Night Vision Need advise on new thermal purchase

[Richard Walter]

All,
This will be my first thermal purchase. Price range 5-6k
Weapons for use AR carbine with ACOG. And 6.5 CM AR10.
Intended uses hog / general hunting over 300+ yards
Seeking the best scope, even used, in that range/ class.
I have read the W1000 has good reviews however I am leaning toward a clip on. Don’t care about recording with it. I am retiring this year and would like something that will last.

 

[Hogrider2000]

if you are going to use it with an ACOG then you must be looking at clip ons, There are many threads here on that subject. the W1000 is good but VERY bulky and heavy and there are much better units out there at this time. Your 5/6K budget allows you quite a bit of flexibility. I could go into this in detail but it has already been covered here, in many threads in this section. Take your time and try to get the opportunity to look thru various models.. Pulsar, Armasight and Trijicon all offer good vhoices, I have owned all of them and each has its own advantage and disadvantage,

Determine your specific needs and go from there.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

You won't find a thermal clip on that's worth a damn for $6K and based on your uses that's what you need. L3 LWTS or FLIR T70 is your huckleberry but retail is twice your budget. I have a nice LWTS for sale that would save you a few bucks but it's still quite a bit north of $6K.

 

[wigwamitus]

redneckbeamer is correct, that the under $10k MSRP commercial clipons do not compare to the over $10k MSRP military clipons.

After starting with an Armasight thermal clipon ... I quickly realized its limitations and switched to dedicated thermal scopes for hunting. And I recommend that approach for the vast majority of night hunters. Put that magnification on the front of your scope to gain better image for the dollars instead of onthe backend where every 2x of magnification costs your 75% of your pixels.

So for $6k you are below the trijicon line and above the pulsar line for dedicated scopes. So you can go for a trail 50mm 384 and get 3.1x on the front or add more budget and go for a trijicon.
The trijicons have hunting reticles, not ballistic reticles, so the critter is the reticle with the trijicons. So like with my 5.56(10.3) with 62gr TSX for hogs, I hold up 6 inches at 200 and 12 inches at 250 and 20 inches at 300 and that is about it. With a different cartridge you can probably get out to 400yds.

The pulsars have some ballistic reticles, so more support for holding using a reticle in the scope.

...

If you really want a clipon, the best one under $10k (MSRP) is the SNIPE, but you will have to adjust it (it has adjustments) for boresight. Apparently Trijicon /IRD do not have a collimating table

The SNIPE says 4x is supported, but because of the good OASYS core image you can squeeze up to 6x for sure and I squeezed 8x myself, though it was getting fuzzy at that point.

If you want to shoot 400yds or over with a thermal clipon ... that will require some big bucks ... and you probably need to wait on th LWTS-LR ... those might be in the $15,000 to $20,000 price range.

 

[Richard Walter]

Thank you Sirs! Perhaps I simply should sell my ACOG, switch to full time IR and step up to the Trijicon line, certainly a trusted brand. Of that maker which model would you recommend? If it is a

 

[Richard Walter]

Good quality image, day or nighttime it won’t matter. I am flexable in this currently seeking the best outcome. Thank you for the fast and excellent advise

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If you go the dedicated sight route it will be best left on one rifle, but ditching the ACOG and running one of the Trijicons would be a good move.

I'd do with the MK3 35mm. The 60mm will give you a little more range because of the zoom but as wigwamitus pointed out the reticle is the limiting factory in shooting distance with them so IMO the increased zoom and range doesn't really gain you anything and you lose FOV closer in.

If you call Euro Optic and talk to Jason he can probably get you into a MK3 35mm for not too much more than you budget. Selling your ACOG should certainly cover any difference. They also have a show demo MK3 60mm price under the retail price of a 35mm if you'd rather go that route.

 

[Richard Walter]

If you go the dedicated sight route it will be best left on one rifle, but ditching the ACOG and running one of the Trijicons would be a good move.

I'd do with the MK3 35mm. The 60mm will give you a little more range because of the zoom but as wigwamitus pointed out the reticle is the limiting factory in shooting distance with them so IMO the increased zoom and range doesn't really gain you anything and you lose FOV closer in.

If you call Euro Optic and talk to Jason he can probably get you into a MK3 35mm for not too much more than you budget. Selling your ACOG should certainly cover any difference. They also have a show demo MK3 60mm price under the retail price of a 35mm if you'd rather go that route.

That sounds like a great idea. I don’t know

If you go the dedicated sight route it will be best left on one rifle, but ditching the ACOG and running one of the Trijicons would be a good move.

I'd do with the MK3 35mm. The 60mm will give you a little more range because of the zoom but as wigwamitus pointed out the reticle is the limiting factory in shooting distance with them so IMO the increased zoom and range doesn't really gain you anything and you lose FOV closer in.

If you call Euro Optic and talk to Jason he can probably get you into a MK3 35mm for not too much more than you budget. Selling your ACOG should certainly cover any difference. They also have a show demo MK3 60mm price under the retail price of a 35mm if you'd rather go that route.

That’s a great bit of advice. If ok I will say I was referred by this site. I will call tomorrow. It’s a purchase I don’t think I will ever be sorry about.

 

[wigwamitus]

I wouldn't sell the ACOG .. I'd buy another rifle !!!

As to the 60mm yes I'd rate the shooting distance for the 35mm and the 60mm about the same ... as the reticle is a limiting factor ... but shot placement is enhanced by magnification.

Also, spotting distance is different that shooting distance. I might spot critters out many hundreds of yards even over 1,000 yds with the 60mm and that tells me what I want to do. Stalk in a different direction? Or abandon this area and move to another area, etc.
So spotting is different from shooting. And where the 60mm shines is spotting. If you routinely need to spot out 440, 880, 1320 yds etc. then the 60mm does a better job than the 35mm ... though I have spotted and ID'd hogs out to 1200yds with the 35mm .... the 60mm is the second best long distance thermal spotter we can buy. But if you don't need that capability, then you don't need the 60mm ... I've had both I like both. The 35mm is a "does it all" solution. The 60mm has too much magnification for inside 100yds. So when I "upgraded" my 35mm to a 60mm I had to buy the patrol to cover the close in use case as I do a lot of critter control inside 100yds.

==

The ACOG rifle will be your day rifle, the Mk3 rifle will be your night rifle ...

==

As to dealers, I am not one, so it matters not to me. But I like to talk to three dealers on the phone before I decide where to buy from for ever major purchase ... for me, selecting the dealer is the same process as selecting the widget ... but it is a separate process ... but a bake off none the less.

 

[Richard Walter]

Ha! I have a suppressed 300 black out upper where the ACOG can find a perminant home. I’ll swing this somehow. I’m very glad to have posted here because what I really wanted was just out of my comfort zone. I have been a Trijicon fan for some time and it just pays to get what you really want the first time if possible . I like the way you think. And thank you for your sound advice. There’s always room in the safe for one more.

 

[Richard Walter]

Ha! I have a suppressed 300 black out upper where the ACOG can find a perminant home. I’ll swing this somehow. I’m very glad to have posted here because what I really wanted was just out of my comfort zone. I have been a Trijicon fan for some time and it just pays to get what you really want the first time if possible . I like the way you think. And thank you for your sound advice. There’s always room in the safe for one more.

I have been able to find and purchase a Trijicon MK3 35MM for 6899 on Gunbroker. Should be here inside a week. It was the best price I could find on a brand new . Close enough to budget for best equipment . Gentlemen your advice has put me where I want to be.
Knowing little on the subject, do these scopes have a limited life span? Tubes decay? Just curious to know more.

 

[wigwamitus]

My mk3 is almost 3 years old since manufacture date. It started life as a Mk2 35mm then a year later I upgraded to mk3 35mm then a year later to mk3 60mm ... where I still am ... during the upgrades I think trijicon replaced a lot of parts ... during the last one, they might have replaced the whole dang scope as all my "dings" were gone.
I have had some bad pixels ... but the upgrades cleared all that up.
I have had about 2 dozen thermals in the past 4 years ... but sold most of them within 3 years of purchasing.
I have not owned any given thermal more than 3 years. So I cannot attest to how they age out to 10 years.
I have had a good experience with Trijicon Electro Optic customer service. And they are basically the same group they were when they were IRD.
Thermals are digital devices, not tube devices like Night Vision. But the electrical connections inside might deteriorate over time requiring some sort of maintenance or board replacement.
From a depreciation perspective, I think the Trijicons have good value retention. But I think the Pulsars do as well. I think the older Armasight values have declined significantly since the FLIR acquisition.

The Mk3 35mm is a great scope hope you enjoy it!

 

[Richard Walter]

I received my MK3 last night and powered it up also today in the bright Florida sun. I certainly won’t need anything else for my needs. I have much learning to do as it is rich with features . What an amazing image! Thanks to those who contributed to my decision!

 

[Yellowhammer]

If it looks good now wait till the fall when the air temp and the humidity aren't sky high. As you get more time in the saddle you'll figure out how to tweak the settings for the best image.