Need Advice On My First Build

[jmar]

I'm building my first long range rig. I opted for the .223 AR-15 platform for a number of reasons. Cheap ammo, cheap drop in parts, low recoil. I will be shooting it from 600-1000 yards on average so I'm really wanting it to be as 1000 yard capable as possible. I wanted my budget to stay around $700 but I'm willing to bump it up to $1000. Also I'm not counting optics in my budget but if you know any good optics for under $400 let me know. This rifle is meant to be an in between, between a trainer and a long range bolt setup. Another reason I went for the AR-15 is becuase I don't own any home defense guns and feel I need one. And while a long heavy barrel AR isn't the best for home defense it's better than nothing, and better than a bolt gun.

So far I have mainly been researching barrels. I was told to go with a 24" 1:7 twist. Do you guys agree with that? However for overall handiness I think a 20" barrel would suit me better do you thinking dropping it down to 20" would make too much a difference at 1000?

I found 2 possible candidates for my barrel, Lilja and Black Hole Weaponry 'feel free to recommend any others'. The Lilja is much cheaper but they only offer the barrel in a 23" 1:8 twist rate. In your guy's experiences will the 1:8 be fast enough to stabilize heavy grain bullets up to 1000 yards? I should also mention I'm only going to shoot cartridges with OAL short enough to fit in a AR mag.



As you can tell i'm pretty hung up on picking the perfect barrel. But I also have no idea what uppers, rails, bolts, scope mounts, etc are out there. Any advice is much appreciated.

 

[Kadams1563]

I don't think your goals are realistic... /thread

IMO if you want to have anything resembling success at 1000 yards with a .223 I would get a bolt gun. I would also strongly suggest a different caliber if most of your shooting is 600-1000.

Save your frustration and do it right the first time. If you must get an AR for home defense just get a 16 inch gun. Better yet get a bolt gun set up properly and a $200 shotgun for HD.

 

[346ci]

1000yds is AR-10 platform ranges.

The .223 will be fine out to 300-400, 600 is pushing it and will help you read wind. I'm not a fan of long barrels so a 20" would be my max, http://ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/38007/12239

 

[Black max]

I'm building my first long range rig. I opted for the .223 AR-15 platform for a number of reasons. Cheap ammo, cheap drop in parts, low recoil. I will be shooting it from 600-1000 yards on average so I'm really wanting it to be as 1000 yard capable as possible. I wanted my budget to stay around $700 but I'm willing to bump it up to $1000. Also I'm not counting optics in my budget but if you know any good optics for under $400 let me know. This rifle is meant to be an in between, between a trainer and a long range bolt setup. Another reason I went for the AR-15 is becuase I don't own any home defense guns and feel I need one. And while a long heavy barrel AR isn't the best for home defense it's better than nothing, and better than a bolt gun.

So far I have mainly been researching barrels. I was told to go with a 24" 1:7 twist. Do you guys agree with that? However for overall handiness I think a 20" barrel would suit me better do you thinking dropping it down to 20" would make too much a difference at 1000?

I found 2 possible candidates for my barrel, Lilja and Black Hole Weaponry 'feel free to recommend any others'. The Lilja is much cheaper but they only offer the barrel in a 23" 1:8 twist rate. In your guy's experiences will the 1:8 be fast enough to stabilize heavy grain bullets up to 1000 yards? I should also mention I'm only going to shoot cartridges with OAL short enough to fit in a AR mag.



As you can tell i'm pretty hung up on picking the perfect barrel. But I also have no idea what uppers, rails, bolts, scope mounts, etc are out there. Any advice is much appreciated.

You are not going to get to 1k with any kind of success with your choice of rifle. In my opinion you need to re-think your decision...

 

[jmar]

From what I've seen online out of a 24" .223 will stay supersonic to 1000. So is it the effect of the wind that makes it a poor cartridge? I just thought it'd make a good trainer. I'm not looking to blast milk jugs at 1000, I'm just looking for at least 2 MOA at 1000. If you guys really think a .223 is not capable of that I'm open to cartridge and rifle suggestions. Keep in mind that I need cheap easy to find cartridges since i'm just starting out.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The AR 15 is a great training platform, and the .223 is excellent for doing this, but having competed with a 24" .223 AR at 600yd, trying to get it out to 1000yd is a bit of a bridge too far for an eager beginner. It's going to be an uphill battle. 600yd is a realistic maximum distance for the .223 if you really want to spend the bulk of you time learning LR marksmanship instead of being frequently frustrated and disappointed.

Listen to the folks who've been there, the longer distances. The 600-1000yd stretch you're talking about specifically is far better served by chamberings like the .260, or 6.5CM, or even the .243, and especially the .308.

This is the point where some folks are probably going to chime in and contradict me. Some of them are going to be right, but they are not beginners.

But what do I know...?

Never combine goals when you're new at this stuff. Buy the rifle outright. Stick with the simplest approach to get your skills. Building a rifle first time around, then taking it out to extreme and questionable distances is a marriage made in Purgatory. You'll be playing Whack-a-Mole trying to figure out whether it's the gun, the chambering, or yourself that's barking up those tall, tall trees.

Buy this rifle. I have two, a .223 and a .308. Several chamberings are available, the .243 or the .308 are the better ones for you, and the .308 is the best of the two, hands down, for 1000yd.

The scope is OK for a hunting rifle, but will need to be replaced with something a lot more capable for shooting beyond deer hunting distances. Reasonable deer hunting distances. Buy this scope base (short action), these rings (medium height, and remember you''ll need 2), and this scope. Put on a Harris bipod, or one of its many clones.

If/when you do, you will have duplicated my own 1000yd trainer, with affordable but effective components. I replaced the stock on my 308 with this, but it's really not necessary at first. The factory stock is very adequate o get you up and running. But the replacement is very nice, and very easy to swap out.

When I say that I have a trainer, I'm also saying that with a capable trainer, I don't need anything more complex or costly. Savage replacement barrels are easily available and affordable, and I can change my own.

I probably make this same post about once a week on SH, and have been doing so here, or something very much like it, for many years. I would not recommend something I am not personally familiar with. Many folks ignore this advice, and you can feel confident doing that too. But you won't go wrong taking it.

With the essentially identical 223 and 308, I can do the bulk of my training with the 223 at the shorter distances. I train at 100yd and 300yd, using bulk 55gr FMJ at the close distance, and 75gr HDY HPBT-Match handloads at the longer distance. The 75gr load is what I shot at 600 in both the Stag and the Savage 11VT, and it's quite competitive. Any of these factory ammunition choices will work as well.

Later, when you're able to tell that you're good, and that it's not you that's causing a problem; then build your first LR AR, keeping in mind that the AR works best in .223, and that trying to build a 1000yd capable 223 AR is at least 50% pissing into the wind.

I skipped straight to the chase and simply bought this. Yes, you can build one cheaper, but honestly, its a good price for a great gun. A $700 budget is just plain not gonna float your boat.

Seriously contemplating using a 1000yd capable rifle (they're just toooo long and heavy) for Home Defense is not something I'd be suggesting. Get a Ruger American Pistol 9mm.

Greg

 

[Rerun7]

I agree with others here. If you really want to shoot 1k yds on the cheap then get a bolt gun. If you want a self defense gun then get something made for that.

I've tried several times creating guns that are multi-role. Truth is, they didn't do any of them overly welling I was always left wanting more in one area or the other. Much happier now that I've got dedicated platforms for each.

Heck, go used if you are just getting started, that's what I did many years ago. Do some research, shop around and you could get a rifle for for shooting steel and a pistol for home defense and still be in the $1k range.

 

[GH41]

How does one build a $700 rifle with a $300++ barrel on it. You will have trouble building the upper for that! These cheap bullets you mentioned a couple of times.... A cheap factory round to come even close to doing what you want to do will cost a buck + each and your rifle might not like them. I think your expectations are way too high.

 

[Iamero]

I recommend you pick up a used Savage 10 or Tikka CTR in 308 or 6.5 for your 600-1,000 yard ambitions. They can be had for $600-700 easy with a decent stock and threaded barrel if you're desiring a brake or a can. If optics aren't included in that budget then you still have $300-400 and you can go buy a cheap remington or mossberg 12 gauge setup for home defense. Now you've got the best of both worlds and you won't break the bank shooting a 308. You might even have a little money left over after buy those two guns to get you some ammo if you do it right.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I built an AR in 223 with occasional 1000 yard shots in mind. I knew from the start I was swimming upstream and it wouldn't be easy. I also knew that it had to be a dedicated long range rifle, not a multi purpose rifle. After a year with it I've learned a ton, first thing being that I wouldn't recommend anyone begin learning long range shooting this way. It was extremely frustrating for a few months to say the least. You haven't said if you plan to hand load for this rifle, but it is necessary as far as I'm concerned. Also, your budget is batshit crazy. $300 barrel+$200 trigger+$150 handguard+some shipping costs and you're out of money with a long ways to go. Plus you still end up with a terrible home defense gun. I actually wouldn't recommend a semi auto in any caliber for learning long range shooting. Its hard work running a gas gun, if I forget to load my bipod just right or apply a little too much pressure with my thumb my reliably .5-.6 MOA rifle turns into a 1.5 MOA turd. It took me a long time to figure that stuff out, but I can pick up someone else's bolt gun and shoot sub MOA groups with my eyes closed. It actually feels like cheating compared to a semi auto. For the record I love my LR 223 AR and have been successful at 1000 yards with it but I'm too stubborn to quit while I'm ahead.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Well, I will add that a friend attempted to build an LR 223 AR patterned after my Stag Model 6, and had some considerable success with a pretty inexpensive barrel. It's still probably not what I'd consider any better than the Stag at 1000yd, but it can ease the budget concerns somewhat. I cannot offer any guarantees that these barrels are a sure solution to anything; I've never used one myself.

Can an AR shoot competitively against a bolt rifle? There are probably a very rare few which can, and my Stag appears to be in the running for that affirmation.

But no rifle is any better than it's shooter can shoot it, and that's beginning to be my problem. My age is beginning to hedge my bets unfavorably. It's just another challenge, is all.

When you build an AR, the most important part will be the barrel.

When I built my vanity upper (just to see what is involved, and to see if I had it in me) I bought a good barrel, then cheaped out on all the other components. It worked, but I wouldn't recommend it, because I firmly believe that I had a very strong element of luck working for me.

Luck is not a reliable strategy.

Greg

 

[NukeMMC]

I wholeheartedly agree with Greg's comments above, but will throw in my 2 cents also.

If you are dead set on building or buying an AR15-style rifle to start out with, which it sounds like you are, then do yourself a couple favors:

- As Greg said, the barrel is NOT where to skimp. If you were someone I had known for 20 years I would tell you the same thing. You can do just fine with an 18" MK12/SPR profile barrel out to 600. I have seen MK12s shot out to 1000 (by me more than once) but not with success unless it's dead calm ... and I mean DEAD CALM. Like a few others, I have competed at distance. My avatar is evidence of some success doing so. I shot an A2 20" AR with iron sights at 200, 300 and either 500 or 600 yards. I earned a Master classification doing so. That was with a John Holliger built, $1000 rifle with a PacNor 1:6.5" twist barrel shooting 77gr SMKs and Noslers at 200/300 and 80gr AMAX at 500/600. I shot it at 1000 more than once with 90gr JLK VLDs. I got my ass handed to me at 1000 with that rifle. Just not worth it.

- Go ahead with your AR but be realistic. Stick to 600 with it and learn Fundamentals Of Marksmanship. Learn reading and doping wind. Learn shooting in the wind ... when to hold, when to shoot, what are the most consistent conditions to shoot in. Find a local Highpower shooting guy who can give you some coaching. For optics, your budget is low. Always budget more for the glass than the rifle. In your shoes, a Vortex HS-T 4-16x44 with mil reticle is about as much as you need until you get lots of trigger time.

- DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE and oh yeah, DRY FIRE. Learn some trigger control. My best friend is a former USMC DI and they had recruits circled around 55gal "snap-in" barrels for a week before they saw live ammo.

- Download the linked info and read it, read it again and again.

- For what it's worth, you can learn about as much about doping wind and FOM by shooting a .22LR at 100yds as a CF rifle at 600. Even better, take a .22 out to 200yds. It's like a CF at 1000. And talk about cheap ammo .... OK, maybe not AS cheap anymore

 

[C_R_Slacker]

I'm not adding anything new to this, just affirming what others have said. If you're serious about getting into long range shooting, start with a bolt action rifle. I tried starting with an ar15 and looking back, I wish I had started with a bolt action. I still have a precision ar, but I have more realistic expectations for it now that I have a tikka ctr in 260 rem.

 

[TheOE800]

Having built an SDM type rifle, I can tell you once you get past 600 yards things become very difficult. Possible? Certainly. Just not the best platform or cartridge to accomplish "long range" though perfectly capable of "medium range" distances. You need to be realistic with your requirements - as others have said, what you've compiled is essentially non-existent, especially with the budget constraints given. You will spend half your budget or more on a good barrel and your optics budget isn't going to give you something truly usable at 1000yd distance.

 

[JoeBUtah]

My first build was with 600 yards in mind. I've got a .308 bolt gun that I take to 1000. As others have said, it's possible but you'll go through a bunch of ammo and your spotter better have a good piece of glass and a sharp eye to call your hits. Even at 400, I know I've hit my steel only because I don't see dust next to or behind the target; you get a bit kicking up in front of it in a linear pattern side to side from the bullet splatter. A 75 grain bullet loses everytime against a hunk of AR500 steel 400 + yards away.

But all that being said, build a rifle you can afford, enjoy building it (it's really fun!) and go see what it will do. Again as others have mentioned, Barrrel, Trigger, Glass....

 

[jmar]

Thanks for the comments, I think I'll go with a .308 R700 to learn with, then get the AR later down the road.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The 22 Nosler is about as much of a 22 caliber chambering that you will be able to stuff into an AR platform. It' not cheap to shoot or reload, it's still very new, and not a lot is known about barrel life or working with the heavier/longer bullets. It's about as much chance as you're going to get to build a longer range rifle on a service rifle compatible lower. I honestly can't recommend it to a non-handloader for really extended distances (based on limited available data), but it's out there for your consideration.

I might consider it in an additional Upper that would see very limited use, mostly limited to extreme distances.

I stress the "service rifle compatible lower" factor. I have one (service rifle compatible) lower and three Uppers. The Lower is the Stag Model 6, with its Upper. Then, there.are the 16" generic lightweight Upper that I built, and a 16" Upper with a very heavy barrel, the CMMG Bull WASP Upper. While I'm sure that they could all be pretty accurate at 600yd, the 16" ones have the least (probably woeful) chance of reaching 1000yd supersonic. Supersonic, that's what underlies all of the naysay about .223 and 1000yd. I would consider 1100fps as a bare minimum supersonic value for the bullet to be traveling at 1000yd, and competitive shooters are really looking for something a lot more like 1300fps as a sure lock on a decent at-target velocity.

As bullets decelerate down toward subsonic, they pass through a velocity band called 'transsonic', short explanation, the sonic shock wave transfers from the tail of the bullet toward the front, and this transfer magnifies the effects of any and all rotational instabilities a bullet may have. This results in accentuated instability and a tendency for the bullet to deviate from its stable path. Or..., (simply put) it gets inaccurate once it goes transsonic. This is the bane of the .223 at 1000yd.

The .223 is surely a wonder caliber, but it's gonna need a serious case of 'roid rage to do 1300fps with any bullet at 1000yd. It's called the Mouse Gun for a reason, and that mouse is not Mighty Mouse.

With the right bullet and the right barrel, it can be done, but it's marginal, and the .223 is pretty far from being the ideal chambering to make that bullet and barrel optimal (or even reliable) for distances well beyond 600yd.

I won't shoot 1000yd with anything less potent than a .260. A .308 is OK, but not my first choice, as even it is maybe marginal for the distance. I sold all my 308's back around 2002, and only returned to it within the past year, and that only because I now live in the high desert, and the thinner atmosphere up here above 4000ft allows bullets to retain more velocity at extended distances, making the .308 better suited to LR shooting around here.

A man's got to know his limitations, to quote Dirty Harry. There are just too many limitations inherent in the .223 chambering to make it a high priority for new shooter to train with at 1000yd.

Greg

PS, Our posts crossed. I have had a lot better luck with Savage rifles as accuracy shooters. The Savage 11VT .308 would probably be a much better rifle for what you're planning to do, as depicted in detail in my posts above. Dollar for dollar, it's a better buy.

 

[JoeBUtah]

Greg Langelius * brings a wealth of wisdom here. My first 'precision, long range rifle' was a MilSPec 5R 700 in .308. Great gun to learn on. If I had to do it over, one of the 6.5s, including the .260 would have been my choice. I'm happy (and a bit lucky) to hit 1000yds with that gun. But when it gets rebarreled....

eta: LIke Greg, I live in a desert climate and shoot typically at or above 4,000'. As he suggests, I'd bet geography adds to the potency of my .308 at distance.

 

[Kadams1563]

I would get one of the cheaper hunting rifles in 6.5 creedmoor. The ammo is as cheap or cheaper then match .308 and it has less recoil.

I would really want to do a budget build on a Ruger American predator. $400

Pick up a Athlon Argos BTR $300

New stock once you start pushing out there to 1k. $200

That rifle would get you way past 1k and you would only have a little more invested then your .223 build.


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[Sendit6.5]

Thanks for the comments, I think I'll go with a .308 R700 to learn with, then get the AR later down the road.

Great decision.

I would strongly suggest looking at a 6.5mm caliber instead of .308. The lighter recoil will aid you in the learning process - it's just more comfortable to shoot which means you'll shoot more. You will not find nearly as many people shooting LR with a .308 as you will shooting a 6.5mm variant.

I, like many people, prefer Tikka or Savage rifles; over R700's. Unless you plan on doing a bunch of upgrades right out of the box. However, if you're dead set on a R700 they are now making a number of models in 6.5Creedmoor and that's a great LR caliber.


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