Hunting & Fishing Need Bow Advice

[ARP]

Re: Need Bow Advice

An expansion of this ....

I edited the picture a bit to show the proper placement of an arrow on a broadsided deer.  I have outlined an area in green.  I do this because many people hear about shooting them behind the shoulder.  The fact is if you shoot them very far behind the shoulder then you will miss the lungs and be into the liver.  The front leg elbow is the point where the leg bones bend towards the neck of the animal and then attach to the shoulder of the deer up near the neck area and then the shoulder blades angle upwards and back towards the rear of the animal.  This forms a triangle.  On the shoulder blade there is a "rib" of bone that is thicker than the rest of the blade.  You can actually see this rib in the picture if you look above the green line as it is white and angles upwards.  If you hit this rib then sometimes it can impede penetration or actually stop an arrow especially if you are not shooting a higher poundage, heavier arrow setup. However, if you place an arrow within this triangle shown or just above the elbow of the deer then you won't have to ever do much blood trailing and in open woods you will be able to watch the deer fall over.  They don't last even 10 seconds.

 

[ARP]

Re: Need Bow Advice

Here is another shot I took last week and this is with the hair on to show near perfect placement.  I am actually about 2 inches too far to the right on this one, but it is still quite deadly.  If you look really close you can actually see the edge of the heart through the hole the Grim Reaper broadhead made on the entry side.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need Bow Advice

Most likely, if you have bench guns and the skill to use different reticles and shoot long range then I'm pretty sure you could handle more than one pin. Don't get too crazy but three would be cool to start with. My favorites tend to be 20, 30 and 40.

I say this for <span style="font-weight: bold">more than any other reason</span> because its so cool and fun to have all those distances dialed when shooting in the yard at 3D and with friends. And starting now gives you plenty of time to figure out a thing or two for yourself before most seasons (other than turkey) start.

I will post some pics of the sight I use, it has three pins with a foot of fiber optic per pin. It started as an adjustable, single pin sight. I got good with that one pin set to 30 yards in the yard then added the two extra pin rings. I can shoot super accurate at 20,30,40 using it as a fixed sight. Then if I'm playing around in the yard I can use it as an adjustable. Using the top pin (the biggest green one) I can adjust the slide to different markers and shoot, with a pin (no hold over) accurately out to 70 yards (more if you are better than me) Only telling you about this sight because we are on a sniper forum, I'm guessing you will be better than a beginner with a 1990 Fred Bear(RIP) bow. From what you said it seems like you have respect for animals and you act like you don't just want to go out and wound them.

Be respectful when going after game, just as you mentioned, but have fun in the yard too.

Oh, I mainly hunt whitetail, been bowhunting for 9 seasons, have never killed a buck with my bow but... coming to full draw and passing up a young buck with a bow will give you just as much of a rush as killing a trophy with a gun. Does, especially mature ones (which act about like a good buck) will drive you nuts, close range shots on them are intense too

 

[Jig Stick]

Re: Need Bow Advice

See my thinking is the opposite when it comes to sights. I learned to shoot with simple iron sights first, then a simple cross hair, then mil dots, then the TMR, etc....thats why I thought I would start with a single pin first. I could always just ignore the other pins on a multipin setup, but then they would be in my sight picture all the time. I dont know...Im still researching that. But Im pretty sure Ill be getting the HHA XL 5519.

WHy a 2in diameter sight over 1 5/8? And would a fiber diameter of 0.019 be adequate for primarily hunting?

 

[ARP]

Re: Need Bow Advice

You will want a sight with a full round guard and then you will want this to be somewhat large in diameter and be on an adjustable rail. The reason for this is that you will be able to center this pin guard in your peep sight and you will want to have a peep that is sized right to allow this to happen. It is yet another mental checkpoint to accurate shooting and helps you to establish and maintain a consistent anchoring point. You will note that many of the newer pin guards will have a highly visible colored ring on the backside of the sight. this allows you to more easily get into your focus of centering the pin guard within the peep sight. Note that I say that you center the pin guard and not the pin. Always keep the pin guard centered in the peep. The pin could be in the top or bottom of the pin guard but you will still want the whole guard centered and not try centering the pin itself. I push the other pins to the bottom of the sight when I am in hunting mode. during the year one can use those pins if they like to shoot further distances. I shoot out to 150 yards myself for practice. This is not to shoot at a game animal, but just for fun. To me the whole entire goal of bowhunting is not how far I can shoot, but how close can I get to an animal to shoot. Too close is a bad deal though as is too far. I like the shots to be at least 15 yards and under 30 and set myself up accordingly.

The diameter of the pins is somewhat dependent upon the brightness of the fiber optic if this sight is of the fiber optic variety. A .019 pin is the middle of the most popular pin sizes, .010, .019 and .029, and is about perfect for hunting. Green is the color that is easiest for me to see during all hunting lights so I make sure my one pin used is a green one and not a red one. Your sight that you list above is a slider sight. This will allow you to use the single pin in the backyard at multiple distances and yet have a single pin setup for in the woods hunting. You will find that during most hunting situations, especially from the treestand, that you will not use the slider part very often. I use an Axcel Armortech myself and find it to be quite good.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need Bow Advice

I understand and I've been there, started with a really old hand me down Fred Bear bow, I shot with fingers and aluminum arrows with an old square sight box with pins that had white paint on the tips and I quickly became a good shot through every day practice. <span style="font-weight: bold">Yet</span> starting with a bow like you have it will take much less time to get good ( and if you follow some of the tips posted in this thread you will be far above average <span style="font-weight: bold">with good practice</span>) . I can only guarantee a few things(if you hunt/shoot long enough). You will miss animals, you will miss targets, you will use the wrong pin with a multiple pin sight and you will mis use a single pin sight. Live game only multiplies those kinds of problems so it probably is better to start simple if you have the gut feeling you need to. I'm only posting my personal experiences and putting ideas that I have learned out there for you to see as everyone else is. Try some of them, they do work.

To tell the truth my favorite bow setup was when I used my single pin adjustable sight on my old PSE X force (the first one) I locked the adjustable sight on the 30 yard mark and used it from 5 yards to 40 very easily. That bow was smoking fast on 30" draw and I miss it. I mainly added the extra pins I have now because my Reezen is no where near as fast.

Look at the single pin-adjustable version of the Vital gear sight. Like I said you can lock it down on 30 and use it like a fixed single pin (which is green and very bright) but if you feel like it you can have the slide set to whatever yardage from 10 to 60. I've used a lot of sights and this one is very nice.

Trying to post some cell phone pics of mine now, just so you get a better look at it. You can run this one with one pin or an adjustable and if you like you can later add pin rings like I did.

 

[ARP]

Re: Need Bow Advice

At one time I had 6 different XForce bows at the same time. I have whittled that down now to only 2 and both of those are set up identically. PSE XForce Axe 6s. One custom painted in deer skulls camo and the other custom blacked out with turkey tracks and turkey silhouettes.

I am not much of a gun nut, but I can bow nut with the best of them hahahaha

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need Bow Advice

I would have kept my X force but when I started looking at the Mathews stuff I got offered what I paid for my PSE... two years after buying it haha, couldn't pass it up. I do miss that speed/one pin setup but I do shoot the one I have now, better at distances over 50 but that is just me.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need Bow Advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARPredatorHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I am not much of a gun nut, but I can bow nut with the best of them hahahaha </div></div> Same here, this is the first thread I've ever tried to give advice on. I shoot guns, can't touch the 500+ stuff like some of these guys but I know I can shoot a bow very well.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Need Bow Advice

I chronographed my bow at about 235 fps.

Whats about the max range you guys are shooting out to?

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need Bow Advice

Looks a little rough through the cell phone. The light blurred the pins, sorry but the pins are much brighter than they look in the pic and some of the brightest I've ever seen.

When locked down and not using the slide...

The top, green pin (my 20) is a .29 diameter

The middle, red pin (my 30) is a .19

Bottom (and the smallest pin), green (my 40) is a .10

The slide ^

When using the slide I can adjust from 20 yards to 80 yards (mainly for shooting 3D in the yard/field)

Adjustable pin rings, shoot with as many as four pins or as few as one. Here I have three but the single was really nice.

Each one has fiber wrapped like a good single pin would be and very easy to micro adjust. These will never fall out of place while trying to adjust a pin (huge plus compared to most). You loosen one allen screw that locks/unlocks the pin and adjust the height with another allen screw. The screws will surface rust if you hunt in the rain and forget wipe them down haha whoops.

Glow backing behind the fiber optic wraps never hurts and comes installed on this sight.


This is one sight you should try before you die haha

Especially if you want to try a single pin adjustable. It's really bright, the pin/pins do not block the vitals or the front leg. There is no hard to read yardage tape if you use it as an adjustable.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need Bow Advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I chronographed my bow at about 235 fps.

Whats about the max range you guys are shooting out to? </div></div>My old X force was shooting 380 grains worth of: Carbon Express Maxima 350's at 31 & 1/2" of arrow, three Blazer vanes and a 100 grain tip in the neighborhood of 340fps and something crazy like 90ft lbs of energy. It would accurately shoot 4-5" groups at 50 yards with me behind it, better for some shooters and worse for some shooters. I'm no pro either but I'm good. AND like I said, I should not have sold that bow, it was like my 7mm STW...a f'n hot rod that has it's place on the wall. Only bow I ever Robin Hooded two arrows at over 40 yards with. Shot through the aluminum bull dog knock at the back of one Maxima so centered that the two carbon arrows became one. Still have that hanging in the rack of one of my bucks, pretty cool.

The buck in my pic was killed with a gun, shot him 09 season, my first buck with the STW I got four years ago. My second biggest, 8pt and he scored 139"

Wish it was with a bow, maybe one of these years it will be.

 

[ARP]

Re: Need Bow Advice

I used to shoot a lot of 3-D years and years back. I qualified to shoot the IBO Worlds several times, but just never went. I used to shoot a lot of those tournies with a young kid who has just kept right on going and has won the Worlds and Nationals and all sorts of things and is now a top pro shooter for PSE. I sure would have liked to have been young enough to have kept going in that and the martial arts, but life and the need to provide for a new family put me in the middle of a steel mill busting my ass for $$$.

To answer the question about distance of shots. Keep in mind that I hunt primarily from treestands and ground blinds. My average shot distance over all the years is right about 19 yards.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need Bow Advice

For me it was trying for 8 seasons to get paid to fish pro inshore redfish tournaments, now I ride tractors, mend fences, lots of manual labor, bloody knuckles and back pain, all in an attempt to manage over 8,000 acres of someone else's property. Now I hardy ever get to do my favorite thing since I was 5 which is fishing haha sucks... Shattered dreams huh hahahaha

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need Bow Advice

Thanks for the article JigStick, I need to keep shooting this year and this also reminded me that I have a few lock ons I need to move before I forget and try to pick up a rod and reel or a gun or my dirtbike build or the rake for the yard which is fubar... I tend to drop one for the other and end up not doing any of them to the fullest.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Need Bow Advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARPredatorHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used to shoot a lot of 3-D years and years back. I qualified to shoot the IBO Worlds several times, but just never went. I used to shoot a lot of those tournies with a young kid who has just kept right on going and has won the Worlds and Nationals and all sorts of things and is now a top pro shooter for PSE. I sure would have liked to have been young enough to have kept going in that and the martial arts, but life and the need to provide for a new family put me in the middle of a steel mill busting my ass for $$$.

To answer the question about distance of shots. Keep in mind that I hunt primarily from treestands and ground blinds. My average shot distance over all the years is right about 19 yards. </div></div>

You know I did a run in Greenwood Arkansas when I was on AC/RC duty at Fort Chaffee for the Army about 3 years ago. I liked the area!

 

[stefan73]

Re: Need Bow Advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I chronographed my bow at about 235 fps.

Whats about the max range you guys are shooting out to? </div></div>My old X force was shooting 380 grains worth of: Carbon Express Maxima 350's at 31 & 1/2" of arrow, three Blazer vanes and a 100 grain tip in the neighborhood of 340fps and something crazy like 90ft lbs of energy. It would accurately shoot 4-5" groups at 50 yards with me behind it, better for some shooters and worse for some shooters. I'm no pro either but I'm good. AND like I said, I should not have sold that bow, it was like my 7mm STW...a f'n hot rod that has it's place on the wall. Only bow I ever Robin Hooded two arrows at over 40 yards with. Shot through the aluminum bull dog knock at the back of one Maxima so centered that the two carbon arrows became one. Still have that hanging in the rack of one of my bucks, pretty cool.

The buck in my pic was killed with a gun, shot him 09 season, my first buck with the STW I got four years ago. My second biggest, 8pt and he scored 139"

Wish it was with a bow, maybe one of these years it will be. </div></div>

I'm shooting a Diamond about 60 lb draw at 30" with Maxima Carbon 350 and 100grn field points and getting that velocity. Now I did send my CED M2 back in because it was having challenges reading so that might have been an issue?

 

[ARP]

Re: Need Bow Advice

I haven't hunted Chaffee in about 5 years now, but I have taken at least one deer from each of the 23 hunting compartments on the base.

 

[ARP]

Re: Need Bow Advice

you are likely NOT shooting 235 with a 30 inch draw Diamond at 60 pounds and that arrow. Depending on which year the bow is it will be from 308 to 343 IBO. This would put you into the 270s or more with that arrow I would think

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need Bow Advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm shooting a Diamond about 60 lb draw at 30" with Maxima Carbon 350 and 100grn field points and getting that velocity. Now I did send my CED M2 back in because it was having challenges reading so that might have been an issue?</div></div> I'm sorry, forgot to mention that my X force maxed out at just over 74 lbs draw to get that speed. ARPredator knows more about how to tune, work on and shoot a bow than I do but I definitely would agree that your bow should be considerably faster than the numbers you are getting with your Diamond on a 60 lb draw weight and 30" draw, unless its one of the first bows they came out with and that still doesn't sound right.

Also, a lot of getting the right speed out of the chrono is how you shoot through it even if it is working properly. In most cases a good bow technician/shooter and can also get higher numbers out of a chronograph than I can. I guess cause thats what they do all day.

 

[ARP]

Re: Need Bow Advice

As an example, last year I deer hunted with a PSE AXE 6 set at 61 pounds and a 30 inch draw and shooting nearly the exact same arrow ( Maxima 350 at 29 inches long with fusion vanes and wraps with 100 grain heads ). With my full hunting setup I was shooting about 305 fps with this bow that IBOs in the 340 range. So even if you have a slightly older Diamond, I think you would still be at least into the 270s with the bow if it is tuned even half well. I guess we also don't know which model you have and that would play a large part.

I traded an oehler chrono for a CED M2 with infrared screens for shooting arrows through and I could hardly get the damn thing to even read an arrow. Sux.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Need Bow Advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARPredatorHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As an example, last year I deer hunted with a PSE AXE 6 set at 61 pounds and a 30 inch draw and shooting nearly the exact same arrow ( Maxima 350 at 29 inches long with fusion vanes and wraps with 100 grain heads ). With my full hunting setup I was shooting about 305 fps with this bow that IBOs in the 340 range. So even if you have a slightly older Diamond, I think you would still be at least into the 270s with the bow if it is tuned even half well. I guess we also don't know which model you have and that would play a large part.

I traded an oehler chrono for a CED M2 with infrared screens for shooting arrows through and I could hardly get the damn thing to even read an arrow. Sux. </div></div>

I was having the same problem with my CED M2 which is what I sent back thinking there must be something wrong with it.

I'm shooting a Diamond FLX Black Ice that I bought about 3 months ago. So it is probably a problem with the CED. I called them yesterday and was informed that everything was good to go so far with my CED and that they are going to field test it to make sure. We'll see if I can get it to work when it arrives.

 

[Jig Stick]

Re: Need Bow Advice

is 6gr per lb draw weight a rule that shouldnt be broken when making arrows? I wanted to use Easton ACC Hunter Pro 390 shafts, 100gr heads, blazer fletching. When I do my math with my 70lb bow I can get it to right about 418gr, with 420 being my maximum if I stick to 6gr/lb.

But my pro shop is recommending ACC Hunter Pro 440 shafts, which end up weighing about 380gr. I dont want to fuck up my new bow, arrows, or myself shooting something lighter than what is considered safe.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Need Bow Advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is 6gr per lb draw weight a rule that shouldnt be broken when making arrows? I wanted to use Easton ACC Hunter Pro 390 shafts, 100gr heads, blazer fletching. When I do my math with my 70lb bow I can get it to right about 418gr, with 420 being my maximum if I stick to 6gr/lb.

But my pro shop is recommending ACC Hunter Pro 440 shafts, which end up weighing about 380gr. I dont want to fuck up my new bow, arrows, or myself shooting something lighter than what is considered safe. </div></div>

I haven't been in the scene for a while, but last I checked 5gr/lb was the considered the legal miniumum for 3D competitions. Not necessarily "safe" minimum per say. Having said that, I wouldn't necessarily go below 5gr/lb for any reason. I don't see any reason to try and up the velocity any with the bow technology that's out today.

total arrow weight of 380gr at 70lbs will get you right around 5.4gr/lb

Personally I prefer a slightly heavier arrow for hunting, but it's been done at 5gr/lb before and the animals still went down.

You could cut the shaft a little shorter and use a 125gr head. So long as the spine is correct.

A little heavier or lighter isn't going to hurt anything so long as the spine is correct for your draw weight, cam style, and drawlength.

Unless your looking for absolute blazing speed, anything above 5gr/lb will do fine.

If you start slinging arrows at moose at 60 yards, you might want something a little heavier

You never know, once you get bit by the archery bug it goes down hill really fast....really fast

 

[ARP]

Re: Need Bow Advice

some of the competitions have a speed rule rather than an arrow weight rule. The speed rule puts people on a more even keel in terms of being the shooter and not just cheating the distance with a fast bow.

Here is something that you will find to hold true in terms of the typical hunting distance shots taken from treestands and ground blinds. You can shoot a 400 grain arrow and a 500 grain arrow at 20 yards or so and the difference will be so small as to not be able to readily determine the difference from your normal standard deviation of shot strings. It is not until one gets further out that you can start to notice the additional droppage of the heavier arrow.

A heavier arrow will make your bow quieter and it will hit harder. Speed helps to minimize errors with yardage guessing and with deer moving at the sound and movement of the shot and speed produces a pretty high kinetic energy since the speed part gets squared in the equation for Ke.

Kinetic energy doesn't really play any part in the arrow going through the animal in terms of penetration. This is the job of momentum. Momentum plays a part in that an object in motion tends to stay in motion. Momentum is force x acceleration so a heavier arrow moving fairly quick is awesome in terms of penetration. From the same bow the heavier arrow will have the higher momentum and kinetic energy up to a certain point where the faster arrow has more kinetic energy. This is usually around the 600 grain mark for arrows.

With the modern compound bow an arrow weighing around the 400 + grain region pushed by a 60 pound or better bow will make it through every well hit deer around. Most carbon arrows in the 29 inch length and using vanes with a 100 grain head will weigh between 380 and 410 grains