Need help cleaning up a possible mess

[Nocalphoenix]

Ok guys possible major screw up and Im pretty sure I already know the answer.

I was loading .270ammo, 110TTSX over 59gr of H4350 and I began switching over my Dillon press to set up for .308. Out of the blue I realized the 8lb keg of varget (to be used for the .308)was sitting on the bench and not the 8lb keg of H4350. My powder hopper is still full so I know I did not dump H4350 into my varget but all of a sudden there is a creeping element of doubt that I somehow used varget instead of H4350 for my .270 loads, maybe not all of them but might have topped off the powder dispenser with it. They are both 8lb kegs about 1/2 full so I cannot tell from that. I pulled a couple bullets and the powders appear to be identical, same fricken color and same approximate kernal size.

I have 200 rounds loaded and do not look forward to pulling them all and tossing the powder. Im getting ready to pack up my loading supplies to long term storage for a move and was trying to getting enough of everything loaded to last a few years.

I know the H4350 load will chrono right at 3375fps and could easily confirm what powder was what over the chrono. I could not find a varget load for 110gr but Im sure 59gr would be way up there in pressure. Can anyone run it on quickload to see how bad it would be? Winchester cases, 59gr of Varget, Barnes 110TTSX loaded to 3.21"oal.

Thanks guys.

 

[mattmcg]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Here are the variables I used in Quickload for you. If I need to make changes, just list what you need. I've included results below.

.270 Win (SAAMI)
.277, Barnes, TTSX, BT, 110gr
Varget 59.0gr
OAL 3.210"

With everything else at default, I'm showing 93,300 max pressure and a SAAMI max of 65,000. Looks like it will be a tad hot.... Wouldn't risk it at those levels.

If you need any modifications to the data, feel free to reply.

 

[Short Round]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

When in doubt, PULL THEM!

It just isn't worth an eye and a rifle with those numbers.

Sorry for your trouble.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Pull them and dump the powder. A unidentified powder is useless. Maybe a costly experience, but less costly than the other possible outcomes.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pull them and dump the powder. A unidentified powder is useless. Maybe a costly experience, but less costly than the other possible outcomes. </div></div>

Exactly! I always keep 1 powder out at a time, so I don't mix. It's easy to do. Varget and H4350 look very similar (green extruded powder), so it would be hard to tell them apart. If it's Varget, you will be WAY over max, and would cause damage to the rifle and/or yourself or others. If you could 100% know for sure, you could shoot them. Anything less than 100% I'd pull the bullet.

 

[fusiachi]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Pull 'em. Let this be a lesson learned the (relatively) easy way.

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Yeah thats pretty much what I figured guys. The thing that kills me is that Im 99% sure everything is good, just that little voice of doubt in my head. Usually the h3450 is stored in the back with the other kegs but the varget is an old canister that is taller and it does not fit on the shelf like the others so it is in the front turned sideways. I could have easily moved onto the bench to get to the H4350 and stopped for some reason. Many I do not look forward to it but I gotta pull them all.

How about using the same bullets again? This is just a Tikka T-3 but its an excellent shooter, about 3/4moa at 200. Will the slugs show a noticeable difference in accuracy? I only have one of the hammer type pullers and even with a piece of foam in it there is still a little deformation of the tips. At a buck a bullet they are going to get used for something....

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Another reason I should switch to TAC for the .308. Life was so much simpler when I all I had was a .308 and a .35 Whelen and used Varget for everything.

 

[mattmcg]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Norcal Phoenix,

I would suggest investing in a press mounted bullet puller since you have more than a couple to deconstruct. That will make the bulk process easier and not deform the tip as badly (will also save your wrist some trauma).

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hazardus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Varget 59.0gr I'm showing 93,300 max pressure and a SAAMI max of 65,000. </div></div>

Thats gonna leave a serious mark if you squeeze the trigger.

 

[Rookie]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

The pulled bullets will be fine. I would get a press-mounted puller. It will be much faster, and less messy. Kenetic is fine for a round or two but times 200, the puller would be worth the investment.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Norcal Phoenix</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing that kills me is that Im 99% sure everything is good, just that little voice of doubt in my head. </div></div>

Imagine explaining to you loved ones that you didn't listen to that voice, while they are visiting you in the hospital while you recuperate with half a face. It'd semm pretty silly eh?

Pull 'em.

 

[desertHK]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

You can always buy more powder if needed, but loosing an eye, a thumb, or a hand is not acceptable. Hard lesson to learn but at least you can walk away.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

A slight hijack... but in the same vein: I was loading some .308 rounds yesterday using my new RCBS chargemaster dispenser. In a moment of dyslexia, I typed in 34.2 instead of 43.2 of RL-15. I loaded about 6-9 before I realized what I had done.

Obviously they would have been underpowered - but would there have been any problem shooting them? I ended up just saying F*^k it and pulled the bullets and started over but wondered if a 10 grn undercharge would have any chance of getting stuck in the barrel.

 

[Rookie]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

An under charge can be very dangerous because the case does not expand to fill the chamber, allowing gas to blow backward into the action and the shooters face. bad juju

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Reaper;

Unlikely, but 'conventional wisdom' dictates that one shouldn't use loads below the published minimums.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Thanks, I'm glad I realized my FU before I got too far. As one of the previous posters said, if you're not 100% sure, it goes back in the pile to be pulled.....

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Couldn't one light a small amount of each of the known powders on an open surface watching for the burn rate, smell, and size of flame. Then pull a bullet or two and light the powder in those to figure out which powder is actually in there???

Just a thought. Maybe a stupid one but it may work.

 

[mattmcg]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

I've tried burning grains of powder to see if there was any difference between them visually. Unfortunately there is no way with the eye to get an accurate identification based on any difference in their burn characteristics.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

I'm thinking out load here Norcal, but you could pull several bullets and load the unknown powder (Varget or H4350) with about a 47 to 48 grain charge with the 110 bullet. This charge is just under book max for a 110 grain bullet with Varget, and just under minimum charge for H4350 in the 270 Win. If you chronoed the loads, you could see from the velocity if it was Varget or H4350. If the powder was truley H4350, you would get a much slower speed (around 3000), and Varget would be around 3250+. Again, I'm thinking out load here, so take this for what it's worth. But you may be able to reverse engineer it. Just a thought!!

 

[jasonk]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

If you were loading with a thrower which uses volume, could you pull bullets and weigh the charge, not sure how different the 4350 and Varget would weigh using the same thrower setting.

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

Thanks again guys. I looked at it from every angle. The volume of the load for both powders was the same weight and the burning powder appeared identical in color and intensity.

Already got 50 pulled. Oh well, mistakes happen but the good point was my overall safety measures worked, ie the only powder on the bench is the one in the cannister, in event of a mix up it all gets pulled. At least I did not dump the last 1/4 pound of H4350 into a fairly fresh keg of Varget, that would have really sucked to have watch a $150 roman candle.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Need help cleaning up a possible mess

$20.00 clams worth of powder and some extra time to cement the lesson learned. Stilll pretty cheap when compared to what might have been!

Glad you didn't find out the hard way!