Neck tension-what's next?

[Oldmauser]

I use a bushing neck sizing die (Redding) to size the neck of my brass. I use .290 for 6.5 Creedmoor. I have a strong feeling it's not enough to achieve repeatable, consistent neck tension. My question to you:

1. Should I use expander mandrel after using neck bushing die?
2. Should I neck turn- is it the key to decrease SDs/ES? When does it make sense to neck turn? I shoot at distance up to 600 yards. Mostly 300 yards.

 

[Newbie2020]

I am looking at doing something similar. Watching....

 

[nn8734]

I use a bushing neck sizing die (Redding) to size the neck of my brass. I use .290 for 6.5 Creedmoor. I have a strong feeling it's not enough to achieve repeatable, consistent neck tension. My question to you:

1. Should I use expander mandrel after using neck bushing die?
2. Should I neck turn- is it the key to decrease SDs/ES? When does it make sense to neck turn? I shoot at distance up to 600 yards. Mostly 300 yards.

How consistent are you at 600 yards now? What size targets? What are your current Sd/Es figures (taken over at least 20 rounds, anything less is meaningless).

I just use standard 6.5 cm Redding sizing die with the stock expander ball (and Forster Micrometer seater) and only really care about consistent shoulder bump and CBTO. My necks expand between .002-.003 and seating pressure is largely constant (I separate any rounds that “feel” different when seating).

My typical SD is high single digits/ low double digits 10-13 and ES is less than 30 over a typical 20 round string. I have zero problems hitting 2/3 ipsc targets to 1000m (12” plates to 600m). Switching to Lapua brass from Federal and Hornady made the single biggest difference in my loads, everything else was held equal.

Depending on your requirements, the extra juice (adding all these extra procedural steps/tools,etc) may or may not be worth the squeeze.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Watching with interest to see where this thread goes.

I have only ever used standard non bushing dies and am in the market for new dies for a new caliber. I have read lots about bushing / non bushing on here and elsewhere. There is a range of opinions on both and each has pros / cons.

I intend to move into expanders which brings me to my first question - which die type is the better fit if doing so?

If using a non bushing from what I can tell you leave the expander button off so the neck is undersized and then opened up with the expander mandrel. The upside is that the complete neck is sized, the downside is that it works the brass more than a bushing die setup.

If using a bushing die you can select a bushing just under the size of the mandrel you wish to use which works the brass less (pro) but bushing dies typically dont size the entire neck leaving a portion at the botton of the neck unsized. Some suggest this causes donuts (con) and this unsized portion can make the bolt hard to close (I see the logic but if it is so little I find it hard to believe). I have also read that this unsized part is actually advantageous as it will centre the round in the chamber better and benchrest guys do it on purpose for this reason.

As someone who has never used bushing dies first hand I am interested to hear from those that have used both thoughts and their thoughts on the points I have mentioned.

 

[Steel head]

Watching with interest to see where this thread goes.

I have only ever used standard non bushing dies and am in the market for new dies for a new caliber. I have read lots about bushing / non bushing on here and elsewhere. There is a range of opinions on both and each has pros / cons.

I intend to move into expanders which brings me to my first question - which die type is the better fit if doing so?

If using a non bushing from what I can tell you leave the expander button off so the neck is undersized and then opened up with the expander mandrel. The upside is that the complete neck is sized, the downside is that it works the brass more than a bushing die setup.

If using a bushing die you can select a bushing just under the size of the mandrel you wish to use which works the brass less (pro) but bushing dies typically dont size the entire neck leaving a portion at the botton of the neck unsized. Some suggest this causes donuts (con) and this unsized portion can make the bolt hard to close (I see the logic but if it is so little I find it hard to believe). I have also read that this unsized part is actually advantageous as it will centre the round in the chamber better and benchrest guys do it on purpose for this reason.

As someone who has never used bushing dies first hand I am interested to hear from those that have used both thoughts and their thoughts on the points I have mentioned.

Bushings work but have limitations
They don’t like big sizing steps snd that’s when you see donuts and runout issues popping up more frequently.
Set up so expander is working hard (too small bushing) and you’ll get issues so you’re necks, chamber and bushing all need to jive nicely.
That is sometimes hard to achieve.

Personally I’ll take a body die and Lee collet all day over bushing dies

 

[XLR308]

What brass are you using ?
All of my 6.5CM Lapua brass i neck turn before use, they are turned for roughly 90% clean up and are .002" under chamber dimension on headspace when new.
Those are sized in a Redding Type S with a .289" bushing that gives me .002" neck tension all other brass ( Hornady, Norma, Winchester) i have just run through a Hornady FL die but havent reloaded them.

 

[powdahound76]

Most important is how you hold your tongue when trimming your pubes.
And yes, it differs if you are using a cordless trimmer or a trimmer with a power cord.

Be sure to go slow and careful.
If you catch loose sack skin (like loose neck skin old guys have) you will not be happy.
PS: do on a warm day. Shriveled iced up January balls dont trim as well.

 

[Oldmauser]

My previous process was:
1. Take out the expander ball out of a Forster FL sizing die. FL size Lapua brass.
2. Run the 21st century expander mandrel through the neck. Trimm, if necessary.
3. Primer, powder, bullet (Forster Micrometer Seating Die), shoot.
If I had fired Lapua brass, I had 10-5 m/s SDs which is not good. I expected single digit SDs. If I used fresh Lapua brass, I only checked the length and headspace. If both parameters were ok, I only run the expander mandrel through them. With new Lapua brass I had1-3 m/s SDs.


After some discussions with more experienced colleagues I modified my process:
1. Once fired Lapua brass- I run .290 bushing with Redding neck sizing die. I do not bump the shoulders as long as I have no problem with chambering the round and closing the bolt. I check the length, trimm if necessary.
2. Primer, powder, bullets, shoot.
I did not check the velocities, SDs with the second process but I gave it a trial by fire and placed 1st in a club match. I assume that SDs must have been pretty low, since a 10-shot group was about .5 moa/100 meters.

The questions is: should I continue the current process without any changes or should I introduce some improvements?

 

[nn8734]

Check velocities over 40-50 rounds produced with the above mentioned “modified process”, assess the data, group sizes, overall consistency etc then make a decision before buying any more shit or doing anything else differently.

also, SD/Es numbers and groups size at 100m have almost no relationship.

 

[Oldmauser]

I am aware of that and plan to do testing at 300m.

 

[nn8734]

I am aware of that and plan to do testing at 300m.

You mentioned grp size at 100 as an indicator of MV consistency, making it a decision point for you so I figured you weren’t aware thus why I pointed it out.

I’d do 800m or at bare minimum, 600m. I’d print 1-1.5” groups at 300m with Federal factory ammo where SD is typically in the mid teens….Look at vertical dispersion. Assuming SD/ES are to your liking and vertical disp is consistently, say 1-1.5 MOA, assuming you feel good about each shot I’d then compare with the data/results garnered via your old method to determine if making the changes are worth your time and money.

Being honest, I’m not convinced super low/single digit SDs matter inside 800m with the 6.5cm when targets are PRS sized or less than/equal to ~2moa anyway but everyone has different goals and priorities as well as needs based on target size/application

 

[Oldmauser]

I don't shoot steel. I do only target shootin- mostly F-class. So I am looking for 0.5 moa for 10 shots or less at 300 and 600 m.

 

[Graye2]

I would advocate for the use of an expander mandrel post neck sizing. I’ve found great consistency with this method and can achieve 1/2 MOA @ 600 if I do my part. Unless you’ve got a really tight chamber I’m not sure of the benefit to neck turn but I’ve also never done it myself as I just haven’t seen the need with Lapua brass and my process.

 

[Oldmauser]

I would advocate for the use of an expander mandrel post neck sizing. I’ve found great consistency with this method and can achieve 1/2 MOA @ 600 if I do my part. Unless you’ve got a really tight chamber I’m not sure of the benefit to neck turn but I’ve also never done it myself as I just haven’t seen the need with Lapua brass and my process.

You achieve .5 moa at 600yards if and only if you run the expander mandrel post neck sizing? You see added value in comparison to neck sizing via bushing?

 

[Threadcutter308]

Most important is how you hold your tongue when trimming your pubes.
And yes, it differs if you are using a cordless trimmer or a trimmer with a power cord.

Be sure to go slow and careful.
If you catch loose sack skin (like loose neck skin old guys have) you will not be happy.
PS: do on a warm day. Shriveled iced up January balls dont trim as well.

What the hell is wrong with you ?

You just get crossed up with a psycho Nurse Ratched ?

 

[Graye2]

You achieve .5 moa at 600yards if and only if you run the expander mandrel post neck sizing? You see added value in comparison to neck sizing via bushing?

Honestly I believe so yes, my groups tightened up quite a bit once I went to a mandrel method. That said I started shooting more at the same time and that’s why I said if I do my part. I’m a firm believer in trigger time - wind calls - etc but I’m not willing to sacrifice going back to not using the mandrel.

Well, at least not until I can get my hands on an AMP press but I’ve been awaiting that release for some time...

 

[CK1.0]

First, I think your "experienced colleagues" were fucking with you or something, I'd throw that neck-sizer in the garbage can where it belongs and go back to the FL sizer with the expander ball removed like you were already doing... Bump the shoulder every time, in fact, do everything every time, the same every time, no skipping steps, so trimming every time too. IMO if a case doesn't need to be trimmed, then the cutter won't touch it, and there won't be any brass shavings to worry about cleaning up, but the only way to be totally sure that a case didn't need to be touched a little in order to be more alike to it's "brothers" is to try trimming it... It's all about consistency: we want to try and put our cartridges into as close to the same exact pre-fired state every time as we can manage before they go into the gun, any time we omit a step or skip something we're fucking with our consistency which is no bueno.

After the FL size, yes, follow it with a mandrel. Not only will it help with making neck tension more consistent, but arguably more importantly, it'll push any imperfections in the necks to the outside, so that where your bullets ride and touch the inside of the necks it'll be a much more consistent smooth surface case to case.

Neck turning? IDK, I don't shoot F-class so I don't see a need to neck turn, but for something like F-class it probably can't hurt. Since the point of turning necks is to make each neck more similar/alike to the last/next case, it might be worth doing in your discipline. YMMV.

Lastly: you didn't mention annealing... wtf? If you want maximum consistency without annealing every firing, forget it, won't happen.

There's a zillion reasons some guys come up with when trying to say annealing is optional, but really there's nothing to debate, it's science. If you don't anneal every firing, then you aren't shooting the same brass every load cycle. Once a piece of brass is fired, it's physically different than before (we can easily see it and have to resize it), but it's changed on a molecular level too (that we can't see), and it keeps on changing on a molecular level every firing, period. So, just like we resize the cases when reloading, we also need to anneal if we want to truly return them to their pre-fired state.

Remember what SD's actually mean: the closer your rounds end up to all being exactly the same, the lower the SD number you'll see.

 

[Rocketmandb]

My previous process was:
1. Take out the expander ball out of a Forster FL sizing die. FL size Lapua brass.
2. Run the 21st century expander mandrel through the neck. Trimm, if necessary.
3. Primer, powder, bullet (Forster Micrometer Seating Die), shoot.
If I had fired Lapua brass, I had 10-5 m/s SDs which is not good. I expected single digit SDs. If I used fresh Lapua brass, I only checked the length and headspace. If both parameters were ok, I only run the expander mandrel through them. With new Lapua brass I had1-3 m/s SDs.


After some discussions with more experienced colleagues I modified my process:
1. Once fired Lapua brass- I run .290 bushing with Redding neck sizing die. I do not bump the shoulders as long as I have no problem with chambering the round and closing the bolt. I check the length, trimm if necessary.
2. Primer, powder, bullets, shoot.
I did not check the velocities, SDs with the second process but I gave it a trial by fire and placed 1st in a club match. I assume that SDs must have been pretty low, since a 10-shot group was about .5 moa/100 meters.

The questions is: should I continue the current process without any changes or should I introduce some improvements?

If you're looking for consistency (and thus better ES/SD), then your previous process is better - though I'd also add in some graphite neck lube. As for using your new process and placing 1st at a club match, congrats, but group size and SDs have little relation at 100m.

And neck sizing works for a number of firings, but then the extraction issues start.

 

[ReaperDriver]

I use a bushing neck sizing die (Redding) to size the neck of my brass. I use .290 for 6.5 Creedmoor. I have a strong feeling it's not enough to achieve repeatable, consistent neck tension. My question to you:

1. Should I use expander mandrel after using neck bushing die?
2. Should I neck turn- is it the key to decrease SDs/ES? When does it make sense to neck turn? I shoot at distance up to 600 yards. Mostly 300 yards.

I'm using the same setup - Redding bushing neck die and I use a .292 with Lapua brass in my Bolt gun and .291 in the gas gun. I feel like I'm getting plenty of neck tension and both are shooting under .5 inch with single digit SD's.

Also I've just started using a Wilson inside neck mandrel, but have only shot one small batch with it and don't have enough data to conclusively say it's making my reloads more accurate yet. It is a lot of extra work though.

 

[XLR308]

I'm using the same setup - Redding bushing neck die and I use a .292 with Lapua brass in my Bolt gun and .291 in the gas gun. I feel like I'm getting plenty of neck tension and both are shooting under .5 inch with single digit SD's.

Also I've just started using a Wilson inside neck mandrel, but have only shot one small batch with it and don't have enough data to conclusively say it's making my reloads more accurate yet. It is a lot of extra work though.

What do your loaded neck O.D. dimensions measure with Lapua brass ?
Mine with a light skim cut measure .291" with a .289" bushing with .002" neck tention and are virtually unchanged after runing a 21st century turning mandrel through them so eliminated the process.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I think NASA engineers discuss space travel less than Hide dudes discuss prepping a 6.5 case. That says something about OUR craft, and us!

Seriously though................. I just bought an annealer and can definately feel the difference when sizing. I full length size every time, I check neck ID, which also cleans any burrs out of the neck, no bushing, primer, powder, bullet and shoot. Don't see a need for bushings or neck turning? Also, since upgrading to the tank of a press I have, ( MEC) you can easily feel any any difference in neck tension when seating bullets.

In better times, lots of guys just bought factory ammo and shot matches, very well. Some that planned accordingly still do! So................ how much does it all really matter?

Seems to me, as mentioned above, CONSISTENCY is king. Do it EXACTLY the same every time, whatever you are doing. The same every time can be repeated easier than "perfect" every once in a while.

 

[ReaperDriver]

What do your loaded neck O.D. dimensions measure with Lapua brass ?
Mine with a light skim cut measure .291" with a .289" bushing with .002" neck tention and are virtually unchanged after runing a 21st century turning mandrel through them so eliminated the process.

So.... I've had to process my brass differently for the Bolt and the gas gun. I've been running Lapua in my bolt gun (AI-AT Gradous cut Bartlein Barrel) for several years now with un-turned necks. However, I've had to very slightly turn down the necks on the lapua brass I shoot in the gas gun (JP Barrel) due to a very tight chamber. I was getting pressure signs even with light/moderate loads and we tracked it down to neck thickness in the tight chamber.

So I just measured it and the Loaded neck for the unturned Lapua is .935-.940 and the turned necks are .925-.930 depending on how hard I tighten the calipers.

 

[Oldmauser]

The whole reason for me to change my process is the "benefit of fireformed brass" argument. People say: if you do FL every single time, you shaping down the brass to the nominal values. If you don't you leave it fireformed to match the exact dimensions of your chamber.

The process no. 1 was introduced by me after discussing it with many colleagues at the Hide. The process no. 2 ("modified process") I inroduced recently after talking with some experienced F-class shooters. If they were fucking with me? I cannot exclude that.

As far as consistency is concerned:
1. I do anneal my brass.
2. I use the dry lube while sizing my necks.

I think I will load 20 rounds using process no. 1 and 20 rounds using process no. 2. I will compare data and groups and come back to you.

 

[CK1.0]

I think the thing is that a consensus has already been reached within most of the rifle community that neck sizing is not considered a "best practice" anymore... There's even a bunch of info out there from hardcore F-class guys like Speedy Gonzalez and Erik Cortina explaining why they don't like neck sizing, Erik Cortina even has vid out there where he literally asks a bunch of top F-class guys at a match "neck size or full length size?" and it's FL size every time.

There's a list of reasons why most believe FL sizing is better, but I think the main thing is: even the fire-formed cases are all going to be slightly different from one and other to a degree that you can't predict, a lot of luck involved that way, but if you FL size them all, then you should be able to get them to be as alike as possible instead of relying on good luck.

That said, it should go without saying that a consistent and precise shoulder bump is crucial. Adjusting one's die to be perfect can be one of the most annoying tasks ever due to the big threads on sizing dies, and a lot of guys never really spend the time to get it just right, but getting it right is worth it. It can be such a PIA though... even knowing what I'm doing it sometimes takes me like 12 tries and 30mins to get it right hahaha.

It sounds like your process is pretty together, I think maybe you might just want to add a mandrel to the mix and see if you see an improvement... I know for me it literally cut my SD's in half.

Plus, if you're annealing every firing, you can experiment a little more with bushings and mandrels to find exactly what works for you without having to worry about beating up your brass: I've heard of guys who try to use bushings that are as large as they can get away with, and then also, some guys swear by using a tighter bushing than usual followed by a mandrel to open it up...

I think the mandrel is what you're after, and it makes a big difference. Beyond that, I've even heard some F-class guys argue about how much "dwell time" (how long they let the case sit on the mandrel) is best... so there's always a little more to nerd out on if one wants to hahaha.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Watching with interest to see where this thread goes.

I have only ever used standard non bushing dies and am in the market for new dies for a new caliber. I have read lots about bushing / non bushing on here and elsewhere. There is a range of opinions on both and each has pros / cons.

I intend to move into expanders which brings me to my first question - which die type is the better fit if doing so?

If using a non bushing from what I can tell you leave the expander button off so the neck is undersized and then opened up with the expander mandrel. The upside is that the complete neck is sized, the downside is that it works the brass more than a bushing die setup.

If using a bushing die you can select a bushing just under the size of the mandrel you wish to use which works the brass less (pro) but bushing dies typically dont size the entire neck leaving a portion at the botton of the neck unsized. Some suggest this causes donuts (con) and this unsized portion can make the bolt hard to close (I see the logic but if it is so little I find it hard to believe). I have also read that this unsized part is actually advantageous as it will centre the round in the chamber better and benchrest guys do it on purpose for this reason.

As someone who has never used bushing dies first hand I am interested to hear from those that have used both thoughts and their thoughts on the points I have mentioned.

I'm not sure I agree with Bushing dies can't resize the entire neck. I have a Redding Micrometer neck die and I set it down so that you when you gently run the press up, can feel the die just touch the shoulder. I then back it out in tiny increments until the handle is all the way down (press ram all the way up) and I don't feel that shoulder bump. My neck sized brass doesn't show the tell-tell line where it would be unsized like it would get of you were only trying to size say 3/4 of the neck like some of the BR guys might do.

I'm going to load a bit today and I'll post some pics of what I'm talking about.

 

[ReaperDriver]

On a similar subject, My recent load process was to FL size with a Redding bushing die. I had previously used a Body die first and then a neck bushing die to do the necks. I switched to the FL Bushing to save a step. I just recently switched back to the body die after buying a Hornady Headspace gauge. I was getting inconsistent measurements of the bump amount on the FL sized cases in the FL bushing die and it was driving me crazy. As an experiment, I swapped back to the Body die and did some more headspace measurements and they came out much more consistent.

Other than a bad FL die, Any thoughts on why this might be the case?

 

[Rocketmandb]

People say: if you do FL every single time, you shaping down the brass to the nominal values. If you don't you leave it fireformed to match the exact dimensions of your chamber.

But you aren't taking it to "nominal" values. You're slightly bumping the shoulders back and slightly bringing in the body.

The process no. 1 was introduced by me after discussing it with many colleagues at the Hide. The process no. 2 ("modified process") I inroduced recently after talking with some experienced F-class shooters. If they were fucking with me? I cannot exclude that.

I doubt they're fucking with you - just a different philosophy that carries its own set of issues.

Neck sizing will keep the brass closest to your chamber, but every time you shoot, it expands out to your chamber then springs back a very small amount. Each time a piece of brass is fired, it springs back less. After some number of firings (4-6ish), there isn't enough room to spring back to take the case far enough away from your chamber to allow for clean extraction. This is why you'll eventually get sticky bolts when you neck size.

If you only neck size, you'll eventually have to FL size, and unless you're meticulous in your brass management, you'll get extraction issues at some point because you won't have FL sized that particular piece at the right time. Some people will say that it's more of a shoulder bump issue than a case wall issue (so they bump shoulder and neck size), and for some cases/chambers, that may be the case. On my latest build, a 300 PRC, the chamber is a little small, so isn't getting FL sized. At 6 firings, I started getting sticky bolt lift.

I just got my custom Whidden die, so will get to shoot my older cases again.

I think I will load 20 rounds using process no. 1 and 20 rounds using process no. 2. I will compare data and groups and come back to you.

This will likely yield very similar results. I've done similar tests before, and the difference was well within the margin of error.

 

[XLR308]

I'm not sure I agree with Bushing dies can't resize the entire neck. I have a Redding Micrometer neck die and I set it down so that you when you gently run the press up, can feel the die just touch the shoulder. I then back it out in tiny increments until the handle is all the way down (press ram all the way up) and I don't feel that shoulder bump. My neck sized brass doesn't show the tell-tell line where it would be unsized like it would get of you were only trying to size say 3/4 of the neck like some of the BR guys might do.

I'm going to load a bit today and I'll post some pics of what I'm talking about.

I have 3 sets of 6.5 CM dies but have still not used the Redding comp neck die set since the Type S FL die workes so well.
The Hornady FL dies are excellent as well for a cheaper option and are underated in my opinion.
Just out of curiosity how many reloads do you get before needing to bump the shoulder on your 6.5CM brass ?

 

[ReaperDriver]

Just out of curiosity how many reloads do you get before needing to bump the shoulder on your 6.5CM brass ?

I FL size every time with a Body die for both my gas gun and bolt gun. Long ago, I started with just Neck sizing and I seem to recall 2, maybe 3, firings before needing to FL and bump the shoulders. After reading a lot of the explanations for why FL sizing everytime is better here on the Hide and elsewhere, I switched to FL every time and never looked back. The last thing I want is to have reliability issues in the middle of a comp stage as well as any inconsistency with accuracy as the brass "grows".

 

[XLR308]

I FL size every time with a Body die for both my gas gun and bolt gun. Long ago, I started with just Neck sizing and I seem to recall 2, maybe 3, firings before needing to FL and bump the shoulders. After reading a lot of the explanations for why FL sizing everytime is better here on the Hide and elsewhere, I switched to FL every time and never looked back. The last thing I want is to have reliability issues in the middle of a comp stage as well as any inconsistency with accuracy as the brass "grows".

Got it, i still havent used my comp neck die or body die.
I got them at an unbeatable price so couldnt resist.

 

[Oldmauser]

On Speedy Gonzalez/Erik Cortina story- everybody watched Erik's videos and everybody has their own opinion on that. Based on Erik's recommendation I did FL size the brass every single time. Now, I started to just neck size in order to see how it works out for me.


I spoke to guys who won several f-class matches on a national level.
They do 8 things:
1. they neck size with Redding competition neck sizing die,
2. they bump the shoulders with Redding body die,
3. they anneal every single time,
4.they sort bullets based on ogiv criterion,
5. they sort brass based on volume criterion and headspace criterion,
6. they trickle up to singular grain of powder,
7. before major events, they control the neck tension with KM arbor press and LE Wilson seating die.
8. If they have custom chamber, they turn necks.

Some of the guys just neck size up to the point where you get sticky bolt. Once this happens, they bump the shoulders. Otherwise, they just neck size and play with seating depth.

 

[ReaperDriver]

I think what's often lost in these discussions is that every discipline is different and they have differing tolerances and risk levels. It's hard to compare what works best for F-Class is the best for PRS, much less Benchrest. PRS is going to reward consistency and reliability over a range of conditions over pure accuracy. Whereas, an F-Class shooter could probably tolerate a "sticky" bolt now and then to maybe achieve that extra bit of pure accuracy that might be the difference between a 10 ring and an X ring whereas a PRS competitor or just a Go shoot steel at range for fun shooter is less concerned about having to be < 1/4 MOA accuracy because a hit on steel is a still a hit and get you the same number of points on the edge of the plate as the guys who nails the dead center. So I would hesitate to say there is a one size fits all solution. Horses for course......

 

[CK1.0]

On Speedy Gonzalez/Erik Cortina story- everybody watched Erik's videos and everybody has their own opinion on that. Based on Erik's recommendation I did FL size the brass every single time. Now, I started to just neck size in order to see how it works out for me.


I spoke to guys who won several f-class matches on a national level.
They do 8 things:
1. they neck size with Redding competition neck sizing die,
2. they bump the shoulders with Redding body die,
3. they anneal every single time,
4.they sort bullets based on ogiv criterion,
5. they sort brass based on volume criterion and headspace criterion,
6. they trickle up to singular grain of powder,
7. before major events, they control the neck tension with KM arbor press and LE Wilson seating die.
8. If they have custom chamber, they turn necks.

Some of the guys just neck size up to the point where you get sticky bolt. Once this happens, they bump the shoulders. Otherwise, they just neck size and play with seating depth.

Sorry, I think I missed you about using the body die every time... I thought you were neck sizing only (which is bad), if you're using both every time, that IS full length sizing every time.

I still recommend trying a mandrel: I don't know how to describe the how and why of what takes place exactly, but even with annealed brass where there should be little to no spring-back, there's something beneficial from the neck getting bent twice, once by the bushing (or regular FL die), and then the opposite way with the mandrel, that seems to fix the necks in place more consistently and uniformly then without the mandrel (and the result can totally be felt later when seating bullets).

 

[Oldmauser]

I plan to do that. I used the carbide mandrel in the process no. 1.
I think I will run the mandrel after neck sizing with .290 bushing. This will be added step to my process no. 2.

In my other caliber (6 BR) I use Forster bushing bump die. It bumps the shoulder and neck sizes in one step. After that I run the mandrel through the neck.

I thought that using (1) Redding body die + (2) bushing neck sizing die does not equal FL sizing with an ordinary FL sizing die.

 

[sjmpcc022]

After reading everything here, I have to absolutley agree with what I said above............................consistency is the most important factor in this whole deal!

Reloading a cartridge is a process, the only way to perfect a process is through consistency. Good, bad or otherwise you have no data to compare to unless you do it the same every time, at least until you find out the process is flawed and you adjust it.

All data up to that point is noted, may be good or bad, but unproven until a consistent process is followed, and either proven or disproven.

 

[SD Carpenter]

Erik Cortina has a video on YouTube explaining why you should always FL size and not neck size. He explains it pretty good.

 

[CK1.0]

I thought that using (1) Redding body die + (2) bushing neck sizing die does not equal FL sizing with an ordinary FL sizing die.

Depends on what you mean by ordinary FL sizing die? If one uses a FL bushing die with the same size bushing, then it’s the same thing, just 2 steps instead of one: the body die sizes the case body and bumps the shoulder, the neck bushing die only sizes the neck.

Does doing it separately work any better? Probably not.
Does doing it separately make some guys feel like it’s better because it’s more convoluted? Probably so.

IMO splitting up the body/neck dies is only to accommodate the neck-size-only types out there who can’t let go... that’s it.

 

[Snuby642]

Erik Cortina has a video on YouTube explaining why you should always FL size and not neck size. He explains it pretty good.

A standard fls with the expander sanded till it yeilds 3-4 thousand under.

A Sinclair mandrell at 2 thousands under and its perfect every time.

No turning necks, adjustments nada.

I'm a cortina fan, bushings suck.

 

[Oldmauser]

A standard fls with the expander sanded till it yeilds 3-4 thousand under.

A Sinclair mandrell at 2 thousands under and its perfect every time.

No turning necks, adjustments nada.

I'm a cortina fan, bushings suck.

I am also fan of Cortina's funny attitude. However, I won't buy his tuner.

@sjmpcc022 it's true what you say, but it's slightly off-topic. We are not discussing consistency here. Both processes are consistent and repeatable. The question I pose is whether with the process no. 2 one can achieve better results.
@ceekay1 This is the question I am asking myself. Whether doing shoulders bumping+neck sizing with bushing is better than doing FL sizing with, say forster FL sizing die (without rod)+running the 21century mandrel through the neck?
I was told that Redding body die just bumps the shoulder and works the brass less than Forster FL sizing die. is it true? I don't know.

 

[ReaperDriver]

I was told that Redding body die just bumps the shoulder and works the brass less than Forster FL sizing die. is it true? I don't know.

No. I have both the Redding body die+neck only Competition bushing die as well as a Redding FL Type-S bushing die. They do the exact same thing, just with either two steps or one step to achieve the same end result.

ETA: Sorry, I see you are comparing Redding to a Forster FL die. Apples and oranges. I don't know how much a forster FL dies sizes the brass. But Redding Body+ neck Bushing die = Redding FL Type S bushing die.

 

[Oldmauser]

Forster FL sizing die does not use bushings the way Redding does. If you look at the process from your perspective- do you think that separating those 2 steps (neck sizing and bumping the shoulders) provides more consistency?

 

[Graye2]

Personally I think the only reason to separate the 2 steps is if your using the micrometer top and you only size a portion of the neck. I always bump my shoulder .002 and then neck size with a bushing but only the top 50-60% and leave the shoulder junction intact to allow for better seating in the chamber.

I have one of the new SAC dies for my Dasher and this is how Mark set those dies to size as well. I also have the option to use a mandrel with this die and it’s 1 step vs 3. If I was going to start over I’d buy one of these for my 6.5 as well and get rid of the other 3 dies but since they work for me I’m hesitant to change.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Forster FL sizing die does not use bushings the way Redding does. If you look at the process from your perspective- do you think that separating those 2 steps (neck sizing and bumping the shoulders) provides more consistency?

In theory, no. It should make no difference. However, I did buy a Redding FL bushing die a while back to combine those two steps into one. I used it for a while with good results. However, I was comparing my FL+ bushing sized case's headspace to just the body die and there seemed to be more variation. So I swapped back to body die + Neck die. I'm going to remeasure some cases both ways and see if I still get the same thing. If not, I'll probably dedicate the Body die to one rifle and the FL die to the other rifle of the same caliber. That way I don't have to keep resetting the die when I switch between rifles. Ones a Bolt and the other is a gasser and the chamber dimensions are just different enough to have to set up the die for each.

 

[Snuby642]

Id like to match a bolt gun to one of my ar's 6.5g probably.

Run same brass would be cool.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Id like to match a bolt gun to one of my ar's 6.5g probably.

Run same brass would be cool.

I’m doing exactly the opposite. I’ve got a box of .260 Lapua dedicated to the bolt gun and a different t on for the gas’s gun. That way I can keep the brass working better in each chamber without moving the dimensions around a lot. Plus it allows me to keep track of the brass life better for each rifle.

 

[TheGerman]

I've always FL sized while bumping back .002 in a bolt and .003 in a semi through a Redding die with a bushing.

Then finish it with the 21st Century arbor mandrel.

There's some testing involved in what bushing diameter + arbor mandrel = what next tension you want to end up with

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I have a strong feeling it's not enough to achieve repeatable, consistent neck tension.

I can't believe this went on this long without asking so I will. How do you know .290 was the correct number to begin with? Did you measure the thickness of your case necks with a ball micrometer? Because if you have necks that are .013 you have also perfected zero neck tension

 

[Oldmauser]

I can't believe this went on this long without asking so I will. How do you know .290 was the correct number to begin with? Did you measure the thickness of your case necks with a ball micrometer? Because if you have necks that are .013 you have also perfected zero neck tension

yes. I measured the neck thickness and did the math.

 

[Oldmauser]

I did some testing today. 28 degrees Celsius (60-90s pause between shots), 100m (didn't have time to drive to a 300m range today, sorry), F-class bipod, SEB rear bag.
10-shot groups. Group no. 1 and no. 2 have the same seating depth, the same powder charge, the same bullet, Lapua brass fired 2 times.
Group no. 1- brass FL sized with Forster FL die without a rod, then I run the 21st century carbide mandrel through the neck, Group no. 2- 3/4 of the neck was sized with Redding competition neck sizing die.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Interesting.

So was the single outlier on target #2 you or the gun?

Without that #2 would probably have been the better group?

I need a new die and am leaning towards the FL die with no rod & mandrel so this is good info.