Need help diagnosing poor groups

[Feurhand]

I'm doing load development for my new .223 Vanguard (VA38223RR4T) Accuguard w/ #3 barrel. I'm not getting good results and need help diagnosing the problem(s). These are 5 shot groups at 100 yards, fired round-robin with 5 minutes between strings. The rifle was on front and rear bags, shooting prone. It's in the factory tupperware stock which I think is part of the issue, and I did pillar bed the stock and free-float the barrel before shooting these groups. I made sure all scope, base, and action screws were correctly torqued to their factory specs. Group 3 is technically sub-moa, but why the vertical stringing? The sighter/fouler group at upper left is my standard 55gr AR-15 load of 23gr N133 with the same brass and primer.

 

[Howland]

Of the other groups, two show more horizontal dispersion than vertical, one the others is about even and the last might be slightly more vertical than horizontal.

I had an OCW that was hard to decipher. I ended up coming to the unmistakable conclusion that the variability induced by the shooter was obscuring the variability induced by minor load changes and the limitations of the rifle. Not enough signal, too much noise.

 

[VargmatII]

When you shot it, did you load the rifle with all 5 shots for each string in order and shot each round of round-robin without breaking position?
(Does that meaning make sense?)

I seldom shoot my ladders round-robin style, and if I did I would be very sure to stay in position and have everything I needed right there.
I would suggest that you shoot the same ladder again, each step/target at the time, not round-robin style. Easier to have a break between each string that way and any positional shift in each group would be held to a minimum. At least in my mind.

 

[Feurhand]

I'm inclined toward shooter error, now that I go over the procedure in my head. I know I'm not a great shooter, but feel I understand the fundamentals and have shot consistently better groups other different rifles.
I loaded all rounds singly, breaking my position between shots. At the time I didn't think it would matter since each shot was a different target, but when I did my AR load development, I loaded 5 rounds in a magazine and maintained position between shots. I'll try again, this time loading 5 rounds into the mag and shooting each load at once.
Thanks for the help!

 

[Lowlight]

All shooter,

pushing everything right, video yourself shooting, I can probably tell you 10 things without looking you are doing wrong but none of it matters because you don't know what you already don't know so telling you won't fix it.


If you post a video of yourself we can break it down systematically for you, but you are doing everything wrong except the wrong things you re doing right

 

[Howland]

@Feurhand, take @lowlight up on this offer! There's a ton of knowledge and experience here.

 

[Feurhand]

Wow, that'd be great. I need to figure out how to get my phone in position to record, but I'll look into that. I'm guessing you need a 3/4 angle of rifle and shooter from the right side?

 

[Holliday]

All shooter,

pushing everything right, video yourself shooting, I can probably tell you 10 things without looking you are doing wrong but none of it matters because you don't know what you already don't know so telling you won't fix it.


If you post a video of yourself we can break it down systematically for you, but you are doing everything wrong except the wrong things you re doing right

Wow great offer!

 

[Feurhand]

@lowlight I was able to get out today and shoot two groups for your review. I already noticed a couple things I need to improve, will add them below with spoilers so I don't influence anyone. Looking forward to learning how much I don't know.

Spoiler

I need to step through my position and double-check everything before starting the shot. Are my heels down? Is my NPA correct? Is the rifle in my shoulder pocket? Are my hands where they need to be, and doing what they need to be doing? Stuff like that. I also saw I developed a flinch in the second string, so I should no doubt be dry-firing between groups. It was really bright though, and I was looking into the sun.

Top group is "first_string" and bottom group is "second_string". Both about 1.5"@ 100yd, using 23gr load from first post.

 

[Lowlight]

What are the specs on that rifle and ammo combination again?

You definitely have some lateral stability issues because you are shooting off the bag. You look canted to me but hard to say just based on the angle, but you have a lot of left and right adjustments happening between shots.

Multi presses going on too, you are jerking the trigger a few times in the first, crushing other times. Looks like back and towards the camera press.

Overall I would not say, you should NOT be shooting groups that bad, so maybe there is a mismatch with the ammo going on here too, but for sure the bouncing you are doing left and right is not putting you in the same location and from my angle, you look canted away from the camera. I get you are shooting out of a truck bed, but the bag is doing you no favors here.

The multi groups you shoot are because of the movement, you are fidgeting back and forth to straighten the rifle because nothing is holding it. When you see, two round touching, one round off, maybe another two or so touching you are moving between shots and resetting the location of the rifle. In this case, you are not returning to the same place for the next shot so the whole setup is moving enough to trend you to the side.

The stringing I see I want to say is part of that cant I am noticing. In my mind it almost looks like your scope is crooked in the rings when I try to compare the two, I would have to see directly behind you for sure.

 

[ShtrRdy]

On the original targets you noted a 55 gr FMJ bullet. What brand and model bullet is it?

 

[Feurhand]

What are the specs on that rifle and ammo combination again?

You definitely have some lateral stability issues because you are shooting off the bag. You look canted to me but hard to say just based on the angle, but you have a lot of left and right adjustments happening between shots.

Multi presses going on too, you are jerking the trigger a few times in the first, crushing other times. Looks like back and towards the camera press.

Overall I would not say, you should NOT be shooting groups that bad, so maybe there is a mismatch with the ammo going on here too, but for sure the bouncing you are doing left and right is not putting you in the same location and from my angle, you look canted away from the camera. I get you are shooting out of a truck bed, but the bag is doing you no favors here.

The multi groups you shoot are because of the movement, you are fidgeting back and forth to straighten the rifle because nothing is holding it. When you see, two round touching, one round off, maybe another two or so touching you are moving between shots and resetting the location of the rifle. In this case, you are not returning to the same place for the next shot so the whole setup is moving enough to trend you to the side.

The stringing I see I want to say is part of that cant I am noticing. In my mind it almost looks like your scope is crooked in the rings when I try to compare the two, I would have to see directly behind you for sure.

Thanks for taking a look. I'll work on my lateral stability and trigger press for sure. Bags are what I have at the moment, so just trying to make the most of it.

The front passenger corner of the truck is a few inches higher due to terrain, but that's where I have to be to get a 100 yard shot. I could get it flatter if I went for a 105 or 95 yard target, but I was trying to be precise. That's probably the reason for some of the cant.

The rifle is a Weatherby Vanguard Accuguard, .223 Rem, 1:9 twist 24" heavy fluted barrel. My initial groups with the rifle were about the same, so I free floated the barrel and pillar bedded the stock, which doesn't seem to have made a difference. I adjusted the stock trigger down to 2.75lbs which seems to be the lower limit (unless I modify/replace springs)

Ammo is reloaded: 55gr FMJ over 23gr N133, Rem 7 1/2 primer, and Armscor brass. I've only been reloading for about 18 months so still new at that too. I know my neck tension is uneven but don't have an expander mandrel yet. One thing I did notice was carbon on the neck and shoulder of the brass, especially the lower charges. I don't get that in my AR even with the powder-puff loads.

EDIT: added quote

 

[Feurhand]

On the original targets you noted a 55 gr FMJ bullet. What brand and model bullet is it?

Cheap bulk I got from RMR bullets late last year, don't know anything else about them. I have some 62gr fmj and some 75gr match bullets I haven't tried yet, not sure the Vanguard will stabilize the latter but I'll try. I got into reloading for my AR so I'm not really set up for precision handloads.

 

[FCS]

68 Hornady BTHP or 65 SGK / 69 SMK would be a better choice for the bolt gun.
75 BTHP, 9 twist will most probably stabilize.
75 Amax / ELD-M, 75 VLD the 9 twist will most probably NOT stabilize the bullet.

What powders with slower burn rate do you have available for loading heavier bullets.

55 & 62 FMJs, I’d leave those for AR.

Plastic stock isn’t helping and most likely hurting you.
Boyd’s laminate stock isn’t all that expensive and is a much better stock than the factory Tupperware stock.
Scorehigh Gunsmithing sells a pillar & epoxy bedding kit for the Weatherby.

What We Manufacture | Score High Gunsmithing

We Manufacture a variety of products use to accurize rifles including Probed 2000 Stock Bedding Epoxy and Pillar Bedding Kits for DIY Gunsmithing.

scorehi.com

 

[Holliday]

Plastic stock isn’t helping and most likely hurting you.
Boyd’s laminate stock isn’t all that expensive and is a much better stock than the factory Tupperware stock.
Scorehigh Gunsmithing sells a pillar & epoxy bedding kit for the Weatherby.

What We Manufacture | Score High Gunsmithing

We Manufacture a variety of products use to accurize rifles including Probed 2000 Stock Bedding Epoxy and Pillar Bedding Kits for DIY Gunsmithing.

scorehi.com

The Score High kit is phenomenal and so it the support. He used to drill the pillars free if you bought his kit. He did mine. Not sure if he still does that but it is worth the shipping cost.

 

[Feurhand]

68 Hornady BTHP or 65 SGK / 69 SMK would be a better choice for the bolt gun.
75 BTHP, 9 twist will most probably stabilize.
75 Amax / ELD-M, 75 VLD the 9 twist will most probably NOT stabilize the bullet.

What powders with slower burn rate do you have available for loading heavier bullets.

55 & 62 FMJs, I’d leave those for AR.

Plastic stock isn’t helping and most likely hurting you.
Boyd’s laminate stock isn’t all that expensive and is a much better stock than the factory Tupperware stock.
Scorehigh Gunsmithing sells a pillar & epoxy bedding kit for the Weatherby.

What We Manufacture | Score High Gunsmithing

We Manufacture a variety of products use to accurize rifles including Probed 2000 Stock Bedding Epoxy and Pillar Bedding Kits for DIY Gunsmithing.

scorehi.com

I'll need to pick up some 68/69gr options. At the moment I don't have any slower powders, been looking but I seem to be always a few hours late to the party. I'm also down to my last 500 primers.

I ordered a B&C M40 stock and am praying I'm not throwing good money after bad.

The Score High kit is phenomenal and so it the support. He used to drill the pillars free if you bought his kit. He did mine. Not sure if he still does that but it is worth the shipping cost.

Bedding is definitely in the future if a new stock improves my results. I'll try some factory ammo too, see if I can't make anything happen. I should have brought my CZ 455 and shot a group with that today also, just as a sanity check.

 

[FCS]

Ammunition from McCourt Munitions, LLC

223 bolt gun shooters, running DBM or a hinged floor plate? Normally I run a longer OAL, maximize performance / accuracy, puts cannelure away from case mouth. I do have a nice 73 Berger Match BT load for 9 twist Rem 700 (developed in 5R, 20”), also shoots well in 70 HBV w/9 twist bbl. What...

www.snipershide.com

Post 59 might be of interest to you.

 

[Smittiac]

Trick for trigger control I learned in the military, balance a dime on the end of the barrel and try to keep it from falling. Really works because if you aren't smooth it will fall 100%.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Cheap bullets have a tendency to scatter shots. You really need to be using good quality bullets if you want to shoot smaller groups.

 

[Feurhand]

Ammunition from McCourt Munitions, LLC

223 bolt gun shooters, running DBM or a hinged floor plate? Normally I run a longer OAL, maximize performance / accuracy, puts cannelure away from case mouth. I do have a nice 73 Berger Match BT load for 9 twist Rem 700 (developed in 5R, 20”), also shoots well in 70 HBV w/9 twist bbl. What...

www.snipershide.com

Post 59 might be of interest to you.

100%. Email sent.

Trick for trigger control I learned in the military, balance a dime on the end of the barrel and try to keep it from falling. Really works because if you aren't smooth it will fall 100%.

Will give that a try. Now that the weather is turning, I'll have a lot more time for this kind of indoor practice.

Cheap bullets have a tendency to scatter shots. You really need to be using good quality bullets if you want to shoot smaller groups.

Yeah, I've been disappointed with these bullets in my AR also, but I consider 2 MOA fine for that application. My want-to-buy list of components is growing longer.

 

[Holliday]

Bedding is definitely in the future if a new stock improves my results. I'll try some factory ammo too, see if I can't make anything happen. I should have brought my CZ 455 and shot a group with that today also, just as a sanity check.

If you use the Score High kit feel free to DM me with any questions. I used it on a wood laminate Rem 700 stock (long since sold) and it was awesome.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’m with Frank. There’s things you could definitely improve. But those groups don’t match your shooting in video.

 

[theLBC]

i'm nobody, but i would say too much thumb and it isn't even in the same position for each shot.
the thumb on my trigger hand is passive, even when i shoot a double-action pistol.
my dad taught me to lay my thumb along the stock, and my current rifle has a thumb rest.

 

[Smittiac]

Silly question but serious, is everything tight on the rifle? like from the action screws to the scope rail/mounts. Just a tad loose and it could give you a different sight picture every single time.

EDIT: You said you checked torque but did you use any thread locker, I use clear nail polish. Vibrations loosen stuff really easy.

 

[theLBC]

i suppose i wouldn't shoot from a bed of a truck either, or at least not for groups.

 

[Feurhand]

i'm nobody, but i would say too much thumb and it isn't even in the same position for each shot.

I'm reviewing the shooting tips on this site, will definitely pay more attention to my trigger hand and thumb in particular. It's a bit of transition since I was taught to always put my thumb over the stock. Unlearning habits is harder than starting them.

Silly question but serious, is everything tight on the rifle? like from the action screws to the scope rail/mounts. Just a tad loose and it could give you a different sight picture every single time.

EDIT: You said you checked torque but did you use any thread locker, I use clear nail polish. Vibrations loosen stuff really easy.

Threadlocker is on the rail screws and ring cap screws. The ring base screws aren't loctited so I should probably do that. I don't use threadlocker on the action screws either, but maybe I should start?

i suppose i wouldn't shoot from a bed of a truck either, or at least not for groups.

Due to the terrain, I need to be elevated to see the target. There are other places I can shoot but this spot is 5 minutes from home and I don't need to carry all my gear in. There's a place I can shoot to 700yds but setting up takes at least an hour with all the walking.

 

[Marine52]

Agree with ShtrRdy and Dthomas3523. groups don’t reflect your videos. don’t use cheap bullets and expect match-level results. You said you are not set up for precision reloading so that may be key. I suggest you get one box of match Hornady or federal ammo so you can rule out your handloads as the issue. have you shot sub-MOA groups with your method using other rifles?

 

[Feurhand]

Agree with ShtrRdy and Dthomas3523. groups don’t reflect your videos. don’t use cheap bullets and expect match-level results. You said you are not set up for precision reloading so that may be key. I suggest you get one box of match Hornady or federal ammo so you can rule out your handloads as the issue. have you shot sub-MOA groups with your method using other rifles?

Yeah, I need much better projectiles and at least a neck sizing mandrel and micrometer seating die. I'll call my local gun shop and see what match ammo they can scrounge up for me.

I'm really not sure I can shoot better than 1MOA. Only this year have I been trying to up my shooting game as far as technique, and this is my only centerfire bolt gun at the moment. A neighbor has a semi-custom Remington 700 in 6.5cm, and I can hit 1MOA gongs with that rifle out to 620yds with boring regularity...not an impressive feat, but it's my only reference, having never shot that rifle for groups.

 

[Smittiac]

Yeah, I need much better projectiles and at least a neck sizing mandrel and micrometer seating die. I'll call my local gun shop and see what match ammo they can scrounge up for me.

I'm really not sure I can shoot better than 1MOA. Only this year have I been trying to up my shooting game as far as technique, and this is my only centerfire bolt gun at the moment. A neighbor has a semi-custom Remington 700 in 6.5cm, and I can hit 1MOA gongs with that rifle out to 620yds with boring regularity...not an impressive feat, but it's my only reference, having never shot that rifle for groups.

You honestly don't need the mandrel or a micro seater, just some calipers that are accurate and use the expander button in the sizing die. If you wanna get super super precise then sure get all the fancy stuff, Panhandle Precision guy just uses the button expander in his 260 Rem.

 

[Feurhand]

That's great, I have a pair of Mitutoyo analog calipers which should be accurate enough. I didn't realize I could adjust the expander in the sizing die...clearly I need to re-read the instructions. Thanks guys, learning is much easier with some help.

 

[Smittiac]

You can't adjust how much it expands, if you're getting 1.5-3 thousandths neck tension you should be golden. Just run it through the sizer with the button, then measure the neck diameter, then seat the bullet and measure again. It's probably going to be right around that anyways.

If the expander is opening it up to much you can chuck it up in your drill and use sand paper (I suggest like 600 grit or finer) to shave half a thou off or so if you want more tension.

 

[seansmd]

Just an observation, are your feet up against the bed of the truck, if so is it possible there is tension in your leg and back muscles as part of your position?

 

[Feurhand]

Hard to see in the video, but my feet aren't touching the back of the bed.

 

[Feurhand]

Hit my local gun shop this morning, picked up 8lbs of Accurate 2520 and the last box of 69gr Sierra Matchkings. Looking forward to seeing how much difference a quality projectile makes.

 

[Feurhand]

Got a chance to shoot the Matchkings today, and results are disappointing. My best group was a hair under 0.9 MOA, which is about equal to the best group with bulk 55gr fmj in my OP. I switched to LC brass for these and am using a different powder (AA2520). This is also after ditching the plastic factory stock for a B&C M40. These groups technically satisfy Weatherby's accuracy guarantee, but I was expecting to see more difference between the 69 SMK and my 8 cent-per-round fmj.

Could this be a scope problem? In between strings I practiced dry-firing with a dime balanced on the end of the barrel. I had no problem breaking the shot without disturbing the coin, but noticed the reticle would sometimes jump 1/2 MOA to the right. All my groups are biased to the right, even after I adjusted the windage on my last range trip. I know this is a different powder/projectile, but I'm beginning to suspect a tracking problem or loose screw, even though I double-checked and thread-locked everything on the rifle. Will swap on another scope next time and see if that eliminates a variable.

If I determine it's not the scope, it must be either me or the barrel. Kinda wishing I'd bought a Tikka right about now.

 

[theLBC]

spitballing, but relatively light fmj is easy to spin, and that is why people running slower twist rates sometimes have better success.
for better accuracy "potential" you want to use heavier bullets like you are trying, but i think you would want 1:8 or faster twist.
with a 1:9 twist you will probably find everything 70gr or more is only marginally stable (according to berger's spin calculator).
you can even plug in the weight and length of that fmj and see stability jump for 1:9 twist.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Hows that for a Xmas present?
Free tuition from top notch instructors!
One thing I've learned from SH, is a bubble level on my scope.
It's forced me to tidy up my routine and technique.
Not sure it applies to you, my point is there is a wealth of knowledge on this site.
Hope it all works out for you.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

All my groups are biased to the right, even after I adjusted the windage on my last range trip. I know this is a different powder/projectile, but I'm beginning to suspect a tracking problem or loose screw, even though I double-checked and thread-locked everything on the rifle. Will swap on another scope next time and see if that eliminates a variable.

Could be the scope, or the lack of tracking could be because the scope rings are too tight, constricting the tube. Just to confirm, you used a torque wrench and the lower of the scope and ring manufacturers' suggested q values correct?

I've also seen left/right POI shifts when changing powders in loads. May want to take two different load combos with you to test that.

I use 242 and witness marks on all scope mounting bolts. I don't think I've ever had one wiggle loose at minimum torque - but I'm also not shooting magnums.

 

[Lowlight]

The reticle moving under dry fire is not a broken scope it’s a broken natural point of aim and your hold is wrong

The reticle moving telling me your npa is jacked

 

[Rocketvapor]

There are several ways to evaluate your problem, but for cheap;
Duct tape a green Laser to your rifle stock.
Point it in the general down range direction.
Video the dot while you dry fire.

 

[Lowlight]

One get out of the bed of the truck, two take a class

Your most basic position, your hold, etc, needs to be adjusted you’re not correctly attached to the rifle

I can show you in a video but it won’t really register, I can tell you but it’s not gonna work unless you get some one there to watch you

These are day one issues, which are common but you have to start from the beginning.

Rifle pointed to target body pointed to rifle. The grip is not a grip but a straight back pressure using you’re grasper fingers but not a tight grip but a pressure back

This is shooter and fixable but it’s more detailed than many realize

 

[Feurhand]

One get out of the bed of the truck, two take a class

Your most basic position, your hold, etc, needs to be adjusted you’re not correctly attached to the rifle
...
Rifle pointed to target body pointed to rifle. The grip is not a grip but a straight back pressure using you’re grasper fingers but not a tight grip but a pressure back
This is shooter and fixable but it’s more detailed than many realize

Thank you, I really appreciate the advice.

 

[LimaKilo]

Feurhand,
have you checked the parallax on your scope?

 

[Feurhand]

@LimaKilo
Do you mean if I've checked that parallax is adjusted correctly? Or could it be another problem? I do check parallax every time I go out.
I'm leaning more towards user error, though I still think I should see better results.

 

[LimaKilo]

@LimaKilo
Do you mean if I've checked that parallax is adjusted correctly? Or could it be another problem? I do check parallax every time I go out.
I'm leaning more towards user error, though I still think I should see better results.

The issues you're having could very well be caused by problems with your scope's parallax setting.

I'd suggest that you try this:

1. set the parallax for what ever distance you're shooting
2. set the rifle on sandbags / benchrest and put the crosshairs on a target spot
3. move your head & eye while looking through the scope without disturbing the rifle
--> crosshair should stay on the target spot
4. if point of aim changes when you're moving your head, try adjusting parallax up and down until reticle no longer moves when you move your head
--> if it's not possible to achieve this even after adjusting the parallax, something is wrong with the scope's parallax.

My friend was having similar problems to yours with a Leupold fixed parallax scope mounted on his Sako .243 Win.
Long story short, I test shot the rifle and it was immediately obvious that the scopes parallax was messed up.
Scope was sent to Leupold and they ended up replacing the erector system and windage & elevation adjustments and also adjusted the parallax.

 

[Precision Underground]

@lowlight I was able to get out today and shoot two groups for your review. I already noticed a couple things I need to improve, will add them below with spoilers so I don't influence anyone. Looking forward to learning how much I don't know.

Spoiler

I need to step through my position and double-check everything before starting the shot. Are my heels down? Is my NPA correct? Is the rifle in my shoulder pocket? Are my hands where they need to be, and doing what they need to be doing? Stuff like that. I also saw I developed a flinch in the second string, so I should no doubt be dry-firing between groups. It was really bright though, and I was looking into the sun.

Top group is "first_string" and bottom group is "second_string". Both about 1.5"@ 100yd, using 23gr load from first post.

This isn’t “the” problem because guys can shoot good groups like this, but it’s a great illustration of what I constantly preach with recoil management/fundamentals. IMO, for a true NPA you have to have the rifle connected to you. So you need to connect yourself to the ground and connect the rifle to you. You are connecting the rifle to the ground(the truck) and then connecting yourself to the rifle. It sounds like semantics but there’s a huge difference. This is one of the reasons you are having to adjust so much. Your 100% dependent on the bag to keep you on target but also forcing the bag to support part of you when you mount up on the rifle. You want to drive the rifle, not ride the rifle... if that makes sense.

 

[Sparkeytj]

I find when I'm having issues I have someone else shoot my rifle. Seems like everyone else is better than me with my rifle, less baggage I guess. At least you know if its you or the rifle