Rifle Scopes Need help selecting LEO scope

C

Combloc

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 21, 2018
132
127
Stillwater, OK
#1
Hello gentlemen. I reach out to you for your expertise and opinion. Let me give you a little backstory.

I am an LEO from a small dept in the midwest. We have a 12 man tactical team and a 2 man sniper team. I've been on the entry team for several years and one of the members of our sniper team retired. Given that I have some long range shooting experience I was considered most qualified and appointed the position.

I was given the dept rifle which is a 700 SPS. The optic on it is an old Leupold VX-1 4-12 with a duplex reticle.

Having shot long range for fun in the past and having some moderatley priced gear, this optic is awful. It's milky at 12x, my $200 PSA 4-14ffp is clearer, it has capped turrets and it doesn't have an illuminated reticle.

I'm looking to replace this optic as soon as possible. Unfortunately my department won't provide me with any funds for a new optic and I'm tight on money.

I can probably budget around $800 for an optic, and I'm 100% ok with purchasing something used.

My requirements are somewhere around $800, an illuminated reticle, moa or mil turrets are both ok, and something other than a duplex reticle.

Nanchez has the weaver tactical 3-15 for 599. I've heard great reviews of this optic but I know nothing of it's durability.

Some other optics I've found in my price range new are the vortex viper pst II and the Trijicon Accupower.

Can anyone make any recommendations or suggestions based on what I've found or anything else in my range? I've been eyeing the classifieds here like a hawk as well.

Sorry for being long winded and thank you guys again!
 
#7
Yoteski said:
Yep, far cheaper than a lawsuit, getting someone hurt, or putting fellow officers at risk because you choose to be "budget minded."
Click to expand...

I completely understand what you are saying. Unfortunately our admin doesn't see it that way and they basically laugh at us when we ask for anything monetary.

The other guy on the team is running a viper pstII. When he got the rifle it had a Nikon Buckmaster on it! I feel like the optic that is on it now is a liability but the gun shoots straight and so far the scope has tracked accurate out to 500 yds.
 
#9
Combloc said:
I completely understand what you are saying. Unfortunately our admin doesn't see it that way and they basically laugh at us when we ask for anything monetary.

The other guy on the team is running a viper pstII. When he got the rifle it had a Nikon Buckmaster on it! I feel like the optic that is on it now is a liability but the gun shoots straight and so far the scope has tracked accurate out to 500 yds.
Click to expand...

The PST Gen II has been really repeatable for me in the last year. Once I had known dope it has always been repeatable. Example: I took my 223 out to 1200 (~14mils) at K&M then dialed back to my 100 yard zero for the accushot stage and my zero didn't change at all from the pervious days check.
 
#10
Hi,

Request your admin contact their insurance company and have them pull for settlement cases to show just how much it WILL cost the department to go cheap on equipment.

Also have your admin look into and fill out grants for equipment.

Have any members of the Tactical Team been to sniper school at FLETC?

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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#12
THEIS said:
Hi,

Request your admin contact their insurance company and have them pull for settlement cases to show just how much it WILL cost the department to go cheap on equipment.

Also have your admin look into and fill out grants for equipment.

Have any members of the Tactical Team been to sniper school at FLETC?

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...

Not to FLETC, but he's been to several courses held by other agencies and a handful of classes at Badlands Tactical.
 
#15
if you are one a budget, watch the classifeds here. that is how you are going to get the most for your money. tax return time is coming, and new stuff is getting released by everyone under the sun and many of us suffer from wanting to upgrade/try different shit....it is an addiction.

BUT...this all leads to opportunities for folks to pick up equipment they might not otherwise ever be able to afford. as far as which brand....all i would advise is stick with a brand that has a bulletproof warrenty.....many of them do.
 
#16
I honestly wouldn't get behind the gun if the agency wants to issue you shit and do the job. Don't take this wrong, but it sounds like you and your agency, or perhaps both are wanting to fill a position that they're not serious about.
Don't carry the rifle to look cool in pics and slap each others backs saying how badass you are; carry it to save someone's life. Imagine if your son, daughter, mom, etc. depended on you and your equipment to save a life, then make your decision.
 
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#17
Yoteski said:
I honestly wouldn't get behind the gun if the agency wants to issue you shit and do the job. Don't take this wrong, but it sounds like you and your agency, or perhaps both are wanting to fill a position that they're not serious about.
Don't carry the rifle to look cool in pics and slap each others backs saying how badass you are; carry it to save someone's life. Imagine if your son, daughter, mom, etc. depended on you and your equipment to save a life, then make your decision.
Click to expand...

It's absolutely not about bragging rights and photo ops for me. I understand why you are saying that but it really pisses me off that you are absolutely right that there are officers out there like that.

Every mission we've deployed I've been taking the spotter role because I'm not comfortable with the optic even though it hasn't let me down on the range for months.
 
#18
Combloc said:
It's absolutely not about bragging rights and photo ops for me. I understand why you are saying that but it really pisses me off that you are absolutely right that there are officers out there like that.

Every mission we've deployed I've been taking the spotter role because I'm not comfortable with the optic even though it hasn't let me down on the range for months.
Click to expand...

It sounds like your head is in the right place brother. Not trying to be an ass, just don't want you to get strung up over bad equipment. Be safe.
 
#21
Hi,

Paging @j-huskey :)

Edited To Add:
It sounds like your department head might need to decide if they really want their own Tac Team or not. If they are not willing to support the Team with proper equipment and training then they might as well disband it and pay a better equipped Team from a town over. It will not take but a couple call outs for your department to run the numbers and see how much cheaper it would be to support its' own team :)

Sincerely,
Theis
 
Last edited:
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#23
THEIS said:
Hi,

Request your admin contact their insurance company and have them pull for settlement cases to show just how much it WILL cost the department to go cheap on equipment.

Also have your admin look into and fill out grants for equipment.

Have any members of the Tactical Team been to sniper school at FLETC?

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...
i swear to fuck ill never go back to Artesia. EVER!!
 
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#24
THEIS said:
Hi,

Paging @j-huskey :)

Edited To Add:
It sounds like your department head might need to decide if they really want their own Tac Team or not. If they are not willing to support the Team with proper equipment and training then they might as well disband it and pay a better equipped Team from a town over. It will not take but a couple call outs for your department to run the numbers and see how much cheaper it would be to support its' own team :)

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...

@THEIS Present and accounted for. SIR!!!

Not ready to answer yet....
But I will....

@Combloc , please read this thread. There are many things in that, which need understanding.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/remington-700-police-sniper-rifle.6914035/
 
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#25
1. Based on your career experience, real world, what is the longest shot your agency can anticipate taking.
Please base this on sniper based data from your actual callouts, your agency and surrounding agencies in your county, or "just across the line" with which you have mutual aid agreements with.

Thanks, vr
 
#26
2. What distance shot will your department head approve?

3. Will your department approve personal equipment or personal purchase, and include the approval form in your personnel file?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Vortex Viper or Trijicon scope you mention in your original post. They WILL work fine, as long as you use it in a reasonable and responsible manner, shooting from 100-300 primarily and say twice a year out to perhaps 600.

However, if your department will not approve it and document it, its ultimately going to be liability on you and vicarious liability on them if something goes south. Nobody can force you to take a shot you know you cant make....
 
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#27
I've read that ASA doc, multiple times, but thank you for the link as it is a good refresher and always gets me to think of new training ideas. There was some other valuable information in the thread as well.

Longest shot, probably 300 yards at absolute max. It would be rare for us to setup over 100 yards on the vast majority of missions. The ADA stats are very similar to what I've seen, 60-75 yards.
 
#28
2. The department head has no say in us taking shots on the team. And I wouldnt take a shot if I wasn't confident I could hit it.

3. We can make personal purchases and modify weapons at the approval of armorer and or team commander.
 
#29
There is nothing wrong with either of the two scopes in your original post. I would approve them at my dept under your circumstances.
To the naysayers to this, any scope can fail, there are those that have and those that are going to.
 
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#30
You want a rugged scope. You want the scope to be in the 2nd focal plane. You want something you can dial down to 2 to 4 power and dial up to 12 to 15 power min on the high end. I spend a lot of time at 3.5 power on call outs for the field of view. You’ll want something you can dial up so you can tell if he has a gun in his hand or a cell phone etc. Good luck, come from a similar situation. Ended up springing for a NF NXS on my own dollar.[/QUOTE]
 
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#33
From personal experience, if you don’t go sfp, look for something with daylight visible illumination.

If there is a chance for longer shots, I’d look into something with some sort of holdover. Being in that price range, dialing is a liability.

I would perform a tracking test every 30 days or so on an optic in that price range.

You’re in a rough spot. At that price range, I’d almost just run a leupold mk4. Or pick up a mk5 with a little extra added on top from your own pocket.

Agreed with something around 3x low end.

If it were me, I’d be saving and doing whatever I had to, to make a personal purchase for an optic I had 100% faith in.
 
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#34
Leupold MK4 would probably do the trick for you and without breaking the bank. Lots of way better options out there, but for what you need and the budget in mind, I think that would be a good fit.
 
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#35
Dthomas3523 said:
If there is a chance for longer shots, I’d look into something with some sort of holdover. Being in that price range, dialing is a liability.

I would perform a tracking test every 30 days or so on an optic in that price range.
Click to expand...

I will agree with part one, on a scope reticle to do holdovers for longer ranges, and 1st Focal Plane is better than 2nd for this.

Part 2, checking box test every 30 days on "this price range optic", I strongly disagree.

Once upon a time, a long time ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and the Leupold M3A 10x scope was the Army issue.....
The Ft. Benning sniper school and SOTIC both determined the scopes click values were inconsistent as these scopes aged. The older and more used, clicked up and down, (or box tested a lot), had inconsistent click values. A serious amount of research went into this by Battlelab, a defense contractor in Building 4, and at the school.
Eventually the Christmas tree reticle was the answer to erector wear....

Doing as dthomas suggests is not the best thing for less expensive scopes. It increases wear and creates an unwanted problem.

Tracking cold bore zeroes and using holds to 300 yards is a much much much better option with a less expensive scope.
If, and only if, you have a serious zero shift without a hard knock, by all means do a box test, but.
Unless the zero shifts, leave it alone... just shoot the f out of it and record record record the data until you know the weapon system like the back of your hand....

Using a police sniper weapon as a long range competition unit running the turrets in practice for and in matches when you WILL NOT ever make a 700+ yard sniper shot is NOT the best Utilization of your equipment or training time.

Take this information for the price you paid for it.

It is not directed at dthomas in a negative way, it is 37 years of experience speaking, and somebody who was part of those dinosaur tests.
Who still trains LE and still does the testing.
 
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#36
Combloc said:
Hello gentlemen. I reach out to you for your expertise and opinion. Let me give you a little backstory.

I am an LEO from a small dept in the midwest. We have a 12 man tactical team and a 2 man sniper team. I've been on the entry team for several years and one of the members of our sniper team retired. Given that I have some long range shooting experience I was considered most qualified and appointed the position.

I was given the dept rifle which is a 700 SPS. The optic on it is an old Leupold VX-1 4-12 with a duplex reticle.

Having shot long range for fun in the past and having some moderatley priced gear, this optic is awful. It's milky at 12x, my $200 PSA 4-14ffp is clearer, it has capped turrets and it doesn't have an illuminated reticle.

I'm looking to replace this optic as soon as possible. Unfortunately my department won't provide me with any funds for a new optic and I'm tight on money.

I can probably budget around $800 for an optic, and I'm 100% ok with purchasing something used.

My requirements are somewhere around $800, an illuminated reticle, moa or mil turrets are both ok, and something other than a duplex reticle.

Nanchez has the weaver tactical 3-15 for 599. I've heard great reviews of this optic but I know nothing of it's durability.

Some other optics I've found in my price range new are the vortex viper pst II and the Trijicon Accupower.

Can anyone make any recommendations or suggestions based on what I've found or anything else in my range? I've been eyeing the classifieds here like a hawk as well.

Sorry for being long winded and thank you guys again!
Click to expand...
Our tact team used Nightforce NXS. 3-15. And Razor gen 2 3-18! You might be able to get a used vx6hd or vx5hd for around $800 and I have not heard a negative on either
 
#37
j-huskey said:
I will agree with part one, on a scope reticle to do holdovers for longer ranges, and 1st Focal Plane is better than 2nd for this.

Part 2, checking box test every 30 days on "this price range optic", I strongly disagree.

Once upon a time, a long time ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and the Leupold M3A 10x scope was the Army issue.....
The Ft. Benning sniper school and SOTIC both determined the scopes click values were inconsistent as these scopes aged. The older and more used, clicked up and down, (or box tested a lot), had inconsistent click values. A serious amount of research went into this by Battlelab, a defense contractor in Building 4, and at the school.
Eventually the Christmas tree reticle was the answer to erector wear....

Doing as dthomas suggests is not the best thing for less expensive scopes. It increases wear and creates an unwanted problem.

Tracking cold bore zeroes and using holds to 300 yards is a much much much better option with a less expensive scope.
If, and only if, you have a serious zero shift without a hard knock, by all means do a box test, but.
Unless the zero shifts, leave it alone... just shoot the f out of it and record record record the data until you know the weapon system like the back of your hand....

Using a police sniper weapon as a long range competition unit running the turrets in practice for and in matches when you WILL NOT ever make a 700+ yard sniper shot is NOT the best Utilization of your equipment or training time.

Take this information for the price you paid for it.

It is not directed at dthomas in a negative way, it is 37 years of experience speaking, and somebody who was part of those dinosaur tests.
Who still trains LE and still does the testing.
Click to expand...

“It worked back then” is not a valid arguement.

Also, waiting for a problem to show up, is also not a good way to stay pro-active.

Even the cheaper scopes now have as good or better internals than the better scopes of yesteryear. If running the turrets once a month puts wear and tear on it, I’d rather do that and know when it takes a shit rather than hoping you notice it during your monthly(or less often) training.

This is of course if you ever intend to run the turrets at all in a real life scenario. If not, then I agree with the above.
 
#39
Hit me on a PM and I will talk off line with you if you like. I just retired but started our section exactly as your doing. I had lots of issues and also had to press the trigger once so I can give you the ins and outs on that and what will be reviewed and scrutinized. I also worked through lots of equipment over 14 years but education and training are going to be far more important then anything you place on your rifle. If you reach out to me I will talk optics for about 15 minutes but training, documentation and legal issues 15 days. I also ended my years as an instructor so more then willing to share lesson plans I wrote, but nothing from NTOA, SIG, Crosshairs, TACOps or any other entity I have material from. Reach me here or just look over some of my older posts. I don’t speak much, too many damn experts here, but when I have something of value to share I will not hold back.
 
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#40
I am in the same type of boat as you, I work in a small rural Sheriff's office and have to buy a lot of my own equipment. You wont go wrong with the Viper PST especially with the discount. I have been wondering how their new FFP Diamondback will hold up as well. I ended up with an Athlon Helos, which is a great scope for the money but way to high of a magnification for my use. Meopta has a new scope that looks promising as well the Optika6, I think.
 
#42
Take advantage of the discounts. One thing to consider is if u need illumination. Some of the training I've gotten instructors have opted out of using illumination so that your not having to argue on the stand that it was so dark you had to use illumination. Can be hard to determine someone is a threat at dark or dusk. As a sniper your preserving a third person and not usually yourself. Unless ur department is willing to get you a clip on, which good luck with that.
 
#44
A friend of mind that is a swat instrutor in PA uses Leupold VX-3I LRP in there department doesn't have a illuminate rectangle. He swears they are the best bang for the money as they are like most departments are short on budget funds. I have a vortex PST ll it's a great range scope but horrible in low light conditions and the eye relief is tricky. It does have a illuminate reticle but when u turn it on it even robs you of more shooting light. it's no way I'd use one of those if a life was on the line.
 
#45
Hattrick said:
I have a vortex PST ll it's a great range scope but horrible in low light conditions and the eye relief is tricky. It does have a illuminate reticle but when u turn it on it even robs you of more shooting light. it's no way I'd use one of those if a life was on the line.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I've mostly heard the viper II eye boxes are quite forgiving.
 
#46
Hi,

I just wanted to highlight a few things that might have been overlooked due to the speed of replies yesterday.

Sincerely,
Theis

j-huskey said:
There is nothing wrong with either of the two scopes in your original post. I would approve them at my dept under your circumstances.
Click to expand...



j-huskey said:
Take this information for the price you paid for it.
It is 37 years of experience speaking, and somebody who was part of those dinosaur tests.
Who still trains LE and still does the testing.
Click to expand...
 
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#48
aaron_presser said:
I have been wondering how their new FFP Diamondback will hold up as well.
Click to expand...
Shooting two Diamondback Tactical's on 22LR for several months now. One gun gets 3 matches a month running turrets up and down and the other just one NRL match a month. Yes not much recoil but so far dialing up and down working fine. The recital gets way thin at low power.
 
#49
Have you ever thought approaching some of your local pro-police businesses in your area as well as individuals to help fund their SWAT Sniper Team? Usually after they get a patch or Coin or T shirt after a donation everybody wants to open the check book.
 
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