Gunsmithing Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

[msahlm]

I’m not looking to start another Duracoat versus GunKote versus Cerakote versus Moly Resin versus Alumahyde versus rattlecan thread, I’ve read about a thousand of these threads here and in other forums and have decided the Gunkote best suits my needs, tools, skill set, and finish quality.

What I need are some questions answered that seem to never get asked. GunKoters out there, please pick out a question or two (or 7) to help me with..

1. Are the KG Gunkote (2400 series) colors mixable- as a specific example, could someone mix the OD green (flat) with the Light OD Green (flat) to tweak the color lighter or darker. If so, can I expect the mixed colors to result in logical outcomes? For future reference, when applying multiple (seperate) colors- say for a camo pattern- would one have to oven-cure each color coat before applying the next or just allow the coat to dry in between.

2. What kind of coverage could I expect out of a 4oz, 8oz bottle? My project is kinda unique, and I have a lot of surface area to finish versus the standard rifle job. Could I expect a 4oz bottle to complete a rifle (barreled action- trigger guard, bolt,) without making me nervous that I was going to run out?

3. I’ll probably ere on the side of caution and buy more than I need for my first project- What is the usable shelf life of the 2400 gunkote after I open the bottles, use some, and reseal them?

4. Can anyone tell me anything about the KG 4000 K-phos treatment? I assume it is to be used on blasted white STEEL parts as a pretreatment to gunkoting, is it of any similar benefit on aluminum or Stainless? Would I need to AVOID getting it on aluminum? Does it need to be sprayed with an airbrush as well, or can it be swabbed? Does it need to be baked? How soon prior to gunkoting whould I need to plan on pretreating- the same day? Any help here would be great. Can the K-phos be cleaned up with acetone or MEK?

5. I’ve had a ton of trouble finding the appropriate grit of Aluminum Oxide for sandblasting here locally. I think I have enough of it to finish this gun, but for future reference, why is Aluminum Oxide so vehemently recommended with Gun Kote? Are there problems that arise with using other sandblasting media? Are there other types of media that can be used, (and may be a lot less expensive)?

6. Along that line, the 2400 datasheet recommends to alodine or anodize aluminum, but that AO sandblasting will do. I do not want to half-ass this project, and I’m wondering just how far in second place is a simple AO sandblasting next to having the aluminum pre-coated? What problems arise? I am using virgin aluminum, I’ve seen somewhere that sanding with 600-800 grit AO paper will suffice, (instead of sandblasting) do you recommend against that? Why?


7. I’m contemplating picking up some KG 1200 Aircure while I’m at it-for finishing scopes, and plastic items. This product isn’t mentioned much and I assume it’s probably not as good a finish as Duracoate since it is a 1 part water-thinned air-cured and not a 2 part resin. It’d be nice to have a relative color match with other KG Guncote finishes, but am I best to just go with another product for these applications.

Thanks in advance, I know folks here hate to put themselves into ANOTHER Gunkote discussion, but it would really help me to have these questions answered.

 

[msahlm]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

Really, Not one person amoung all the pros here willing to throw me a bone?

Do I need a higher post count so I can sit at the cool kid's table?

 

[Robb]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

1. Are the KG Gunkote (2400 series) colors mixable- as a specific example, could someone mix the OD green (flat) with the Light OD Green (flat) to tweak the color lighter or darker. If so, can I expect the mixed colors to result in logical outcomes? For future reference, when applying multiple (seperate) colors- say for a camo pattern- would one have to oven-cure each color coat before applying the next or just allow the coat to dry in between.

I have mixed and come up with some interesting colors, One thing to watch out for is if you get a nice color, chances are you ll never match it again! I have mixed and have good luck with it so far. Applying seperate colors I do bake for a bit to "set" the previous color but I do not bake it full time or temp. I ll wait until all colors are applied.

2. What kind of coverage could I expect out of a 4oz, 8oz bottle? My project is kinda unique, and I have a lot of surface area to finish versus the standard rifle job. Could I expect a 4oz bottle to complete a rifle (barreled action- trigger guard, bolt,) without making me nervous that I was going to run out?

A pint will usually do two - three barreled actions (Bolt action rifle) which is what I normally do along with all of the extras such as guard, mount, lug, bolt. I tend to coat a little thicker than some do, and I use a spray gun that tends to waste a little more material so you may find you have plenty more if you were to use my methods.

3. I’ll probably ere on the side of caution and buy more than I need for my first project- What is the usable shelf life of the 2400 gunkote after I open the bottles, use some, and reseal them?

As long as you do not contaminate the mix I have had KG opened and stored for about a year and remained usable. You can reduce it if it thickens and I did store it in a climate controlled area.

4. Can anyone tell me anything about the KG 4000 K-phos treatment? I assume it is to be used on blasted white STEEL parts as a pretreatment to gunkoting, is it of any similar benefit on aluminum or Stainless? Would I need to AVOID getting it on aluminum? Does it need to be sprayed with an airbrush as well, or can it be swabbed? Does it need to be baked? How soon prior to gunkoting whould I need to plan on pretreating- the same day? Any help here would be great. Can the K-phos be cleaned up with acetone or MEK?

The phos coat is a chemical reaction to the metal surface to help reduce corrosion. Personally I do not use it, I have, but found I really did not need it for my application. It can be swabbed on and as I recall you only leave it on for a short period of time then wipe it down, allowing it to air dry. If you do use it make sure your project is completely dry prior to the application of KG, any moisture will ruin the coating process by producing fish eye, lack of adhesion, and just a lot of issues. If you are in a high moisture or salt water environment I suggest trying the phosphate, it cant hurt to try.

5. I’ve had a ton of trouble finding the appropriate grit of Aluminum Oxide for sandblasting here locally. I think I have enough of it to finish this gun, but for future reference, why is Aluminum Oxide so vehemently recommended with Gun Kote? Are there problems that arise with using other sandblasting media? Are there other types of media that can be used, (and may be a lot less expensive)?

I have tried other abrasives too, but I would stick with the recoomended product. Do NOT use glass beads they do not procude the "cut" needed for KG to properly adhere. Although I have tried it, I had to raise my pressure and I do not recoomend it!!! I have used a little more aggressive product and turned my pressure down. You have to play around with it to get the final finish you prefer.

6. Along that line, the 2400 datasheet recommends to alodine or anodize aluminum, but that AO sandblasting will do. I do not want to half-ass this project, and I’m wondering just how far in second place is a simple AO sandblasting next to having the aluminum pre-coated? What problems arise? I am using virgin aluminum, I’ve seen somewhere that sanding with 600-800 grit AO paper will suffice, (instead of sandblasting) do you recommend against that? Why?

I have done a few aluminum shotgun receivers and I went ahead with the blasting with A/O. If you have surface imperfections from hand sanding they WILL show through. I prefer the even surface blasting provides and I have never had any aluminum peice I have coated anodized prior to coating so I cannot comment on that. I have lightened my air pressure and lightly blasted aluminum to get the surface prep needed for KG to get a grip on it. Turned out fine.

7. I’m contemplating picking up some KG 1200 Aircure while I’m at it-for finishing scopes, and plastic items. This product isn’t mentioned much and I assume it’s probably not as good a finish as Duracoate since it is a 1 part water-thinned air-cured and not a 2 part resin. It’d be nice to have a relative color match with other KG Guncote finishes, but am I best to just go with another product for these applications.

I have used the aircoat but do not like it. It is water based and WILL run on you if you get her to thick and it sneaks up on you fast. Use it sparingly and this is the time if ever to use very light coats and allow to flash (dry) before the next coat. Once this stuff is on, it is on too, it really sticks good! Getting another brand to match colors....good luck! let me know what you find.
Now...I have... used regular KG on items that I do not bake. I have used it on fiberglass/plastic stocks, scopes, and such with great results. You will have to heat it up a bit for keep it there for a longer period of time. Really be careful though scopes are sealed, have o rings,that are NOT heat resistant and such..not worth ruining a high dollar item!!!!!!

Thanks in advance, I know folks here hate to put themselves into ANOTHER Gunkote discussion, but it would really help me to have these questions answered. [/quote]

Hope this helps! good luck and PICS PICS PICS!!!
Robb

 

[aj_brown]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

Call 512 352-3245 and ask for Chris or Joe, they will have all of your answers.

Alan

 

[msahlm]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

Thanks Robb- VERY helpful.

I may call those folks if I get into a bind- thanks to those who PM'ed help as well.

Am I correct in thinking K-phos is an effective pre-treatment for steel only, and not of much value for aluminum? I don't know where I got that notion- probably high school Chem class- but it's in my head- any benefit from K-phos for aluminum?

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

You can use the Kphos on anything. I heat the part up, spray it with kphos, bake it to warm it back up to 150ish, then spray the KG. Dont touch the part in between or wipe it down, you will get fibers on the metal that you cant see, even with lint free rags I have seen fibers show up that I could not see before spraying. I spend about 5 minutes blowing the part off with 130psi of air before starting anything.

 

[MitchInOR]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

I have experienced if you get the kphos on so heavy it puddles or runs you will see that in the finish. I just use a light coat with the airbrush.
I think Granger carries aluminum oxide.

 

[gunnergirl81]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

It seems like you got your answers. But I will add one bit. KG lasts a long time. I've said it before that we buy 2400 by the gallon, and sealed cans keep for years. When we do motorcycle engines or parts we have to mix/match and it turns out good, and we've have good luck repeating the mix. It helps that the liquid paint color matches the dry.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[msahlm]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

Thanks all- hope to have my curing oven http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1797184&page=2

finished and all my parts and tools and supplies gathered very soon to start spraying and baking.

Does the K-phos clean out of an airbrush with Acetone or MEK?

I read in a place or two the suggestion to rub the entire gunkote finish with oil after removing it from the oven after it cools to around 100-120 degrees (especially with a flat finish) to get a consistantly burnished finish throughout. I guess it's mostly about rubbing down tiny suspended droplets of overspray that are then baked to the surface to cause a tiny knobule texture that reflects light differently- Intuitively it makes sense, but I'm a little worried to start rubbing oil or anything into my brand-new new gunkote. Any guidance on this? Is it worthwhile, and what kind of oil- just like a 3-in-one or gun oil? I have a lot of light bearing oil for swamp-cooler bearings, would that be alright?

Thanks for the info Kenda- but it took me several attempts to read it all as it's very hard to concentrate with that world-class-ass shaking in my face.

 

[nickdahick]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

I have done over 30 guns and a few knives in the last few months. This was after almost 2 years of getting set up for it and researching. Here is what I have learned:

On aluminum, ano is recomended, but not neccessary. If you are getting parts anode prior to coating, make sure they do not seal it. Otherwise, blast at 30-40 psi and hit it with K-phos before you spray and bake.

With K-Phos, you only need a little. I bought the 16 oz. bottle and have used less than 1/4 of the bottle in all of the projects that I have done. It is a very light fog to cover the parts and that is all you need. wiping or brushing it on is a waste of time. you will quickly figure out how to do it on carbon steel by watching the surface color change when it drys. The instructions say to use after blasting and degreasing the parts. for best results, spray parts at room temp, 65-75 deg., and allow to air dry at same. Takes less than 10 minutes if coated right. Then pre heat parts, spray, and bake.

As for putting on thicker coating, Chris will tell anyone that is a mistake. Should be 3-5 mils thick. Very light coats in 6 different directions until color is achieved. Too thick, and you risk chipping and faster wear.

Air cure is a pain, but looks decent when done. KG suggests to use a heat gun in one hand, and the spray gun in the other. The beauty of this is, you get to control the curing of the product. Spray many very thin coats and stop as soon as you reach the color you were looking for. Chris says that if the coating is properly applied, it gives the bake on 2400 series a run for its money. One thing I have noticed, though close, the coating colors are not an exact match between the air cure and bake on.

Feel free to IM me if you have any other questions. I am not an expert, but have had a lot of help from the guys at KC and am turning out a pritty nice product.

nick

 

[msahlm]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

Great info, thanks!

One more question relative to the KG air cured. If I applied as you described, would there be any harm in placing the items (say even a rifle scope) in my curing oven with the temperature set at 100-110F. My PID temperature controller just arrived today and was thinking on the way home that it could work great to keep the oven set at lower temperatures (around 100F) for longer periods to help cure finishes on items that can not be baked at 300F.

Seems like even a cheapo rifle scope should be able to handle 100-130F as they can sometimes get hotter than that behind the seat of a truck here in NM. Seems like there would be some benefit to curing at 100F instead of 60F for a week or so- any thoughts.

 

[nickdahick]

Re: Need advice from KG Gunkoters… Please.

I wont be the one who will tell you to ever put the scope in the oven!!!! The problem is maintaining the heat. With a heat gun, not only are you heating the part, but you are also blowing the hot air across it which will help disapate the water out of the product. you can probably get away with heating the part in the oven, but you are going to have to keep heating it as you go. Both coatings take about the same time. using the air cure, your time is spent applying it. The bake on is spent drying before it bakes and bake time.

PM me if you need anything else

nick