Neck sizing

[jasonZ]

Quick question for ya. Could a guy neck size 06 ammo with a 308 win neck die? I'm kind of curious if anybody has ever tried or has any info on it? I sort of wondered since the bullet size is the same, but I really don't know if the tension is different. The shoulder is some what. That's what I'm curious about really. It may be an ignorant question, but its been rattling around in my brain as of late. Thanks

 

[armorpl8chikn]

See no reason why you couldn't if you are careful. Can't imagine why anyone would want to, but then I can't fathom why people still neck size at all, unless they live in Cuba and are irretrievably stuck in the '50's.

 

[ksthomas]

Absolutely. But, as armorpl8chikn points out, you'd still be neck sizing. F/L size, be done with it and avoid all the pitfalls that you'll invariably wind up stepping in at some point if you insist on Neck Sizing.

 

[damoncali]

The first time you get a bolt jammed on a loaded round so that you can neither open nor close the bolt without pounding on the handle is the last time you will neck size. Ask me how I know.

 

[Rhyno]

I guess I still neck size. Hmm.

How are you guys FL sizing? Just bumping the shoulder back a bit or going all the way?

 

[ksthomas]

Rhyno,

Give him time. Murphy will find you and pay a visit.

Sorry, let me expand on that a bit. Yes, we're going all the way, but that includes using some form of gage to determine just how much shoulder set-back we're getting. On a bolt gun, .001"-.002" is all you need, and won't overwork the brass. Double those figures for gas guns, levers or pumps, since they don't have the bolt gun's camming power. Either way, it's all about reliability.

 

[Rhyno]

Rhyno,

Give him time. Murphy will find you and pay a visit.

Sorry, let me expand on that a bit. Yes, we're going all the way, but that includes using some form of gage to determine just how much shoulder set-back we're getting. On a bolt gun, .001"-.002" is all you need, and won't overwork the brass. Double those figures for gas guns, levers or pumps, since they don't have the bolt gun's camming power. Either way, it's all about reliability.

Thanks, I know there can be feeding issues with neck sizing only, I've already experienced it, so I FL size my hunting loads, but only neck size my target rounds.

So, are you using the rcbs precision micrometer to determine how far back your bumping the shoulder?

 

[ksthomas]

RCBS Precision Mic, Redding's Instant Indicator, Hornady's bump gages or Wilson chamber type gage, it doesn't matter which. The main thing is having some means of determining that set back so you don't get too much (case separations, misfires, that sort of thing) and yet you DO have "enough" (difficult bolt closure, sticky bolt lift after firing, etc.) on the flip side. All work, so it really comes down to which you prefer. I have and have used all of the above, and they all have their merits. Your choice here!

 

[Rhyno]

Thanks.

Getting ready to have my 308 redone to a 260. So just trying to figure out what I need ordered again.

 

[damoncali]

I used to use an RCBS precision Mic, but stopped. The graduated part of the micrometer is a separate part from the piece that screws on the base, and it comes loose after a while, losing it's zero. For the price you pay, the quality just isn't there. The graduations are hard to see, and there is some debate about what zero means even if the ring is still in place (mine did not match up with a headspace gage, for example). For some reason, they also insist on including this useless dummy round thing, which is annoying because it probably adds a couple bucks to the price. I have no idea what the logic is there.

In any case, I've moved on to the Hornady gage, which is almost as easy to use, and it's more clear what zero means - you're just reading a length. Buy it once and forget about it.

But yeah, I bump bolt gun ammo between .001 and .002. Gas guns get .003 or .004. Never had a problem with that.

 

[longshooter]

The RCBS FL dies sets, do they not pretty much size to SAMMI max plus 0.001"-0.002" bump?

 

[ksthomas]

Longshooter,

Technically, they're supposed to, and should, but don't ever make that assumption. And (I almost hate to say it this way), don't ever follow the instructions that come with the dies. "To adjust, lower the dies until it contacts the shell holder", etc.. While this will work in many cases, you'll find a whole bunch in which it won't. Too much shoulder set back in some, not fully sizing and leaving insufficient headspace in others. Use a gage, as that's the ONLY way to know what you're truly getting.

Yes, adjusting the dies the way the instructions tell you to will produce usable ammo, but it's not likely to be truly "right" in your particular rifle. Add in differences in shell holders (yes, they vary a bit too), chambers and the dies themselves, and you can see how those little differences can all add up. Makes a difference, and that's why we gage and measure.

 

[damoncali]

I don't know, but I doubt that. In that case, the rounds would be too long for a SAAMI min chamber. The bottom line is you have to measure the cases before and after sizing and make sure you're only bumping a little by adjusting the die up and down. Some get really anal and get shims so that the shell holder hits the die, but I don't see why that's needed.

Edit: Just looked up the SAAMI spec for .308 Winchester - I don't get it, since SAAMI max ammo will not fit in a SAAMI min chamber according to the spec. That should tell you what you need to know - you must measure.

 

[longshooter]

I'm thinking RCBS makes their dies for SAMMI max (+ bump), not min. chamber, as all main line mfgrs. should be employing a max chamber. This view might be well received at RCBS.

Remember, all chambers must accept max ammo.

Min chamber would require additional reloading technique.

 

[damoncali]

Ah. I thought you meant max case less a bump, which would put a .308 slightly above min chamber spec. I'm still not sure why a SAAMI min chamber will not accept a SAAMI max case according to the spec. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, or manufacturers just make sure the chambers are cut between max case and max chamber length and don't really go by the spec. In any case, that's why I handload.

 

[longshooter]

So anyway, the question I'm asking, for those using RCBS dies, from your experience, are all RCBS dies designed for minimum bump on SAMMI max chambers?

 

[damoncali]

No idea. I haven't used one of their dies in quite some time. That sounds (sort of) reasonable, but I'd call and ask. I wouldn't be surprised if it varied by cartridge.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I have used the soot on a case method for over 30 years. Never had a case head separation. Never had to beat a bolt open unless I used a neck die or a Lee collet die(oh yeah one of those magic creatures). Always lose my cases to primer pockets no longer holding a primer. Always had stellar ammo using my methods. Most complicated tools I now own are a set of calipers and a Sinclair "nut" bullet comparator. Use a plain jane split mouth case to find my bullet lands.

 

[jasonZ]

I was curious about that. I have a small base die set for the 30-06, but I don't have an semi auto rifle any more, so I was wondering. I've neck sized plenty of 308 ammo that has been fired in my bolt gun and never had to beat a bolt open or had any issues, let alone lost cases or had case/head separation. I was just curious about the neck sizing thing, as it seems that FL sizing brass would be harder on the brass than just neck sizing it as you go. I don't recall what brand of neck sizer I have. I'm betting it's forester, but not sure. The small base dies for the 06 are RCBS, as well as my 308 dies. I've never really had any issues with RCBS dies, but could not tell you how they base their measurements. I have always just ran it down to touch the case holder and it's worked out well, so I haven't changed my tactics. As far as performance, I've not really seen any issues with ammo performance with FL or neck sized cases. I clean em, measure em, trim em if needed, chamfer em if needed, size em, and load em. It's pretty straight forward. It seems that they are consistent or better in performance than any factory or match grade ammo that I've used. I guess I figure if it's not broken, then I'm not gonna try to fix it. I don't shoot as far as a lot of you guys do and I don't shoot matches either, so it's probably not as critical to me. When I have a critical shot, I have criteria that is laid out for me and I have no choice in the matter really. It's department issued stuff or none at all. Thanks for the info on the neck sizing option though.