous when they tell me they've never had a stuck round, and then DNF the event due to a stuck round...
Chaulk up another vote for FLSing. I remove the expander button, and use a Sinclair expander die with the "neck turning" mandrel, for .002" neck tension.
I find it quite humorous when folks I'm shooting with (and am outshooting) tell me I should necksize for better accuracy. Even more humorous when they tell me they've never had a stuck round, and then DNF the event due to a stuck round...
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
Im not going to lie, but a couple of things that concern me with going from FL sizing to neck sizing is having cases get stuck in my action during a competition and having to anneal my cases. I dont really have any experience or knowledge with annealing my own cases.
Im not going to lie, but a couple of things that concern me with going from FL sizing to neck sizing is having cases get stuck in my action during a competition and having to anneal my cases. I dont really have any experience or knowledge with annealing my own cases.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CT308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not going to lie, but a couple of things that concern me with going from FL sizing to neck sizing is having cases get stuck in my action during a competition and having to anneal my cases. I dont really have any experience or knowledge with annealing my own cases. </div></div>
I completely understand your concerns. That's why it is wise to FL size every 3rd or 4th loading. I don't load hot, and in the real world, most of the time the accurate load isn't a hot. I've shot up to 7 times with only N sizing before I finally had to FL size. All that said, I still understand your concerns.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CT308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not going to lie, but a couple of things that concern me with going from FL sizing to neck sizing is having cases get stuck in my action during a competition and having to anneal my cases. I dont really have any experience or knowledge with annealing my own cases. </div></div>
I completely understand your concerns. That's why it is wise to FL size every 3rd or 4th loading. I don't load hot, and in the real world, most of the time the accurate load isn't a hot. I've shot up to 7 times with only N sizing before I finally had to FL size. All that said, I still understand your concerns.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
Thanks boltgun, I think im going to load up some neck sized brass for a practice session and see what my results are. No harm in trying something new.....as long as it isnt during a comp.
Thanks boltgun, I think im going to load up some neck sized brass for a practice session and see what my results are. No harm in trying something new.....as long as it isnt during a comp.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CT308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks boltgun, I think im going to load up some neck sized brass for a practice session and see what my results are. No harm in trying something new.....as long as it isnt during a comp. </div></div>
I have a couple guns that have benefited from NS, but not all. So I don't believe it is the ultimate answer. I think a lot of comes down to other factors also. And I love the fact that its so quick, easy, no lube, etc. It does take some patience to find the sweet spot when your adjusting your die. Which NS die do you have?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CT308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks boltgun, I think im going to load up some neck sized brass for a practice session and see what my results are. No harm in trying something new.....as long as it isnt during a comp. </div></div>
I have a couple guns that have benefited from NS, but not all. So I don't believe it is the ultimate answer. I think a lot of comes down to other factors also. And I love the fact that its so quick, easy, no lube, etc. It does take some patience to find the sweet spot when your adjusting your die. Which NS die do you have?
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
I have a Lee collet die that I was thinking about using. But I use a RCBS FL sizing die rightnow.
I have a Lee collet die that I was thinking about using. But I use a RCBS FL sizing die rightnow.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
I FL size ( with no bushing )every time and use the collet... anneal every other firing. Seems to be a pretty good system to me.
I FL size ( with no bushing )every time and use the collet... anneal every other firing. Seems to be a pretty good system to me.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
Before I sent my .223rem to RW SNYder for rebarreling, It was a factory .223 rem.
I would get a very consistent .6moa using lee collet dies. Sometimes I would get sub half moa groups.
I tried the bushing dies, found no improvement so I stuck with the collet dies.
That's all I'm really concerned with.. It works for me so why try to mess around with it.
I haven't shot the AI yet but I hear a lot of people say I can still use the .223 rem collet die for it which would be awesome.
Before I sent my .223rem to RW SNYder for rebarreling, It was a factory .223 rem.
I would get a very consistent .6moa using lee collet dies. Sometimes I would get sub half moa groups.
I tried the bushing dies, found no improvement so I stuck with the collet dies.
That's all I'm really concerned with.. It works for me so why try to mess around with it.
I haven't shot the AI yet but I hear a lot of people say I can still use the .223 rem collet die for it which would be awesome.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomekeuro85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before I sent my .223rem to RW SNYder for rebarreling, It was a factory .223 rem.
I would get a very consistent .6moa using lee collet dies. Sometimes I would get sub half moa groups.
I tried the bushing dies, found no improvement so I stuck with the collet dies.
That's all I'm really concerned with.. It works for me so why try to mess around with it.
I haven't shot the AI yet but I hear a lot of people say I can still use the .223 rem collet die for it which would be awesome. </div></div>
I've been told this, BUT can not confirm.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomekeuro85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before I sent my .223rem to RW SNYder for rebarreling, It was a factory .223 rem.
I would get a very consistent .6moa using lee collet dies. Sometimes I would get sub half moa groups.
I tried the bushing dies, found no improvement so I stuck with the collet dies.
That's all I'm really concerned with.. It works for me so why try to mess around with it.
I haven't shot the AI yet but I hear a lot of people say I can still use the .223 rem collet die for it which would be awesome. </div></div>
I've been told this, BUT can not confirm.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
I started reloading using a full length RCBS sizing die. The amount of force required on the downstroke let's you know that you must be working the brass. Some bullets would feel tighter than others during the seating process. Recently, I have been sizing using the lee collet NS and reloading for me is much faster and more consistent. Maybe I got lucky and received a good die, but I would put he collet system at the top of the list if you are keeping your brass specific to your bolt rifle.
I started reloading using a full length RCBS sizing die. The amount of force required on the downstroke let's you know that you must be working the brass. Some bullets would feel tighter than others during the seating process. Recently, I have been sizing using the lee collet NS and reloading for me is much faster and more consistent. Maybe I got lucky and received a good die, but I would put he collet system at the top of the list if you are keeping your brass specific to your bolt rifle.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
How do you adjust for the ID/OD of the neck?
for example, I use a .335 bushing for my lapua brass.
how do I know how much to tighten it with the lee die? whether i'm at .334 or .335
How do you adjust for the ID/OD of the neck?
for example, I use a .335 bushing for my lapua brass.
how do I know how much to tighten it with the lee die? whether i'm at .334 or .335
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you adjust for the ID/OD of the neck?
for example, I use a .335 bushing for my lapua brass.
how do I know how much to tighten it with the lee die? whether i'm at .334 or .335 </div></div>
It all depends on how well you adjust the die. The LEE instructions are very straight forward. I only use my index finger when neck sizing with mine...and no lube.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you adjust for the ID/OD of the neck?
for example, I use a .335 bushing for my lapua brass.
how do I know how much to tighten it with the lee die? whether i'm at .334 or .335 </div></div>
It all depends on how well you adjust the die. The LEE instructions are very straight forward. I only use my index finger when neck sizing with mine...and no lube.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
I sometimes double up the Lee collet NS die with a Redding body die to get a more consistent chamber fit. Runout is good too.
I sometimes double up the Lee collet NS die with a Redding body die to get a more consistent chamber fit. Runout is good too.
Re: Neck Sizing.....Bushing Dies vs Collet Dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Btw, I like both versions of NS, but I prefer the collet due to simplicity and not ever having to be concerned about buying more bushings. I like what I'm seeing in the postings, a very nice civil conversation. </div></div>
Only true IF you are happy with the "one size" the lee mandrell gives you. If not, then buy more mandrels and hone to fit which is a hell of a lot more work than a $17 bushing and 20 seconds to put it in.
Brass work hardens with working with any method and tension changes. That is easy to correct with bushing dies or annealing, but not so easy with collet die.
Big mistake to think that collet dies leave variances only on the outside. If you clean up the necks after using a mandrel to true the inside, the outside will remain true also.
That is proven by the old trick of BR shooters using FB bullets was to turn the top .050 of the neck down another .002 after their final overall thickness was turned. Upon first firing, that thinner neck went from the outside to the inside to allow them to use the larger diameter now on the inside as a inline bullet seating arrangement and to prevent shaving copper from the bases of the FB bullet.
Forget who here posted it, but another proven trick to ensure uniform tension is to FL size the brass, then open up with a mandrel and THEN NS down to desired dimension. That has been proven time and time again to give the most uniformity in neck tension, especially if you are not annealing.
As for the trimming issue, IMO this is a red herring. We spend $K's one high end guns, scopes etc; get meticulous about weighing charges, measuring bullets and seating but are worried about trimming occasionally? Think about it, is that really a big worry?
I have a wilson trimmer and can trim a 100 cases in less than 15 minutes easily.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Btw, I like both versions of NS, but I prefer the collet due to simplicity and not ever having to be concerned about buying more bushings. I like what I'm seeing in the postings, a very nice civil conversation. </div></div>
Only true IF you are happy with the "one size" the lee mandrell gives you. If not, then buy more mandrels and hone to fit which is a hell of a lot more work than a $17 bushing and 20 seconds to put it in.
Brass work hardens with working with any method and tension changes. That is easy to correct with bushing dies or annealing, but not so easy with collet die.
Big mistake to think that collet dies leave variances only on the outside. If you clean up the necks after using a mandrel to true the inside, the outside will remain true also.
That is proven by the old trick of BR shooters using FB bullets was to turn the top .050 of the neck down another .002 after their final overall thickness was turned. Upon first firing, that thinner neck went from the outside to the inside to allow them to use the larger diameter now on the inside as a inline bullet seating arrangement and to prevent shaving copper from the bases of the FB bullet.
Forget who here posted it, but another proven trick to ensure uniform tension is to FL size the brass, then open up with a mandrel and THEN NS down to desired dimension. That has been proven time and time again to give the most uniformity in neck tension, especially if you are not annealing.
As for the trimming issue, IMO this is a red herring. We spend $K's one high end guns, scopes etc; get meticulous about weighing charges, measuring bullets and seating but are worried about trimming occasionally? Think about it, is that really a big worry?
I have a wilson trimmer and can trim a 100 cases in less than 15 minutes easily.
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