Re: Need advice on AR-15 upper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuckyBrew</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: minsane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I feel the same way sub MOA out to 200 is great for me. Good to know that I may be able to get 6 inches out to 600. I really do find 1/4 MOA unbelievable. </div></div>
You did detect a whiff of sarcasm in my answer, right? </div></div>
Sig,,,I understand your doubt and there is nothing I can do to prove otherwise.
I can show you targets(well actually they are steel indents on a 2' square steel plate the last I shot at 600yrds) but what will that prove.
I can show you 1/2" groups at 100 yrds with some near 5 shot 1/4 inch groups but what will that prove.
My rifle is very predictable to at least 600yrds with my handloads .It DOES SHOOT INSIDE MOA(6") at 600 yrds!!
No matter what I say or how easy it is for me to say it(fact or fiction),,YOU will just as easily blow it off and say "how easy it is to make these claims"
.If I'm making a stretch,it would have to be the claim of "All day long"
.Quite honestly ive never shot all day long,but every time I shoot at this distance in calm wind conditions my results on target are consistent at that range.
There is no proof on the internet so whatever
(snip)</div></div>
Since our esteemed OP has disappeared, I was not going to continue on this thread, however, I believe that I owe you the courtesy of an answer.
Bucky, you and others can make all the claims of phenomenal, flawless accuracy you want, I chose to disregard them. Beyond that, any time someone makes such claims, I consider any other statement they make with the same jaundiced eye. Before you sputter further and come back with even more baseless claims, let me explain.
I have been shooting for a long time, and I have seen (or even did myself) some amazing shots, but these are not the norm. These are far outstripped by the number of bad shoots I have seen and taken.
A good shot is subjective, and certainly dependant on the target/purpose. A hunter who is able to kill his prey with a properly placed shot does not need to be MOA perfect; he (she) needs to be able to stalk his prey, indentify it, and get a shot off in what may be less than perfect circumstances at a target that may or may not be moving. If the deer falls down DRT from a bullet placed in his boiler room, MOA accuracy is not required. Group size is irrelevant as long as from a cold barrel, the rifle system is able to place the bullet in a fair sized bullseye. You're a smart man, you make the equivalence to the other uses in which a rifle is employed.
But here we are talking about pure accuracy, and for that measure there is only one place to look to and that's competition shooting. Instead of saying, I shot at a trapezoidal-shaped piece of steel measuring 7.254 inches on one of its sides, there are standards and records. Also, over the years, targets have been keeping up with the level of achievements.
So, the current level of targets for High power/Service rifle is a 2 MOA 10-ring and a 1MOA X-ring. In F-class, the 10-ring is a 1MOA affair (actually a touch smaller,) and 0.5 MOA X-ring. The size of a group is also very important. Just so you know, to me any group size less than 10 or better yet 20 is meaningless. The more the merrier and the more accurate your measurements will be. This includes ALL the shots, called and uncalled flyers.
At 100 and 200 yards, my match rifles (.223 and .308) will devour a hole in the paper, especially if the range is sheltered from the wind. All I have to do is keep the target dot on the little point on the target and pull the trigger without disturbing the rifle. It's very easy and if the rifle system doesn't do that, there is no need to go any further.
Here we are talking 600 yards and that means the F-class target 10-ring is 6 inches across, the X-ring is 3 inches. When I go to odcmp.org and look at the records for 600 yards in Service Rifle, (20 rounds prone), a person shooting subMOA with iron sights would have a score of 200-20. I found nothing even close to that. I have found many mid to high 190s (with each point under 200 being a shot outside the 2 MOA 10-ring,) but the X-count, which is the 1 MOA ring is not anywhere near 20.
In F-class, the scores are about the same, maybe a touch higher. A subMOA rifle system (shooter, rifle, ammo, scope) will have a score of 200-x where x is a number greater than 0 but less than 21. This is called a clean, and if a shooting system can do that each and every time it comes to the line, I call that an MOA shooter. If it can get a 200-20X, every time, I call that a true half-MOA shooting system.
I have been shooting F-class for several years, and I can assure you that I have seen very few cleans at 600 and I don't remember any at 1000, though I saw one that came to within one shot of it. And we are talking F-open here, with the fancy, heavy rifles, rests and advanced calibers and riflescopes that will let you see Uranus and its moons.
So, as you can see, it's all a matter of perspective and you can see why I do not believe ANYONE who says they are a subMOA shooter at 600 yards, or even 300 yards.
Sinister posted something sometime back about how they test the accuracy of rifles at some agency or group or other. The rifles are locked into a device and shot at a sheltered range. That's a very different rifle system, where only two things matter; rifle and ammo.
Now, that I have insulted all the self-professed subMOA shooters here, let's go back to the subject. So when Psywar posted the OP which I repeat here:
"Hello,
I have a Seekins AR-15 lower inbound (yahoo!) and I need an upper for it. I bought a RRA lpk for the stripped lower, but will put in a Geissele DMR or JP trigger soon.
I want to shoot out to 600 yards, so I am thinking a 18-20" barrel with 1:7 or 1:8 twist so to stabilize 77 / 80 gr SMKs. I'd like a FF rail forend for attaching optics and a bipod.
I was thinking:
a Larue Stealth upper (Lothar Walther barrel)
an APA upper (Broughton 5C barrel)
a custom Denny's Gun (Krieger barrel)
a custom MSTN (WOA barrel)
assuming roughly the same price ($1200+), are any one of these options clearly better than the rest? I am a decent shooter, but I try to buy quality, even when I am not worthy of the hardware.
thanks in advance for your opinions,
psywar "
I was going to answer that anyone of those would be fine, I seriously doubt that his shooting system would be limited by the accuracy of any of these uppers. Properly built, none are "clearly better" than the others.
