Need a New Project... 6.5GAP4S, 6.5PRC, or 6.5SS ?

[mkollman74]

Gonna build a lighter weight backpacking rig with a 20" barrel that will be mostly shot suppressed. I'll be hunting with it, and am hoping to shoot the 156 Bergers from a detachable magazine. Anybody with experience have advice to give RE: which chambering would be preferable?

 

[Supersubes]

Now that there’s Lapua brass for the PRC, thats my pick.

 

[dirtytough]

I believe you will have the most case capacity with the SS in a short action with 156’s.

 

[Chickentoast]

6.5 Max on a Tikka. <3.1 COAL, 153.5's @3170. Badlands 135 solids shoot great as well - seating depth test below.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

Gap 6.5 SAUM, @20” suppressed…

 

[gearguywb]

Following

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

IF cost is not an issue, I would go with the Sherman SS. But like has been said, 6.5PRC is not to far behind and you get factory ammo and lapua brass. Sherman uses ADG brass which should be fine.

 

[mkollman74]

Gap 6.5 SAUM, @20” suppressed…

View attachment 7787306

What bullets are you shooting? What velocities are you getting?

 

[Ledzep]

Supply chain says PRC.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

What bullets are you shooting? What velocities are you getting?

139 scenar over 61.0 H1000. 2,990 fps with Ultra 7 6.5 attached.

 

[Huckmeat]

I've owned both, both are great and really close. 4S is a tiny bit more velocity, but I ended up staying with PRC because of factory ammo

 

[j741]

6.5PRC will have better brass availability. Up until recently the Sherman brass was only orderable in very limited quantities and in some cases only sold with a die set combo for new shooters. Seems better now but I think they're more at risk of availability issues than 6.5 PRC brass.

The 6.5 SS will also cost $2/piece as there is only one source for it. The Lapua 6.5PRC can be backordered for $1.6/piece.

I'd also note that Sherman had raised on the FB group that he may be interested in selling the company and stepping back. That may not bode well for long term availability of brass.

 

[Chickentoast]

I suggested the Max because it's a SAUM improved - it can fire SAUM ammo and/or use SAUM cases. I run ADG, around 1.75 each if I remember correctly. Run anywhere from 57-64 grains, brass will last forever if you anneal. Above 64 grains, you will loosen pockets in 5-6 firings.

 

[ormandj]

6.5PRC will have better brass availability. Up until recently the Sherman brass was only orderable in very limited quantities and in some cases only sold with a die set combo for new shooters. Seems better now but I think they're more at risk of availability issues than 6.5 PRC brass.

The 6.5 SS will also cost $2/piece as there is only one source for it. The Lapua 6.5PRC can be backordered for $1.6/piece.

I'd also note that Sherman had raised on the FB group that he may be interested in selling the company and stepping back. That may not bode well for long term availability of brass.

Wow, now that’s news to me. Where is this post?

 

[Yaremkiv]

What are the barrel lifespans on these 6.5 chamberings?

 

[4O6shootist]

I run a 20" 65saum, 135 vld @ 2970fps supressed. It's a super accurate low psi load w/ H1000. This is my 3rd saum build, I also have a 65prc, they shoot equally well, the saum just qllows you to run the next velocity node usually in equal length barrels. A Sherman short holds same amount of powder as the saum, 74gr, 6.5SST holds 72, 65 prc holds 69 according to my auto trickler scale filled w/ water to slight miniscus. Everyone says SS will outrun a saum by 100fps, it will, but equal pressures in both chambers w/ same powder & bullet seated same position in neck, they'll go the same exact speed. Sherman loads that are exceed speeds of saum parent are just running over max saami psi, and some guys are running really fn high pressure.

 

[PFG]

Great topic. Can we talk components for the SAUM?

If supply chain wasn’t an issue and everything was in stock, what are the dream pieces for the SAUM?

Brass?
FL sizer?
Seater?
Bullet? (Elk size game and down)

 

[4O6shootist]

Great topic. Can we talk components for the SAUM?

If supply chain wasn’t an issue and everything was in stock, what are the dream pieces for the SAUM?

Brass?
FL sizer?
Seater?
Bullet? (Elk size game and down)

156 bergers at 3060-3080, 26" pipe
adg brass
CCI250 primers
N565, Retumbo, H1000, imr 7977, 8133
Dies: happy with my rcbs matchmaster sizing die, seater I use a Horandy 65 prc with a 153 Atip stem

This will truly run its best from a medium action. Saum and prc are both around 3.06 coal touch lands with 190 freebore, 225 is more appropriate for the 147,153,153.5,156 bullet weights.

 

[RickyRodney]

156 bergers at 3060-3080, 26" pipe
adg brass
CCI250 primers
N565, Retumbo, H1000, imr 7977, 8133
Dies: happy with my rcbs matchmaster sizing die, seater I use a Horandy 65 prc with a 153 Atip stem

This will truly run its best from a medium action. Saum and prc are both around 3.06 coal touch lands with 190 freebore, 225 is more appropriate for the 147,153,153.5,156 bullet weights.

How much velocity do you give up with the 6.5 PRC compared to the 6.5 SAUM in your experience?

Those numbers on the Berger 156 at 3060-3080 are impressive. Almost 2000ft-lbs of energy at 500 yards, and 11.4" of drift at 10mph full value wind.

 

[Painless300]

I’m running the 6.5 PRC on a LP Ti mid action with 22” Proof. Getting 2915mv with 156 Berger on top of a 58.6g of H1000. Very accurate load for me.

 

[Winny94]

Not a fan of the 6.5 variants as a whole, but if you ask what family, Sherman for sure (assuming you're fine w/ brass costs and reload obviously).
My 7 runs a 175gr at 2990 with SDs routinely running at 5fps and ES rarely exceeding 15. I've ran it quite a bit faster, but the consistency here (and being kinder to throat on my $900 bbl is too good to mess with).

 

[4O6shootist]

How much velocity do you give up with the 6.5 PRC compared to the 6.5 SAUM in your experience?

Those numbers on the Berger 156 at 3060-3080 are impressive. Almost 2000ft-lbs of energy at 500 yards, and 11.4" of drift at 10mph full value wind.

Here's how I look at kt. A prc can run that 3050 node but its very warm to do it. The saum runs it at a more conservative ressure due to its extra 4.5gr powder capacity.

 

[jakelly]

6.5 SAUM is a special case. There are many things that have aligned to allow a 6.5 130-140 to be driven at super cruise. 3100-3200 for 3k rounds is no slouch. From an outsider’s perspective the PRC seems to struggle to match SAUM performance, and sometimes when I see posted loads (again I don’t own one) there doesn’t seem to be much improvement over a creed or 260.

 

[Painless300]

As I’ve posted I’m very familiar with loading the PRC with 156g Berger’s. I haven’t seen much load data on how the SAUM performs with the heavy projectiles. Just genuinely interested, no negative connotations here. Love to see some data from you SAUM owners.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

My GAP is a 8.7 twist so I stick with 139/140 grain bullets. One day I might rebarrel….

 

[264win]

To get back to the OP, I would go with the PRC because I think the 4s and SS are soon to be obsolete.
If you are wanting to shoot the 156 eol or similar projectiles from a standard short mag, it looks to be a bit of a challenge and would definitely need a short throat.
I am trying to decide between a PRC and CM for the MDT hnt26 chassis that just showed up..

 

[ormandj]

To get back to the OP, I would go with the PRC because I think the 4s and SS are soon to be obsolete.
If you are wanting to shoot the 156 eol or similar projectiles from a standard short mag, it looks to be a bit of a challenge and would definitely need a short throat.
I am trying to decide between a PRC and CM for the MDT hnt26 chassis that just showed up..

What does obsolete mean? They are wildcats, you can form them from SAAMI cartridge brass. They already aren’t stocked as factory loaded ammunition on shelves, so nothing will change there.

PRC is a great cartridge if you have an XM or medium action. So is 6.5 SAUM. The others make a lot more sense if you run a short action.

 

[4O6shootist]

To get back to the OP, I would go with the PRC because I think the 4s and SS are soon to be obsolete.
If you are wanting to shoot the 156 eol or similar projectiles from a standard short mag, it looks to be a bit of a challenge and would definitely need a short throat.
I am trying to decide between a PRC and CM for the MDT hnt26 chassis that just showed up..

Do you know anything about the saum SS prc case differences? The prc/saum have the same case and neck length. That means with the same freebore, bullet is in same exact position. The saum has 4.5gr more usable case capacity below the neck. This is very useful when comparing a bullet in these two cases ay the same cartridge overall length.

 

[264win]

Didn’t mean to hurt anyones feelings, many great cartridges have become obsolete over the years. I still have and shoot several of them. I have also had several 6.5 saum rifles and liked them, just gravitated to the PRC because I prefer to spend my free time shooting rather than trying to source/make brass, dies and reamers.

 

[ormandj]

Didn’t mean to hurt anyones feelings, many great cartridges have become obsolete over the years. I still have and shoot several of them. I have also had several 6.5 saum rifles and liked them, just gravitated to the PRC because I prefer to spend my free time shooting rather than trying to source/make brass, dies and reamers.

You didn’t hurt anybody’s feelings, and you didn’t really address what I asked. What do you mean obsolete, when referring to a wildcat? What do you think is obsoleting these cartridges? I’m truly curious, and not in a passive-aggressive way.

 

[Chickentoast]

Capacity and COAL are my main criteria. Try to achieve desired ballistics with minimal powder, and plan for some capacity headroom to lower pressures and save components.

 

[264win]

I don’t want to side track this thread much further, but by obsolete I mean no longer made.
As in no brass, no dies, no ammo, no reamers, no load data, no rifles, no prefit barrels, no when you ask your smith to spin you up a new barrel . I think the saum ( all calibers) and the Sherman are headed in this direction, in fact the Sherman started halfway there.


Everything about the PRC is easier now and will be more so in the future ( IMO)
If a person likes the extra time and cost associated with calibers that never quite made it, more power to you

Btw, I still shoot a pre 64 300 H&H, but I would certainly not recommend it as the best choice to anyone else.

 

[PFG]

Its amazing what happens when Lapua makes brass for a cartridge.

I never thought the PRC was all that popular.

Then boom. Lapua makes brass. And it becomes the 6.5 catsazz

 

[4O6shootist]

Its amazing what happens when Lapua makes brass for a cartridge.

I never thought the PRC was all that popular.

Then boom. Lapua makes brass. And it becomes the 6.5 catsazz

Adg holds pressure better unfortunately. Tested em both.

 

[jakelly]

My GAP is a 8.7 twist so I stick with 139/140 grain bullets. One day I might rebarrel….

Same here. 130 JLKs are my favorite, but I shoot Scenars and hybrids as well. I don’t mess with the even longer bullets, because it’s already crammed into a SA.

 

[jakelly]

I don’t want to side track this thread much further, but by obsolete I mean no longer made.
As in no brass, no dies, no ammo, no reamers, no load data, no rifles, no prefit barrels, no when you ask your smith to spin you up a new barrel . I think the saum ( all calibers) and the Sherman are headed in this direction, in fact the Sherman started halfway there.


Everything about the PRC is easier now and will be more so in the future ( IMO)
If a person likes the extra time and cost associated with calibers that never quite made it, more power to you

Btw, I still shoot a pre 64 300 H&H, but I would certainly not recommend it as the best choice to anyone else.

Yeah, Lapua also makes 6.5x284 brass as well… brass won’t trump design issues.

Availability? I think you must be talking about the horizon, because right now PRC stuff is through the roof when it’s available, which is virtually never.

I honestly think the PRC might become more popular if mid length actions become more popular. But as it sits, I like the legs of the 300 PRC a lot more. Lapua brass is great, but companies have closed the gap. The SAUM cases are better suited to larger calibers which have lots of fans, too. I don’t think the SAUM cases are bound for obsolescence.

 

[Ckleeves]

I haven’t seen a huge difference between the Saum and the Prc. I think you can get a fast PRC barrel and it’s gonna be close to the same speed as a slow saum barrel.

I can’t say 100% on that statement because I have never had the same barrel lengths and FB’s to do a exact comparison. But the difference isn’t huge IME.

I don’t think the SAUM is going anywhere, in fact I think the 7saum is more popular right now then it ever was.

If you want a real hotrod 6.5 do a 6.5-300 wsm. One of my buddies has built a few and they are a big step up from the saum/prc. With ADG making wsm brass I may go that route next barrel.

 

[j741]

Wow, now that’s news to me. Where is this post?

There was also an earlier one in Nov or December, but I didn't go back to try and find that. Found this one without too much looking.

 

[PFG]

If you want a real hotrod 6.5 do a 6.5-300 wsm. One of my buddies has built a few and they are a big step up from the saum/prc.[/quote

@Ckleeves any more info on this?

For someone building this as a hunting rifle, round count down a tube matters little to me. Thats what my 6.5CM is for - longevity. Interested in this 6.5-300WSM, speeds, etc. And feeding reliability in the field...

 

[Ckleeves]

Sorry I didn’t see this. So his current load is a 153.5 Berger with N570 @3150 in Remington brass, 24” barrel. I don’t know his exact chamber specs but I think Fb was in the .180 range. I’ll have to ask him exact. I’m sure it’s a barrel eating monster with N570 but the performance is certainly there. Brass is holding up good with that load I think he said he was at 4 firings on it and pockets were fine.

 

[TEUFEL820]

Sorry I didn’t see this. So his current load is a 153.5 Berger with N570 @3150 in Remington brass, 24” barrel. I don’t know his exact chamber specs but I think Fb was in the .180 range. I’ll have to ask him exact. I’m sure it’s a barrel eating monster with N570 but the performance is certainly there. Brass is holding up good with that load I think he said he was at 4 firings on it and pockets were fine.

Is this for the WSM or the SS?

 

[Ckleeves]

WSM on his. One of my other buddies has a SS and his is slightly faster then my SAUM but not a lot. I think he was getting 50fps faster then my saum with the same bullet? The WSM is top of the pile. I’m sure a lot of that has to do with using N570.

 

[Chickentoast]

WSM on his. One of my other buddies has a SS and his is slightly faster then my SAUM but not a lot. I think he was getting 50fps faster then my saum with the same bullet? The WSM is top of the pile. I’m sure a lot of that has to do with using N570.

6.5 Max is up there, I get 3170 with 65.75 grains N570 - same 153.5 Berger.

edit: Deja vu - I posted to this very thread in the beginning.

 

[mkollman74]

Great info fellas. Thanks. Still can't make up my mind, but I know more about the options now.

 

[TEUFEL820]

I'm looking to push 153-156 at 3k fps and be mag fed. It looks like the SS might be my best option.

 

[mkollman74]

I'm looking to push 153-156 at 3k fps and be mag fed. It looks like the SS might be my best option.

Its a tempting option.

 

[generalzip]

With lapua 6.5 PRC brass now available I’m surprised this is even a thread. If you don’t reload that’s a whole different conversation. I will say this though. If you’re sticking to a short action for weight you could get very similar performance with less troubles using a 6.5cm using rl26. The 156 is going to be too long likely for these short mags and would need a long action to unlock its potential. However at that point you open up to many other cartridges and add weight to the rifle. I’d stick to a 147 eld or 140 berger in a 6.5 PRC. Especially since you want a shorter 20” barrel the lighter bullets will keep velocity higher. A 140 berger from a 6.5 PRC could likely kill any animal in North America aside from a charging grizzly pretty easily.

 

[Chickentoast]

It seems 1/3 of responses are from people who haven't read the thread - and it's certainly not just this thread.

 

[4O6shootist]

My recommendation:
Bighorn origin medium action
Xlr magnesium chassis
Carbon 20" 7.5 or 7.7tw barrel
Mdt xm magazines modded my kinport peak rifles for 3 round capacity. The new hawkins hunter billet mags should be a consideration as well. The medium action will only add a few oz and allow you to maximize the performance from tge 2.02" case length with heavy bullets seated out.

 

[generalzip]

Who all currently offers a medium action besides bighorn and defiance?