Range Report Need advice on Light anti material use.

[Wintersborn]

Hello I would like some information that seems to be hard to find and was told that this is the place to ask.

I am interested in picking up a rifle for the potential of light anti material use. I don't think I will go with a 50 Cal parent caliber but that may change based on the information I get here. The largest commercial caliber we can own in the Socialist state of California is the .416 Barret.

I am looking at the .300RUM or the .338RUM/lapua mag. range of rifles for a more versatile use. My main question is if you take a .300RUM with a 240+gn bullet and a .338 with the same weight projectile at the same speed wouldn't the smaller .30 cal projectile penetrate better due higher sectional density ? I am not talking about standard bullets but custom made Solid copper/brass/& steel core designed for this use. I don't plan on shooting past 600-800 yards and I will be reloading the rounds and can have the projectiles made if I need to. I am interested in the theoretical protection of a road on my property against the possibility of a lightly armored car or truck.

So far the .300RUM seems to have the edge in reloading cost and possible penetration but with more barrel wear. Although if reloading the .50 cal variants isn't that much more to reload I would like to know more about them.


If anyone has knowledge on this subject I would appreciate some advice.

 

[jonaddis84]

This my friend is the kind of post that gets you on watch lists....

 

[dang472]

Can't say that I would be asking this question on the internet, but the 50 does the job without all the fluff and custom stuff you are proposing.

 

[varmint slayer]

This thread has some potential...

 

[ArmaHeavy]

This thread has some potential...

Yup.. Potential.

 

[varmint slayer]

Yup.. Potential.

Haha exactly...

 

[demolitionman]

awwww man, lol

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Why in the fuck do people ask stupid fuckin shit like this. Jesus Christ I will never understand why people are so fucking stupid. If you simply choose your words carefully because they carry meaning. Fuck it mods. Drop the ban hammer on me. I will take it. This guy is a retard and you can consider this an attack on a new member.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Why in the fuck do people ask stupid fuckin shit like this. Jesus Christ I will never understand why people are so fucking stupid. If you simply choose your words carefully because they carry meaning. Fuck it mods. Drop the ban hammer on me. I will take it. This guy is a retard and you can consider this an attack on a new member.

I take your statement more as thoughtful advice then as an attack. You care what happens to the OP because you said something.

If nobody wanted to help this new member out with his question then they would have not said anything at all, then the OP being without this prudent information would find himself in an odd predicament when some ATF(or some other local, state, or federal organization) agents decided to come to his door, wondering why he would need a rifle in that caliber to take out someone's engine block, and potentially put another person in harm's way(How far from the engine block to the steering wheel, and passengers? Did you factor that in?).

Never mind the Chris Dorner fiasco that just happened in his own state. Did everyone forget already? WOW.

 

[demolitionman]

You can never be too sure, OP might be a liberal, putting together some sort of anti-gun agenda media ploy under the premise of "you can get all the info you need to build anti-tank assault weapons easily online". "See, on the forums you can get whatever you need" These forums need to be outlawed".



I'd just like to think he's just looking after the good of his family property. Hope he gets what he needs and has the right intentions! Otherwise....I'll sit back and get the popcorn and watch this thread blow up.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

All the mentally challenged individual needed to do was leave out the anti-material short bus A-team lingo and inquired about the cartridges themselves he would not be having his 8lb water head stepped on.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

With true respect, the OP does not need to post the question here, all they really need to do is look it up in Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell

I will simply add the AP rounds are not entirely legal in the US of A, and that if you want more info than is available above, you're on your own, nobody here will help you further, and prudently so.

As for why the hostility toward your query, it closely resembles provocations from anti-gunners who have appeared on the forum many time in the past.

Best fortune in your quest, elsewhere...

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4WQIA_enUS512US512&q=wintersborn

Greg

 

[Guest]

Hello I would like some information that seems to be hard to find and was told that this is the place to ask.

Guns suck for wagging a local war. If your really looking to bring it to your enemy on your own turf, think about the following resupply outlets and their ability to provide everything you need.
WalMart
Lowes
Home Depot
Ace Hardware
Electronic and HVAC stores
NAPA, Auto Zone, Advance Auto or another brand of your choice.
Local Drug store, or American Scientific(great place for real good stuff!)



Given the choice of having any gun/s I wanted to fight with over 20 minutes of free shopping in one of the above, I'll take the above and would have a set down cup of coffee for the remaining 10.
Only stupid people think a gun is the be all, end all for an insurgent war. Quit watching TV or playing video games and try to think for yourself and, out of the box.
In confusion or weather there is opportunity, Uncle taught many how to start the former and operate in the latter, but we are just what if'ing,.... here right?

 

[dang472]

We need a lot more information to make an informative reply. This all depends on the location of the machine gun nest, sweep radius of the turrent on the gazebo, number of alligators in the moat, voltage of electric fence, and most importantly....the level of armor the average vacuum salesman has on his vehicle.

 

[Wintersborn]

Wow I am very confused by the reactions, did I break a forum rule I was not aware of ?

The information I am asking about (penetration potential based on cross sectional density) is not illegal. The hardware I am referring to (.30/.338 cal and steel core or solid brass bullets) are not illegal. Shooting a vehicle to disable it is not a act of terrorism if you are defending your family, on your property.

I figured that someone here may have had real world experience using the .338 at least since it is in common use and is advertised for such a role.

I am dumfounded by the paranoid over reactions by those that somehow imagined I am a terrorist looking for illegal information.

Honestly re read my post and take a look at all the shit you guys just made up.

 

[Mendy300wm]

Well in that case since its no big deal, these fine people would be more than happy to answer your question. Hell they might even come on out and see exactly what you're talking about, great customer service if you ask the right question.

http://www.atf.gov/contact/

 

[Wintersborn]

With true respect, the OP does not need to post the question here, all they really need to do is look it up in Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell

I will simply add the AP rounds are not entirely legal in the US of A, and that if you want more info than is available above, you're on your own, nobody here will help you further, and prudently so.

As for why the hostility toward your query, it closely resembles provocations from anti-gunners who have appeared on the forum many time in the past.

Best fortune in your quest, elsewhere...

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4WQIA_enUS512US512&q=wintersborn

Greg

I will reply to your because you were civil but I did not ask for information on illegal military grade Armor piercing rounds with depleted uranium etc. as per your link.
I am also not some anti gun spy sent here to infiltrate the secret forums and I can understand if this site has had issues with that but these kinds of reactions are just not warranted.

 

[Wintersborn]

Already checked with them that's why we all know in my state at least it is legal to use, own and purchase.
But thanks for another smart ass uneducated reply.

 

[Guest]

Shooting a vehicle to disable it is not a act of terrorism if you are defending your family, on your property.

If I am defending my family disabling the perps ride will be my last thought, putting a rd correctly threw the glass to canoe his head comes first.
If you want to know how to stop a vehicle with a bullet, I'd suggest boning up on were mfgs locate their ECM's. If your wanting to stop a truck with air brakes take out a spring brake hose or two, if it's a class 7 or 8 with a trailer tag the hoses between the tractor and trailer, the tractor protection valve will do your work for you.

If your wanting to stop a command track, APC, or M1 on main street that is different. That info is here as well, but before we tell gang-bangers and the like on an open forum as well, the first question that will come up is why do you need to know?

 

[dang472]

I'm pretty sure shooting a vehicle that happens to come onto your property is against the law. What if they were lost? What if they got the wrong house? What if they were simply turning around? Property rights are one thing, but firing upon a vehicle in the US is a little complicated.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Winterborn, it really all boils down to your tact in how it's asked. If your smart enough to know about sectional density and cartridge power couldn't you deduce the results on your own? You simply must be careful how things are asked and discussed these days. I am as much for freedom and self preservation as I think you can get but I select how, who and what I ask on the damn Internet.

 

[Ledzep]

Long story short, yes, a 240 gr .30 cal projo at the same speed as a 240 gr. .338 projo of similar construction/materials will likely penetrate ever-so-slightly more. However, any non-AP (something that's not tungsten carbide/hardened steel core) bullet, the difference will probably be so small it's not worth worrying about. Said bullet will even penetrate the air better and will probably have a higher ballistic coefficient (funny how that works).

On the down side, you're funneling more powder into a smaller hole, and will experience decreased barrel life.

 

[Wintersborn]

Winterborn, it really all boils down to your tact in how it's asked. If your smart enough to know about sectional density and cartridge power couldn't you deduce the results on your own? You simply must be careful how things are asked and discussed these days. I am as much for freedom and self preservation as I think you can get but I select how, who and what I ask on the damn Internet.

Given your replies I don't think "Tact" is the issue here and how is "I am interested in the theoretical protection of a road on my property against the possibility of a lightly armored car or truck." careless or tactless ? I believe that statements about headshots on the driver (no offense as I understand) has less "Tact" then disabling a vehicle.

The information in ballistics software or books on my reloading bench don't give me results for this application no I could not come up with reliable info on my own otherwise I would not have asked. I can guess but since this is where people with specific first hand knowledge are supposed to be, why not ask? Things like how much faster does a very dense and long bullet wear out .300RUM barrels? Or does the long heavy .30 cal bullets tumble on impact. Or does the longer bullet have more drag that may prevent full penetration etc.

I think what it boils down to is people being ignorant about what is legal in my state and over reacting with unrelated comments. Once more solid copper/brass and even LAP (mild steel core) bullets are legal in CA when used in a non pistol configuration. I can buy WW2 LAP .30 cal pulls and solid copper/brass competition bullets at many local retail stores. You can check with ATF your self or just call our local guy at the ATF, Wess Beck @ (916) 498-5700.

Maybe I should have just asked if any Military or LEO Snipers use the .300RUM vs the .338 Lapua mag for light anti material use. And asked for more details via PM or something so that others don't freak out.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

I apologize for my harshness early
On. It as really unnecessary but you seem to be competent and should be able to problem solve on sensitive things like this. That would also lead me to believe you would have common sense to know why a "theoretical" situation like that is not that well recieved on this forum. You could have worded it ways that would yield you the answers you seek without the knee jerk responses like the one I Gave. Good luck and welcome to the hide.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Yes, after seeing a few more of your posts, welcome to The 'Hide.

Please forgive my reluctance to reply directly to the core of your inquiry. Honestly, it unnerves me somewhat to be dealing in such info on an open forum, for reasons the relate to liability and legality.

The best advice I can suggest would be to consider monolithic (solid copper, etc.) projectiles, preferably without any expansion-enhancing hollow points or polymer tips.

They should provide the sort of positive penetration on softer skinned objects without crossing over any legal distinctions concerning armor piercing capabilities. Again, a longer, heavier projectile with a higher sectional density could be of help here. A higher muzzle velocity would be better than a lower one for reasons of positive penetration and a flatter trajectory. Also, a 30 caliber would be better than a 22 caliber and so forth.

I have a personal aversion to chamber capacities greater than the .30-'06, and consider the .280 Rem to be the most practical and effective chambering for delivering energy from the capacity. Maybe a load with a heavier Barnes bullet could be effective, I tend to have rather high respect for the .280's ability to deliver energy ontarget in an indefinitely tolerable manner. Perhaps the more surgical delivery of energy in smaller, more discrete increments might be a useful strategy than just blasting something once. I even wonder how a Garand chambered for .280 Rem might work out.

Essentially, thinking in terms of more energy delivery; with less expansion, more penetration as an abstract exercise in terminal performance, should put you on a more productive track.

I really don't feel comfortable exploring this subject further or more directly. It's not something I'd have a use for or want to think about much more deeply.

Greg

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Id think some of the heavy Barnes TTSX or LRX bullets would work about as good as any. I don't have any firsthand experience with stopping cars, but I think I remember hearing that our boys overseas were regularly stopping cars with a .300 Win Mag so a .300 RUM or Lapua should do. Personally, instead of straight up asking, I would've worded the question asking experience/pictures from people who have shot steel targets with heavier calibers and what caliber they were using/how thick was the steel/what type of steel/etc. Youd get much more real world answers that way, including pictures. Ive seen many mild steel targets with holes all through them posted here, usually with a .338 Lapua most likely. That's what Id go with. Id also ask what bullets penetrated more effectively and which ones failed to go through the target.

 

[kraigWY]

I'm gonna answer the question, just because I can.

According to Weeks, in his "Men Against Tanks" he wrote of the light armor on the WWI tanks. When they first started showing up, the infantry had no means of defense (excluding artillery).

They, the infantryman found they could pull the bullets on their service rounds, re-insert them backwards and they penetrated the light armor of the day. An added benefit was the lead core would get extremely hot and as it entered the vehicle it would set the gas and ammo on fire.

It's quite an interesting book, matching infantry against armor and the history of such tactics.

 

[Ledzep]

I've shot m2 ball .30-06 with bullets backwards at 1/2" ar500 plate. 5 rounds 20yd, no penetration. Big 3/8" craters, and paint spall on the back side, but nowhere near what you get from M2 AP. The real AP ammo cracked throughthe back side and left huge core-shaped cones on the front. Still no total penetrations. If you want to defeat real armor, large caliber AP is required. Often bigger than 50bmg.

 

[wilecoyote]

re-placing the bullet in the case after reversing it was a poor's man dirty trick performed by our mountain troops during WW1 , and when they were caught with those ammos, they were quickly executed from their adversaries_ the use was for close range only, hoping to boost the Carcano's wounding power on the trench warfare_ I wonder how thin can be an armor(?) plate to be disturbed from such task_

 

[G60]

I don't know the OP's particular situation, but there is cartel activity/illicit marijuana grows on private and public lands in parts of rural CA unbeknownst to the property owners until they run across the operations or some rather hostile individuals.

Just something that came to mind as a couple summers ago a friend of mine had a rather tense encounter with some armed individuals on his own farmland.

 

[tobedell]

Personal experience showed me that a high alloy 300WM can penetrate 3/8 AR400 out to 300yds. Bought some steel for my range and before you know it, my targets had lots of holes that looked like someone had taken a punch to it. High alloy + 3000fps = holes.

 

[VJJPunisher]

oh wow, where has this gem been hiding and how did I miss it?

 

[glock63]

Load up some M2 162 AP bullets in a .300 ultra and be done with it. 3300 fps should be easy, and no potential legal issues to deal with. Velocity pierces armor more so than mass.

 

[Boogaloo]

This:

And a few of these:

Outta punch through just about any Toyota or Nissan you want to punch through I would think?

 

[jwp6114]

I have experimented with pulled specialized .30 cal projectiles reloaded in a 300wby magnum for a client... We had no intentions on defeating ar500 or armor but just satisfying curiosity of their effects on thick plates of cold steel and aluminum. We were able to penetrate up to 2" thick slabs of cold steal. And couldn't find a thick enough piece of aluminum to stop the projectiles.

 

[DanGuy48]

It seems to me you have no room to talk about paranoia here. You are the one talking about needing anti-material ammunition to protect your property against intruding vehicles. Either you are expecting trouble, which sounds paranoid and/or criminal to me, or you're not, in which case you'd be firing at an unidentified target, which sounds dangerously paranoid.

Wow I am very confused by the reactions, did I break a forum rule I was not aware of ?

The information I am asking about (penetration potential based on cross sectional density) is not illegal. The hardware I am referring to (.30/.338 cal and steel core or solid brass bullets) are not illegal. Shooting a vehicle to disable it is not a act of terrorism if you are defending your family, on your property.

I figured that someone here may have had real world experience using the .338 at least since it is in common use and is advertised for such a role.

I am dumfounded by the paranoid over reactions by those that somehow imagined I am a terrorist looking for illegal information.

Honestly re read my post and take a look at all the shit you guys just made up.

 

[rideHPD]

While what has been said in this thread is capable of doing what the OP requested, I think it's somewhat important to reiterate the concerns other members have proliferating this kind of material. This thread is in the public domain of the internet, which can be had for the most part across the globe. When you start to ask about how to defeat systems in current use of LEO/MIL then you degrade their ability to serve their constituents, us. If you think that AQ/Taliban/Laskar-e-Jhangvi/etc. don't do their homework, you have to be pretty ignorant of their intelligence. Some of the IEDs and other devices have been designed by graduates of American universities, even MIT (rumored/true, I don't recall), and they have the access and knowledge of how to use what they have around them. The systems used to defeat our enemies are only weakened by the access to knowledge about their specifications. This is something I am coming across while researching ballistic armor for several projects I am involved with. I have personally found enough information on this site to guide my work, and to think that someone else with benign intentions might as well is very reasonable. The easier this information is to access, the easier is it for someone to put 2+2 together and use it against our interests. While I understand the request that was initially propositioned, it is not one that in my opinion should be answered, and this is an opinion formed after navigating through the murky waters of what fundamental knowledge/research is OK to be disseminated and what isn't, I am inclined to think that the government thinks so as well, and would at the very least not want it being passed around. As someone who reads white papers on a daily basis to guide my work I understand the want to know whether something works rather than whether it should work, but this is the kind of thing that if you know you should keep to yourself or find out for yourself, so that if anyone else wants to find out they have to do all the work on their own. Someone will probably say that this is against/in violation of the 1st Amendment, but that only upholds our right to say what we want to; it doesn't say that it is always a good idea. Use good judgement and don't spit in the face of the people who already put themselves at great risk to serve us by making their jobs harder, regardless if your actions will have a real effect.

 

[anthonylapoint]

This thread should have been deleted. What's your name friend cause ill keep an eye on the news for you. You obviously don't live in America cause in the USA, we have law enforcement for those type of situations and if you feel the need to take matters into your own hands, don't drag our guns and snipershide down with you.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Strange question OP, some stranger reactions, youtube the Battle of Warsaw and figure it out.

 

[Strykervet]

Redacted, I didn't realize he only had 5 posts (all in this thread) and was asking a question like this, and that those 5 posts were all he truly had.

But it pissed me off a bit because I got attacked (by some of you same people) when I asked about acquiring an M203 and the HE rounds for it. I wanted to know how to get the rounds legally, who to go through, etc. Because I can't have MG's here, I wanted this to be my one "toy", my one weapon that I have just for giggles and nothing more.

But I couldn't get a decent answer on it, just trolls making fun of me and my question. And it seemed none of them understood anything with regards to the process required to get these rounds (there are hoops, you have to have explosives storage lockers, etc.). Many claimed they were just illegal. But they aren't, they are just NFA items, DD's like anything else.

But hey, why let a few facts and some honesty get in the way of good ole fashioned disinformation and heckling?

Oh, I also like how the OP has essentially been charged and convicted on what seems to me to be a fairly benign question. You guys are better than that. Grow up. Help him or ignore him, but don't turn his thread into another one of these goddamn "lets fuck with the OP" threads.

 

[Brasscow]

I don't understand why you wouldn't just buy a few ammo boxes of m2 ap and do what you will with them.

 

[Kilmore]

This entire response is redacted for National Security interests. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX get a .408 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

 

[timelinex]

Wow talk about some people needing to take off their tin foil hats. He didn't ask anything too crazy.

You guys do realize that people discuss how to make meth online, and it's not illegal. Freedom of information and speech. Anyone remember 'anarchy cookbook', I think that would make some of you lose your minds. If your afraid of discussing this stuff online, 'they' have already won. Freedom of speech and information isn't real unless your not scared of excersicing it.

As for the wrong people getting their hands on this 'valuable' information. You kidding me? 50bmg'd are easily accessible and the military surplus AP rounds that go with them. If a bad guy wants information on how to do something, he will find it.

 

[Grizzdude]

This thread should have been deleted. What's your name friend cause ill keep an eye on the news for you. You obviously don't live in America cause in the USA, we have law enforcement for those type of situations and if you feel the need to take matters into your own hands, don't drag our guns and snipershide down with you.

Wow you must think a cop is near by everyone at all times! If I had to call law enforcement to come help me it would take them a 3 hour drive into deep mountains and they probably still couldn't find my place. People really need to man up and realize cops are not required to protect people.

 

[thejeep]

this thread is funny. A small dose of paranoia is healthy. Can you pass the paranoia test?

1. Which should you be the the most paranoid about? a. $-17 trillion b. asia c. mexico d. arms trade treaty

op let us know what works out the best for you.

 

[bogeybrown]

Yup.. Potential.

Hahahaha, LMAO. I actually worked with this ATF Agent on a Task Force years ago, didn't expect to "run into him" here.