Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

[ReaperDriver]

After reading this recent thread Hide link and two straight weeks of chasing my tail on load development - I've decided to simplify and need some advice on where to go.

I currently have 4 different bags of brass types (FC, WIN, BHA, R/P) with another batch on the way (Lapua), 4 different bullets (155 SMK Palma, 168AMAX, 175 SMK, 178 AMAX), 4 different types of powder (RL-15, IMR-4064, IMR-4895, TAC) and two different primers (FED210 and CCI).

My primary use will be LR 500-1000 yds Steel and some occasional 600 yd F-Class and Tac matches. The gun is a REM SPS-T 20". I went primarily with the 175SMKs based on the common notion that they seem to preform better at longer range than the 168s or lower weight bullets. I haven't shot at 1000 yet, but I just shot at 650 yesterday and had MUCH better luck with my 168AMAXs than I did with the 175SMKs. Should I stick with the 175s for getting out to 1000 yds or should I stick with the load that seems to be shooting well in my gun? I should say the 168AMAXs have seemed to shoot slightly better than the 175SMKs at everything from 100-650yds so far. Is there a distance point where the 175s will surpass the 168s? Or maybe I just lucked into an accuracy node for the 168s that I haven't found yet in the 175s. I'm getting a bit tired of all this "load development" and I want to get back to just shooting and working on getting better with the gun.

Any suggestions on Bullet, brass, powder combos to stick with for now, especially for a 20" tube trying to get out to 1000yds?

 

[kwild]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

To me it sounds like you have way to many varibles going on. If your rifle is shooting 168 better then the 175s at 600 then use them. I have only used the 175smks and 165 gmks and they have been good for me out to 700m shot with 44.5 gr re15. What groups are you getting and how far is your weight spread? What about brass prep?

 

[jrob300]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

I would not sleep at night if I had THAT many variables at once.

If it was me, (and it was not that long ago) I would get SOMETHING to shoot, so you have a goto load. This way, if you ever have questions about anything on your rig or in your head, you can go back to it and double check. Once you have some (anything) shooting to your accuracy expectations (not necessarily velocity) then start other development. Even then one or two variables at a time.

Set realistic goals. Then every once in a while have a little chat with yourself and ask, "Is what I'm doing right now getting me towards my goal?" It's easy to get lost during development.

John

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not sleep at night if I had THAT many variables at once.

If it was me, (and it was not that long ago) I would get SOMETHING to shoot, so you have a goto load. This way, if you ever have questions about anything on your rig or in your head, you can go back to it and double check. Once you have some (anything) shooting to your accuracy expectations (not necessarily velocity) then start other development. Even then one or two variables at a time.

Set realistic goals. Then every once in a while have a little chat with yourself and ask, "Is what I'm doing right now getting me towards my goal?" It's easy to get lost during development.

John </div></div>

Yep, this is exactly the chat I've had with myself. I feel my "load development" is not getting me to my goal of 1 or two "go to" rounds like you suggest. I just jumped back into reloading - and I think I mistakenly thought I should try a lot of different load combos as a trial and error thing to see what works and then tweak that. The problem is I was sitting down at the computer trying to order all my reloading gear all at once and at the time it seemed like a good idea to order everything at once. So in addition to the reloading equipement - I bought a little bit of this and a little bit of that in terms of bullets and powder. In retrospect, I should have just gotten one proven combo and worked that before moving on.

So that's where I'm at right now - trying to decide on which combo to run with 1st and keep the variables to a minimum. I'm going to stick with Lapua brass (when it gets here) and probably the RL-15 powder since that's what I initally did all my workups with. So I'm trying to decide on which bullet to stick with. AS I said, the 168 AMAX load at 2645fps has given consistantly good accuracy from 100-600 yds - but I fear it will not hold up out to 1000yds. I found an accuracy node with the 175 SMKs, 42.8 of RL-15 and FC brass but it only chrono'd out to 2500 and I don't think that will stay supersonic to 1K. I've gotten as high as 45.0 RL-15 (2665fps) but the accuracy has only been about 1-1.25MOA, which is quite a bit worse than what I was seeing with the lighter loads.

EDIT: I should have added earlier that while I have that many different types of brass and powder on hand - I ONLY used the FC brass and RL-15 powder during the workup to keep the variables to a min. The only thing I did swap out was bullet types and powder loads. I just can't seem to find that OCW that my gun likes that will get me out to 1000yds.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

If you aren't seeing pressure signs with 45.0gr Re15 i'd keep going, you should be getting really close to another accuracy node as long as you aren't getting pressure signs. 175's at 2500 isn't fast enough, you should keep going until you either get pressure signs, or find the accuracy node. I myself prefer to load to a target velocity, and shoot for low Standard Deviation so I can minimize the vertical spread on my groups at long range.

Shooting 1-1.25 groups sounds like you're in a scatter node, and you just need to push through it.

Branden

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

My 20" sps load is 46.0g of varget over the 155 palma. It flies well to 1000 and If I were you I would use the Lapua brass too.

 

[desertHK]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

It's better to be an expert at one thing than try to be Jack of all trades. I'm just saying....

 

[Swan]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

Same gun. Shot the 175 smk's a bit at 1k with decent results... HSM stuff, going around 2550 fps. Just started shooting the Lapua 155's and like the potential. Shootin em with FC brass, Varget @ 46.8gr and averaging 2770 so far with good results to 500m. Have not tried em at 1000 yet but thinking they will do great. I'm beginning to believe the light bullets are the way.

For example: 500m dope, 175's = about 3.8 mils
155's = about 3 mils

Thats proof enuf for me.

 

[desertHK]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

For the scenars, you may want to give it a bit more oomph. The magic number is around 2900 fps. I shoot primarily the 155 scenars, but I also have a load for the 175 SMK for rainy days.

 

[Swan]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

ya thats what I was thinking. But, I have to FL size the FC brass and the charge is creeping up into the neck, not sure how much I can cram in there. Stuffed 47.7gr when I only neck sized but was pretty stiff dropping the bolt handle on most of em, no pressure signs though. The groups were opening up above 47.1grs at 100 yds as well. Maybe different/better brass is needed for a high charge of Varget?

Do these Lapua 155's stabilize better further out? Are 100yd groups not indicative of the bullet's LR capability?

 

[Swan]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

btw... 20" barrel

 

[desertHK]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ya thats what I was thinking. But, I have to FL size the FC brass and the charge is creeping up into the neck, not sure how much I can cram in there. Stuffed 47.7gr when I only neck sized but was pretty stiff dropping the bolt handle on most of em, no pressure signs though. The groups were opening up above 47.1grs at 100 yds as well. Maybe different/better brass is needed for a high charge of Varget?

Do these Lapua 155's stabilize better further out? <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Are 100yd groups not indicative of the bullet's LR capability?</span></span>
</div></div>

Not neccessarily. You can have a good group at 100 yards and have a sub par grouping at 300 yards. I usually test a load at 100, 300, 500, then a 1K. If it stays sub MOA at 500 yards, it is likely that it would do well at longer range. Remember, once you go beyond 600 yards, operator error is going to play a huge role in the opening of the grouping.

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

if it were me i would try the 155's with as much velocity you can get with still good accuracy with RL15, odds are you will find a good combo. I would stick with match primers they seem to give me smaller velocity spreads which helps long range

 

[MEGAfan]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

Reaper,

I'm in the same boat. I purchased everyting at once about a month ago. Recently, I was taking up to 8 different combinations of powders and bullets to the range for 6-hour power sessions while searching for the magic answers to which powder and bullet my rifle prefers, etc. Keeping track of the data has proved challenging to say the least *grin*. Now that I've added a good Chrono to the mix, I'm planning another outing this weekend, but I'm only going to take two bullet types in two weights each, while using the RE-15 for everything. My goal is to find the best 100 yard shooter combo this weekend for my rifle and then narrow the components down while testing various weights the following weekend, to get the velocity that I need to reach out to 1000 yards. I'm staying with 100 yards for now, until I find the right velocity/accuracy node. At that time, I'll have one load ready to begin testing at 500 yards and then 1000 yards.

I feel your pain, haha.

 

[REELDOC]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

Sometimes Varget and CCI BR2's are the keys to all 308 bolt gun wisdom. I wish I had taken that advice when I first started reloading. I have collected more different types of powders, bulelts and primers that most people would try in a lifetime. I've now pretty much quit messing with anything else.

Life became much better when I settled on Varget and 190's for 308 bolts, Varget and 175's for gas guns, 75 Hornady BTHP and Varget for .223's, and 220's and RE22 for 300mag. Dang shame that Varget isn't right for 300mags. Not to say that I didn't get good results with other combos in my guns Varget is more consistant in most environmental conditions and is more forgiving when I play with seating depths.

The only good thing that came out of all of my load testing is that I've got data on a gazillion powder/bullet combos just in case my go to powders and bullets suddenly disappear.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEGAfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reaper,

I was taking up to 8 different combinations of powders and bullets to the range for 6-hour power sessions </div></div>

I don't know how you guys are handling your test sessions with all those different powders and bullets, but my 300WM has shown a distaste for running powder A over powder B residue. Copper seems to work the same way. SMK's don't normally copper foul my barrel, Amax's a little more. If I fire SMK's over Amax copper, they start fouling much worse. So, in between test loads I clean my barrel thoroughly of the last powder/copper combination and then fire 1-2 foulers of the new combination to dirty the barrel. Adopting this technique reduced some stupidly large groups I was getting for no apparent reason during evaluation. Once I settle on a combo, then I only clean when the groups open up, or I am testing something new. YMMV

John

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

I would run load development with RL-15 and either the 175SMK or get some 155gr Scenars. If you have the NEW 155 Sierra Palma then they should be good. The older Palma's not so much.

Definitely tone down the number of variables. Once you get a good shooter, if you feel the need change ONE variable and see how that goes. Repeat until you have gone through all your combinations.

I like 168's but they are not the best bet for 1000 yard competition.

 

[JesseBB]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

Is that the old Palma or the new?

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would run load development with RL-15 and either the 175SMK or get some 155gr Scenars. If you have the NEW 155 Sierra Palma then they should be good. The older Palma's not so much.

Definitely tone down the number of variables. Once you get a good shooter, if you feel the need change ONE variable and see how that goes. Repeat until you have gone through all your combinations.

I like 168's but they are not the best bet for 1000 yard competition. </div></div>
Unfortunately I have a shiteload of the old 2155 Palma's. I might try to send them back (they're unopened) and get some scenars instead.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: Need advice on Bullet for LR steel/Competition

I just picked up a Steyr SSG 69 and bought a couple hundred Lapua 167 gr Scenars and 3 pounds of Varget. I can't wait to get it cracken!!

26" barrel 1-12"