Need help with die selection. What I'm doing is not working.

[PaC1776]

Currently have a Forster Coax press.

My die selection is a Forster Ultra Micrometer seating die and Forster FL sizing die. Case bodies and mouths lubed with Honady Unique. Using Redding competition shellholder set on fired cases.
Chamfer and debur done with Lyman case prep xpress.
Currently using new Winchester .308 brass with neck thickness about .012-.013 measured with ball mic. My loaded rounds are measuring about .332-.333 @ neck.

Problem is I'm having lots of runout. About .004 to .007 according to Sinclair concentricity tool.
I'm thinking the expander ball in the FL die is causing this problem.

Am considering buying a Redding type S FL bushing die and a expander mandrel or neck turning mandrel.
As many of you know the Winchester brass comes beat to shit. What bushings and mandrel (turning vs expanding) do I need, and in what order do I use them?

They way I have it in my head is.....

Size in FL bushing die
Mandrel die
Seat

Will this work or am I heading down another path of failure?

 

[bruddah]

You could
1: polish the ball expander
2: lube the inside of the neck
3: go to a mandrel type expander (I'd still lube the insides of the necks, or get a titanium nitride coated mandrel, or carbide mandrel if you don't want to lube the insides of the necks.

have you removed the ball expander and just sized the brass, then check runout? It should be zero unless your press/die set up is causing the issue.

get a gauge that measures runout on the thickness of the necks. If the necks aren't concentric themselves (thicker on one side than the other), you'll have issues when you size the inside of the mouth with the ball or mandrel.

Additionally, you can put a 7/8" rubber o-ring under the sizing die to let it "float" and also loosen up the ball expander so it also "floats" and doesn't pull the neck off to one side or the other.

some people also remove the metal clip that holds the shell holder in place, and replace it with a rubber o-ring around the outside of it to hold it in place, but allow the shell holder to "float" and center itself to the die.

Hope this helps.

 

[SPAK]

Take the expander ball out and see what you’re run out is.

that will tell you if it’s the expander ball or if it’s alt least contributing.

that being said if you’re sizing down more than .005-.006” in one step you might see runout increase. This is even printed on Redding’s webpage.

bushing die to size minimally will help, and expander mandrel couldxhelp too.

if you have a lot of neck wall thickness variation through out yoir lot of brass that will certainly not help but .001” in variation is pretty good.

To be honest Forster fls dies are actually pretty good in my experience... I’d actually try using some imperial sizing die wax on the expander ball and case to see if that helps... I’m not familiar with Hornady unique lube but since switching to imperial years ago I’ve never used anything else.

 

[Horns8491]

How and why are you using Redding shell holders with a co-ax?

 

[PaC1776]

Take the expander ball out and see what you’re run out is.

that will tell you if it’s the expander ball or if it’s alt least contributing.

Do I check the runout on the case neck or a loaded round?

 

[PaC1776]

How and why are you using Redding shell holders with a co-ax?

I had been using those on my Lee single stage. Not using them on Coax.

 

[SPAK]

Do it in steps.

first check a fired case. If run out is bad on a fired Case then yoir chamber is an issue already and things aren’t going to get better... .0005-.001” or less Of runout on fired cases is what I usually expect.

if fired case is good then size a case and check runout on the case body, on the shoulder, and on the neck. I suspect you will find you’re runout on the neck.

If yoire absolitely sure youre lubing the expander ball and case neck adequately and still getting runout at the neck take the expander ball out and size a case and see what your run out is.

That checks your sizing operation.

last I would seat some Bullets and check runout on loaded rounds as that’s what matters most.

the expander is designed to move brass irregularities to the outside of the case neck so having some runout on the necks isn’t completely abnormal....but I would agree that .004 or more isn’t necessarily good either.

any die I use with an expander ball I make sure I either polish or lube really well with imperial wax every couple of rounds. You’ll feel the difference when the expander comes out with more friction than when there is adequate lube.

 

[PaC1776]

Do it in steps.

first check a fired case. If run out is bad on a fired Case then yoir chamber is an issue already and things aren’t going to get better... .0005-.001” or less Of runout on fired cases is what I usually expect.

if fired case is good then size a case and check runout on the case body, on the shoulder, and on the neck. I suspect you will find you’re runout on the neck.

If yoire absolitely sure youre lubing the expander ball and case neck adequately and still getting runout at the neck take the expander ball out and size a case and see what your run out is.

That checks your sizing operation.

last I would seat some Bullets and check runout on loaded rounds as that’s what matters most.

the expander is designed to move brass irregularities to the outside of the case neck so having some runout on the necks isn’t completely abnormal....but I would agree that .004 or more isn’t necessarily good either.

any die I use with an expander ball I make sure I either polish or lube really well with imperial wax every couple of rounds. You’ll feel the difference when the expander comes out with more friction than when there is adequate lube.

I do not have any fired cases atm.

I did resize about 5 new Winchester cases without the expander ball in. The outside neck concentricity was from .0015 to .008.
The ones (2 of 5) that had low run out also had low run out after I seated a bullet. About .002 to .008 on the seated rounds.

Is it the brass that's the problem. Have I been duped by Winshitty?
Maybe this is why you guys buy Lapua or Nosler?

 

[SPAK]

If you have a ball micrometer measure the brass neck thickness in 2-4 places per piece of brass’s measure 10 cases. Anything over .002 I usually cull.

to clarify.... have you shot any of these rounds? Maybe I’m just not that good of a shooter but I’ve not seen any issues with runout TIR of .005” or less....

in fact I’ve shot some tiny groups in the .2s and .1s with brand new turned 6.5 saum brass that had loaded round TIR of .010” or more.....

How does your case sizing feel? It should be smooth with no hang ups. If you’re gdtting friction anywhere I’d try more lube or imperial wax.

id shoot some and start measuring from fired cases and go from there...

 

[PaC1776]

to clarify.... have you shot any of these rounds?

How does your case sizing feel?

These are unfired factory new cases. I measured with the mic and most are .012-0.13 fairly consistently.
Sizing feels pretty good once I started lubing the case mouths.

Do you think the cases will "iron out" after firing them and produce less run out?

 

[SPAK]

Yes....

if these are not fired, I would fire them first. Virgin brass alwasys seems to have more runout than fired brass.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

You could
1: polish the ball expander
2: lube the inside of the neck
3: go to a mandrel type expander (I'd still lube the insides of the necks, or get a titanium nitride coated mandrel, or carbide mandrel if you don't want to lube the insides of the necks.

have you removed the ball expander and just sized the brass, then check runout? It should be zero unless your press/die set up is causing the issue.

get a gauge that measures runout on the thickness of the necks. If the necks aren't concentric themselves (thicker on one side than the other), you'll have issues when you size the inside of the mouth with the ball or mandrel.

Additionally, you can put a 7/8" rubber o-ring under the sizing die to let it "float" and also loosen up the ball expander so it also "floats" and doesn't pull the neck off to one side or the other.

some people also remove the metal clip that holds the shell holder in place, and replace it with a rubber o-ring around the outside of it to hold it in place, but allow the shell holder to "float" and center itself to the die.

Hope this helps.

Interesting solutions for a CO-AX...

 

[Mad_Charlie]

How and why are you using Redding shell holders with a co-ax?

There is adapter available to do this.

 

[Horns8491]

Right I forgot you can do the adapter thing,which never made sense to me. The shell holder jaws are one of the best thing about the co-ax. But OP said he’s actually using a Lee.

BTW PAC have you sized any w the FL die on the co-ax without the expander ball?

 

[mdmp5]

Why not just try one thing at a time, and just take out the expander first? Btw, 333 seems awfully small for a loaded round. Almost every piece of 308 brass I’ve ever used, I’ve only had to size down to about 335

 

[BurnOut]

FWIW, I am in the process of moving towards a multi-step resizing process after doing a fair amount of reading about it... it'll take a little more time, but shouldn't be too bad.

Instead of using the (Forster) FL sizing die to decap, bump the shoulder, set the case mouth OD, and set the case mouth ID all in one up-and-down cycle of the press, I am moving to a (Lee) universal decapper, and 21st Century expander mandrels. The new process will be to decap with the Lee, run the case through the Forster FL sizing die (with the stem removed) to bump the shoulder, set the case taper, and set the case mouth OD, then use the expander die/mandrel to set the case mouth ID.

The thinking is that by isolating these steps, you reduce the influence that each step has on the others. Additionally, while this method will involve a bit more work, it's not at all expensive to implement; the Lee die is something like $15, and the 21st Century die body is $35, with the mandrels being $19/ea for each caliber you want (for the TiN mandrels); remember that the expander mandrels are caliber, rather than cartridge, specific... so whether you're shooting 300 BLK, .308, 30-06, or 300 WM, you use the same mandrel/die body.

 

[Sheldon N]

I do not have any fired cases atm.

I did resize about 5 new Winchester cases without the expander ball in. The outside neck concentricity was from .0015 to .008.
The ones (2 of 5) that had low run out also had low run out after I seated a bullet. About .002 to .008 on the seated rounds.

Is it the brass that's the problem. Have I been duped by Winshitty?
Maybe this is why you guys buy Lapua or Nosler?

To echo what was stated above, don't worry about runout now. Shoot the brass then it should be nice and straight with low runout. At that point start checking each step in your process to see if it is adding any runout to the cases. You probably don't need to change anything in your equipment at all, unless you find that the expander ball is adding runout.

 

[Sheldon N]

FWIW, I am in the process of moving towards a multi-step resizing process after doing a fair amount of reading about it... it'll take a little more time, but shouldn't be too bad.

Next step.... Dillon 550. Then it doesn't take any more time at all.

 

[Horns8491]

I'm on the same program as BurnOut, except that I get the Forster FL die honed out so that it only sizes the interior diameter of the neck .003" smaller than bullet diameter, then use the 21st century expander mandrel to widen it by .001", resulting in a perfect two thou of neck tension.

OP: you have the mac daddy single stage press (co-ax). It is known to be capable of producing ammo with super low runout due to the self centering of the dies. Not that you can't get good ammo with a Lee, but it seems weird to me that you are using a Lee press, getting a bunch of runout, and you have a co-ax sitting there unused on your bench.

 

[padom]

Youre getting all worked up over nothing. I have done extensive testing with many types of virgin brass including lapua. They will all have the runout you are seeing on virgin brass. You need to shoot them in your rifle then FL size them, setting the die up to just push the shoulders back .001-.003 depending on semi auto or bolt gun. I promise you that you will have .001 or less runout when you size that 1x brass if you do it on the Co-Ax.

The Forster FL sizing die provides some of the least runout of all the dies out there. Trust me, Ive had them all and tested them all. I get max .001 and typically .0005 runout using a Forster FL sizing die. Their high expander ball is the reason for such little runout.

Go shoot that brass to fireform it then you will see. None of us do load development or testing with virgin brass, we fireform it to our chambers than start all of that.

 

[SPAK]

Youre getting all worked up over nothing. I have done extensive testing with many types of virgin brass including lapua. They will all have the runout you are seeing on virgin brass. You need to shoot them in your rifle then FL size them, setting the die up to just push the shoulders back .001-.003 depending on semi auto or bolt gun. I promise you that you will have .001 or less runout when you size that 1x brass if you do it on the Co-Ax.

The Forster FL sizing die provides some of the least runout of all the dies out there. Trust me, Ive had them all and tested them all. I get max .001 and typically .0005 runout using a Forster FL sizing die. Their high expander ball is the reason for such little runout.

Go shoot that brass to fireform it then you will see. None of us do load development or testing with virgin brass, we fireform it to our chambers than start all of that.

This.....

 

[918v]

Pac1776:

Get a Lee collet neck die and neck size your fired brass before FL sizing in your Forster die. Get rid of the expander ball and get a neck expander die. I like Sinclair but anything with an expander mandrel will work. Dump your lube and get Imperial sizing wax for the outside and powdered graphite for the inside. Your runout will be nothing.

The more you size by extrusion the more your runout will be. The harder your bullet seating effort the greater your runout. The harder the neck the greater your runout. You need to find a happy balance between neck hardness and neck tension, a sweet spot where you have adequate grip on the bullet.