Need help: Impossible to full length size

[Kevin1]

I reloaded around 10 times some 308 FGM brasses. I started noticing that the bolt is getting hard to close. So I tried to full length size them and I’m having issues.
I tried two full length seizing dies (RCBS and Lee) and followed the instructions with no success.
I screw the die until it touches shell holder, then one full turn back. Put some lube, lot of resistance and still the bolt is hard to close.
I do the same operation several time, and each time I screw the die with 1/4 turn increment. There press gets harder and harder to operate so I start using gun oil on the brass instead of the reloading lube and after one additional full turn the bolt is still hard to close.
After 1 and 1/4 additional turn, there was a lot of resistance and I had to really push hard on the press. At that point the brass broke and got stuck in the die.

I need to know what is it that I’m doing wrong. I don’t want this to happen to my expensive Lapua brasses that I’m currently using.
Thanks

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

Three super easy ABC's should clear this up for you:

A.)Step One.......

B.)Step Two......

C.)Step Three......

Of course mileage may infact vary...........

 

[Kevin1]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

You forgot


D) Step four....

Read it and you'll see it describes exactly what I did.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Three super easy ABC's should clear this up for you:

A.)Step One.......

B.)Step Two......

C.)Step Three......

Of course mileage may infact vary........... </div></div>

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

I'd never have guessed, actually.......

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

now you just said that you set the die by turning it in till it touched the shell holder,then one turn back.right

well thats just plain wrong.you should turn the die in to touch the shell holder then a 1/4 turn more.doing this the die will then resize the brass to fit any 308.or most of them anyway.

the way you said you did it just started to resize the brass ( neck size )if you use the Lee die and set it like I said to it will work.if you just want to bump the shoulder with the Lee die then you need to do this. run the ram up.turn the die in till it touches the shell holder and lock it down but not to tight.now run a lubed case in.now clean the case and see if it fits the chamber with out a fight.if so turn the die in a little more not much.run a lubed case in again and try it.now you will need to keep doing this till you have no trouble at all chambering the case.( one way to really tell is to remove the fireing pin from your bolt )this will allow you to feel a better fit with the resized case in the chamber.

one thing to look for when useing a Lee FL die.you should be able to see a slight ring around the shoulder of a case when you have just bumped the shoulder.this trick has been a hudge help to my resizeing useing my Lee FL die.every time I see a slight ring I know I have just bumped the shoulder.

now you said its really hard to resize.this tells me that your chamber is really off.I hope that I am wrong but think I'm right.its either off center or over sized not sure.

all so do not put lube on the shoulder area.it will push the shoulder back to much and cause trouble.( to much headspace )or even hurt the brass.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

What is your chamber length? Brass length? Throat length? Cartridge length to ogive?

Chamber clean?

 

[Radar360]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 5R milspec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... turn the die in to touch the shell holder then 1/4 turn more.</div></div>

+1 just a quarter turn more does it for me.

 

[Sprayed99]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I reloaded around 10 times some 308 FGM brasses. I started noticing that the bolt is getting hard to close. So I tried to full length size them and I’m having issues.
I tried two full length seizing dies (RCBS and Lee) and followed the instructions with no success.
I screw the die until it touches shell holder, then one full turn back. Put some lube, lot of resistance and still the bolt is hard to close.
I do the same operation several time, and each time I screw the die with 1/4 turn increment. There press gets harder and harder to operate so I start using gun oil on the brass instead of the reloading lube and after one additional full turn the bolt is still hard to close.
After 1 and 1/4 additional turn, there was a lot of resistance and I had to really push hard on the press. At that point the brass broke and got stuck in the die.

I need to know what is it that I’m doing wrong. I don’t want this to happen to my expensive Lapua brasses that I’m currently using.
Thanks
</div></div>

Are you trimming your brass?

 

[Radar360]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

... just to be sure. You bring it to where it's just touching. Then put the handle back up (in other words not pressing the case anymore). Then turn only a quarter (NOT one and a quarter, just a quarter). I don't bother moving it back one turn, just a quarter more.

The one AND a quarter is way too much. Get a feel of it and whenever it feels too soft, it not there yet. When it feels it takes too much pressure, it's gone beyond.

A quarter turn.

Put a black mark down your your die where the you grab to turn it and it will facilitate to see how much your moving it.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

Get a Headspace gauge, don't be affraid to cam over on the press, keep screwing the FL die down until the gauge reads .0015 less.

 

[REELDOC]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

Redding Competition Shell Holders quickly became my friends and eliminated much frustration.

 

[Kevin1]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

Some clarifications:
- The gun is clean.
- OAL length touching the land with SMK 175 has an average of 2.826
- I have no resistance closing the bolt with Lapua and Winchester cases (already reloaded 5 times by only neck zing). So I don’t think the rifle’s chamber is out of spec.
- The bolt is hard to close only with the FGM cases that have been reloaded 10 times. The reason I initially turn the die back 1 full turn and screw it in by 1/4 turn increment is to size the case just enough for the bolt to close without effort but not too much (to have it to new case spec) to keep an accurate size that matches my chamber (recommended by Sierra reloading book). After 5 increments of 1/4 turns, I ended up having the die screw in +1/4 turn to where it was touching the shell holder (this is the setting most of you have recommended) . With each 1/4 increments I chambered the case and the bolt was still hard to close. I did this until finally the case broke and got stock in the die
- Timing: Before sizing, I trimmed the case from 2.010 to 2.007. My first attempt (with die screwed out 1 full turn), I felt a lot of resistance. I re measured the case and it length had gone from 2.070 to 2.012. So Before I screw in the dies by a 1/4 increment, I trimmed it again to 2.005 this time. With my next increments the case didn’t get longer than 2.007.

Frankly I don’t understand why I have to push so hard on the press. Since the bolt is still closing (even if it’s with resistance) I imagine I shouldn’t have to push so hard on the press to be able to size the case just enough to be able to close the bolt with no resistance.
At this point, I think that I’ll just give up resizing my cases as it could potentially require the purchase of additional measuring tools. When the bolt gets too hard to close I’ll just stop using those cases. I got to reload the FGM about 10 times and have to see how many reloads will I get with my Lapua cases before the bolt gets hard to close.

 

[25MAN]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

Maybe your sizing die is slightly out of spec...call the company and explain your issue they may send you a new die and it may fix your headache...I have seen the issue it not common but can happen.

 

[judgedelta]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

I have noticed when I have to push really hard on the press, it is a lubrication issue. Same with the stuck case...

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

Since this is not rocket science, I must assume this guy is doing something wrong?

First, he has much effort on the ram stroke and has the shellholder bottomed out on the die. Second, he managed to get a case stuck and this is difficult to do. Or. He could have the decapping pin much too deep, with the collet hitting the bottom of the case.

Whatever, he really needs to invite a friend over to show him the error of his ways. I seriously doubt there is something wrong with his chamber. I doubt there is something wrong with his dies and I doubt there is a problem with the cases.....if he says he has them trimmed to 10 thou. under specs.

Therefore, he is doing something very wrong.

Now, if he has resized other brass without problems, why is he (suddenly) readjusting his die for these ten times fired cases?

Sum Ting Wong! BB

 

[Radar360]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

Sum Ting Wong is wright.

There has got to some dimension wrong with the case which means there's a fault in the process. Before a staff of bullet builder specialists come over - maybe check all case external dimensions on the FGM cases again and compare them to the ones working for him. Start with the neck and work you're way down.

 

[Kevin1]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

Resolved… Thanks

First let me say that I had never completely resized a case. I was certainly doing something wrong (probably wrong length of expander decap assembly, or lubing neck and shoulder)…. Because during my previous attempts, I broke the hard wood plate that came with my Lee reloading stand. After that I order a steal plate and forced the press even more. This time the case gave up first.
So I took my other resizing die (the RCBS since Lee has a case stuck in it), followed the procedure by lubing the case body with Lee resizing lubricant (not the neck and shoulder) and by properly adjusting the length of expander decap assembly and magic…. It worked. I’m pretty sure my problem was the adjustment of the expander decap assembly.
Now I’m going to try to get the case out of the Lee die and test it again.

Please note that neither the Sierra reloading book nor Lee’s instructions mention anything about the correct adjustment of the expander decap assembly and it was only mentioned in RCBS’s instructions.


I do have 2 questions:
1. Could someone please explain to me the purpose of expander decap assembly?
2. Lee’s instructions says “be sure to lube the inside of the case neck with cotton swab”. Is this true?

Thanks all,

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

The expander "resizes" the neck after you compress it in the die because this allows for differences in neck thickness. The expander assures that the neck inside dimension is correct for seating the bullet.

You can lightly lube the inside neck with a bronze brush, nylon brush, cotton swab or just rub the rim with an oily finger. This prevents the expander ball from pulling/distorting the necks on the upstroke. Maybe. But, understand, there are others ways of doing these things. When you are ready, you might be curious. BB

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please note that neither the Sierra reloading book nor Lee’s instructions mention anything about the correct adjustment of the expander decap assembly and it was only mentioned in RCBS’s instructions.


I do have 2 questions:
1. Could someone please explain to me the purpose of expander decap assembly?
2. Lee’s instructions says “be sure to lube the inside of the case neck with cotton swab”. Is this true?

</div></div>

That's because setting up the decap assembly is pretty self explanatory...in most circles.

The purpose of it is to first punch out the old primer, and then as you withdrawl the case the neck is pulled over the expander, which returns the neck's internal diameter to "spec".

They sell soft plastic bristle neck brushes that are similar to bore brushes in design, that are used to "clean" and lubricate the inside of the neck. Just apply a drop or two of lube to the brush before doing a batch of necks. Push in, pull out, is all you have to do. You can do it with a cotton swab but that's a slow pain in the ass way to take on an otherwise easy step.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

He says, (today) that he has not actually resized before, which explains a lot.

Somewhere, in almost every manual, or in your instruction that come with the dies, it shows you how to adjust the decapping pin. It will say to not adjust it any deeper than necessary, and should explain the consequences. Necessary being just expelling the primer and not further. Which is where we are at. BB

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

I would all so get a better lube.the lee stuff just doesn't cut it for me.as soon as I got my press kit I put that stuff in the trash.get something alot better like mink oil shoe polish.its just as good as the imperial wax and you get more of if alot cheaper.

a q-tip with a little lube gets the inside lubed for me.but remember not to put lube on the shoulder.

I cannot say to the other die but can for the Lee.to set the expander/decapper you just need to loosen the collet and hold the expander/decapper flush and retighten it.but not so tight you strip it out.

 

[GreyWDE]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

http://www.rcbs.com/resources/videos/

This one will help you more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP4p6HEEEUM&feature=related

 

[aloreman]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

note to self. if you pull the handle and its hard.....stop

 

[Kevin1]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

This guy was dead on!
Before I read his post, I was telling myself the exact same thing…This is not rocket science….Then I found the assembly adjustment instructions in RCBS’s manual, corrected the problem and saw his response (in which he had already figured out everything including the fact that this could be the first time I’m resizing).

It’s funny though how you address me as a third person. But since there is an obvious gap between your wealth of knowledge and my relative ignorance, I completely understand.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since this is not rocket science, I must assume this guy is doing something wrong?

First, he has much effort on the ram stroke and has the shellholder bottomed out on the die. Second, he managed to get a case stuck and this is difficult to do. Or. He could have the decapping pin much too deep, with the collet hitting the bottom of the case.

Whatever, he really needs to invite a friend over to show him the error of his ways. I seriously doubt there is something wrong with his chamber. I doubt there is something wrong with his dies and I doubt there is a problem with the cases.....if he says he has them trimmed to 10 thou. under specs.

Therefore, he is doing something very wrong.

Now, if he has resized other brass without problems, why is he (suddenly) readjusting his die for these ten times fired cases?

Sum Ting Wong! BB </div></div>

 

[Kevin1]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

BTW I wasn't able to get the case out of the Lee sizing die (after loosening the decap screw, using a hammer with a drift punch). I don't really care since it only cost me $5. I bought the set of 3 dies that was only $5 more expensive than the set of two dies that I was really interested in (neck sizing and seating die).

 

[Subxero]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

i had a similar problem with some hornady dies i recently bought for .308

been reloading .223 and .243 for years.

My brother in law got a .308 and i told him i would reload for him.

Got some once shot brass from a good source where i new what kind of brass and what it was shot out of.

Went to FL size and (holy shit this is tight) broke the table my press was on. Got new table reinforced it and got a piece to full cycle.

thought this is not right

did everything, looked the brass over (nothing there)
took die back apart wiped it clean check everything set it back up nothing there.

Then i made sure the die on my (turret style press) was lined up perfectly with the cam, it was off by a fraction of an inch and that made things a little better.

It was still a little tight for the first 2 shells but once some of the imperial sizing wax lubed things up off the case it went much smoother.

So now no issues there, but they are still a bitch to get back out. The expander ball is super tight but puts things in spec soo not sure what is up there.

Could be the dies though, it is not unheard of.

i emailed hornady, they told me to send them in.... i hate sending stuff back, takes up my time, haven't sent them back yet.

I check all specs on them they seem right size, shot a few out of my brother in laws .308 and they shot perfectly fine.

 

[Judd]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

I know to the old timers questions like this are aggravating but to a newbie wet behind the ears guy who is fixin to start reloading this was educational.

I can read the manual and books all I want but for whatever reason I learn a lot more hearing a problem and its solution first hand like this rather than a manual.

Glad you figured it out Kevin.

 

[normbal]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

I use Lee all the time. I have two challenger presses I've cranked out thousands of rounds of .308, .223, .375 H&H, .458 Win Mag and .338 LM on (as well as several handgun calibers), I even use Lee dies for some things.

I had a similar problem last week using RCBS FLS dies for .338 LM. Cases that had been fired once wouldn't chamber in my gun and I couldn't get the things to bump back far enough.

I took a DMT Duosharp 600/1200 diamond sharpener and some water to the Lee shell holder (which is a perfect fit for the Lapua brass) and took off five thousandths of an inch from the top of the shell holder. Took about fifteen minutes.

This gave me the extra two thousandths I needed to bump the shoulder back on the case. Problem solved.

Always work on the cheapest/easiest to replace part first.

I imagine using an RCBS press, with RCBS shell holders, with RCBS dies, it would all fit right, but, that said, I've owned a Dillon RL550 press and now a Dillon XL650. Both of which have cranked out, literally, 40+ thousand pistol and rifle rounds. I've gotten permission from Dillon to take their dies down a few thousandths in similar circumstances (with the case trimmer gadget).

Don't hate on Lee equipment.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

Well I just went and dug through the loading room and sure enough, I found all the information that would have prevented this problem. The instruction booklet that comes with Lee dies and Redding dies clearly states how to set up a FL die and adjust the decapping pin and why its important. I will bet money all the other die manufacturers dies come with an instruction booklet that disseminates the same information.
When all else fails <span style="text-decoration: line-through">read the directions </span>ask the internet.

 

[Kevin1]

Re: Need help: Impossible to full length size

To those insisting that the instructions are clear enough...

I just scanned Lee's instructions.
Please tell me where do you see anything about the correct adjustment of the expander decap assembly.