F T/R Competition Need help with possible fliers !

[Savage Mark]

So went with Buddy today to practice at 300 yards . As u can see I shot a 200-15x on the target which should put me close to 1st place in a match. So I’m pretty happy . On the other hand my buddy is concentrating on my fliers . I think he’s asking for too much out of me and my gun . I don’t see many people keeping everything in the 10 ring . I’ve only shot one match (500) yard , 394-20x. It would have been much better if I could have seen I was shooting a little high . Anyway , opinions please ? I think he’s asking for perfection . What do u guys think ?

Thx

Mark

 

[memilanuk]

Could be a number of things... ammo, lighting, scope parallax, etc. but I'd probably look at shooter position first. Shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, that sort of thing.

 

[Savage Mark]

Could be a number of things... ammo, lighting, scope parallax, etc. but I'd probably look at shooter position first. Shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, that sort of thing.

Thank u . Shooting free recoil so there is no shoulder or cheek pressure .

 

[Codiekfx400]

I would say if his groups are better than yours listen up. If his are worse than yours well he doesn’t have much to say imho.

 

[Savage Mark]

I would say if his groups are better than yours listen up. If his are worse than yours well he doesn’t have much to say imho.

I agree ! If I could get him to shoot more than 5 shots maybe that would help . Lol

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I’m not familiar with this how big is the 10 ring looks like 6” but could be the photo

 

[memilanuk]

Thank u . Shooting free recoil so there is no shoulder or cheek pressure .

That doesn't mean there aren't any gun handling issues, just that they are more subtle and a lot harder to nail down. More in the return of the gun to position after every shot, little stuff like that.

I don't shoot much 'true' free recoil, mainly because I don't have the setup for it - and a .308 with 200s isn't really FR friendly either.

If you really don't think it's position related, then you're back to conditions, etc. Lighting changes during the string (sun going behind a cloud, or vice versa) can do that, as can wind shifts (direction). Mirage can absolutely screw with you like that, too. Speaking of which... you *are* using a mirage shield, right?

 

[Savage Mark]

I’m not familiar with this how big is the 10 ring looks like 6” but could be the photo

10 ring is a hair under 3”

 

[Savage Mark]

That doesn't mean there aren't any gun handling issues, just that they are more subtle and a lot harder to nail down. More in the return of the gun to position after every shot, little stuff like that.

I don't shoot much 'true' free recoil, mainly because I don't have the setup for it - and a .308 with 200s isn't really FR friendly either.

If you really don't think it's position related, then you're back to conditions, etc. Lighting changes during the string (sun going behind a cloud, or vice versa) can do that, as can wind shifts (direction). Mirage can absolutely screw with you like that, too. Speaking of which... you *are* using a mirage shield, right?

Actually when I shot that string the mirage shield was not attached .

 

[memilanuk]

Actually when I shot that string the mirage shield was not attached .

Might want to try it *with* the mirage shield next time, especially with a 20 shot string... just sayin'...

 

[Savage Mark]

Might want to try it *with* the mirage shield next time, especially with a 20 shot string... just sayin'...

You’re 100% right ! Thx

 

[DanSavage]

I'm pretty sure I shot with you at the 500 yard line. Great shooting by the way. I'm not sure which guy you were but I seem to get similar results on the target as you do with a 6BR. I don't have a great answer unfortunately lol, it's hard to tell when the possible fliers are sub moa. I have definitely noticed my accuracy is at its best after annealing and I have been able to pull off my share of 10X group's. When I see shots starting to stray, I anneal which is around 4-5 firings with my current 6BR brass.

 

[Savage Mark]

I'm pretty sure I shot with you at the 500 yard line. Great shooting by the way. I'm not sure which guy you were but I seem to get similar results on the target as you do with a 6BR. I don't have a great answer unfortunately lol, it's hard to tell when the possible fliers are sub moa. I have definitely noticed my accuracy is at its best after annealing and I have been able to pull off my share of 10X group's. When I see shots starting to stray, I anneal which is around 4-5 firings with my current 6BR brass.

Hi !

Thank you ! That was my very first match . Is your name Dan Wilson ? I checked the stats and the only guy named Dan is a Dan Wilson . I don’t have the equipment yet to anneal . Shot a 2.625 group at 500 today . All 20s . That was my 2nd group . Not sure what happened to first group i shot today . 2 9s. I put a fan on the table pointing at barrel for 2nd group and it really let me see a little better . Are u shooting in the next 500 at the end of the month ?

By the the way I’m Mark Harlost . Pleased to meet you !

 

[Savage Mark]

I'm pretty sure I shot with you at the 500 yard line. Great shooting by the way. I'm not sure which guy you were but I seem to get similar results on the target as you do with a 6BR. I don't have a great answer unfortunately lol, it's hard to tell when the possible fliers are sub moa. I have definitely noticed my accuracy is at its best after annealing and I have been able to pull off my share of 10X group's. When I see shots starting to stray, I anneal which is around 4-5 firings with my current 6BR brass.

I meant all 10s . Don’t know how i hit 20

 

[Savage Mark]

I'm pretty sure I shot with you at the 500 yard line. Great shooting by the way. I'm not sure which guy you were but I seem to get similar results on the target as you do with a 6BR. I don't have a great answer unfortunately lol, it's hard to tell when the possible fliers are sub moa. I have definitely noticed my accuracy is at its best after annealing and I have been able to pull off my share of 10X group's. When I see shots starting to stray, I anneal which is around 4-5 firings with my current 6BR brass.

How the hell do u see your bullet holes at 500 ? I was pretty much shooting blind and I have a 10-50 Sightron . I asked Tony about letting us use the shoot and see as a sighter and luckily he let us which helped me out tremendously .

 

[DanSavage]

Yes, I'm Dan Wilson, good to meet you Mark.

I can see my holes on the white sighter target very well, and of course the shoot and see's, but I have a hard time seeing them on the score target at all times. Sometimes I can though especially if it's out of the 10 ring. If its grouping in the 10 I can start to compensate to try to center it better. If I see a couple holes in the X I may slightly compensate and shoot very fast.lol

Keep doing what you're doing. You are up with the top level shooter's already so you are doing things right and very good.

I'm using a NF 8-32 NXS btw and I'm planning on making the next 500 yard match. It's a real challenge for sure.

 

[DanSavage]

Oh if there is decent mirage at 500 yards, then let me shoot the sighter then might as well put the blind fold on because I can't see shite.
I went to the first 500 match few years back and the score targets were black.lol
My last relay I nailed a 200-17X,,, just pure luck.

 

[Savage Mark]

That’s what happened to me . I could see I hit close to the bull on the shoot & see , so I just started shooting at the score target and couldn’t see a thing . Was surprised when Kyle came up to me and said nice shooting because I had no idea how I did . And I had a 199 . Lol . More sheer luck .

 

[Savage Mark]

Oh if there is decent mirage at 500 yards, then let me shoot the sighter then might as well put the blind fold on because I can't see shite.
I went to the first 500 match few years back and the score targets were black.lol
My last relay I nailed a 200-17X,,, just pure luck.

I used my iPhone and tablet to make a long range target cam and it worked great but I’m not sure if they would let me do that at a match . If they did scores would go up .

 

[DanSavage]

You'll have to show me how to do that app. I don't think there's anything wrong with technology when it works to your advantage, and then everybody will have to step it up.lol

In a good way it would make the 500 more enjoyable rather than just guessing and sending.

 

[Savage Mark]

You'll have to show me how to do that app. I don't think there's anything wrong with technology when it works to your advantage, and then everybody will have to step it up.lol

In a good way it would make the 500 more enjoyable rather than just guessing and sending.

I asked Kyle a while ago if I could use a target cam and he said he didn’t think so because not everyone has them . My response was not everybody has a 50 power scope either , but that’s allowed . He didn’t respond ! Im working on a different target cam now using a camcorder and wireless transmitter and receiver . With the cell phone app and table it uses a lot of data . The only issue I see is after they place the targets up , we pick bench numbers . Now u would have to go down and aim the camera at your target number . Im not sure they will let u go down there at that time .

 

[memilanuk]

If it was an NRA sanctioned event ie 'Approved' or 'Registered', then no. There are some specific rules about electronic communication devices on the line. Not saying they aren't a bit dated, but they are the current rules.

Given that y'all are using a decidedly non-regulation target, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's not NRA sanctioned, the scores don't count / aren't turned in... so it's up to the MD.

 

[buffalowinter]

It looks good to me. What is your gun capable of accuracy wise. What MOA size group does it shoot at 50yds and 100yds. You can't ask more from your gun, MOA wise, than it is capable of at 50 yds. All error...human, wind, etc., is magnified as the range increases. Accuracy wise,, your gun should be capable of cleaning a target with all X's. On the other hand, match wise, a 400-0X beats the hell out of 399-39x.

 

[Savage Mark]

It looks good to me. What is your gun capable of accuracy wise. What MOA size group does it shoot at 50yds and 100yds. You can't ask more from your gun, MOA wise, than it is capable of at 50 yds. All error...human, wind, etc., is magnified as the range increases. Accuracy wise,, your gun should be capable of cleaning a target with all X's. On the other hand, match wise, a 400-0X beats the hell out of 399-39x.View attachment 7092634

I have never shot it at 50 yards and only 1 time at 100 just to get a zero , so not really sure about short range accuracy .

 

[Savage Mark]

You'll have to show me how to do that app. I don't think there's anything wrong with technology when it works to your advantage, and then everybody will have to step it up.lol

In a good way it would make the 500 more enjoyable rather than just guessing and sending.

Have u ever shot 1000 yards with 6BR ? Mifflin County sportsman’s association has 1000 yard range . Im thinking of joining but it’s a 3hr drive for me .

 

[memilanuk]

You'll have to show me how to do that app. I don't think there's anything wrong with technology when it works to your advantage, and then everybody will have to step it up.lol

In a good way it would make the 500 more enjoyable rather than just guessing and sending.

There's a solution already available, relatively 'mature' as far as tech goes...

...the problem with cameras at distance is that eventually, you'll have one shot hole inside another shot hole, and there's no way to tell which one it was. Plus you still have to go down range and change targets every relay. With e-targets, you can off-set the acoustic zero say 1.5 moa, so the physical holes are high in the 9 ring, but everybody 'sees' their shots in the X-ring. Then you can shoot literally all day, with multiple shooters pounding the X-ring, and never have to go down and change anything.

Might be a very good investment for your club - with that, and some *black* target centers, they might be able to hold NRA matches

 

[Savage Mark]

There's a solution already available, relatively 'mature' as far as tech goes...

...the problem with cameras at distance is that eventually, you'll have one shot hole inside another shot hole, and there's no way to tell which one it was. Plus you still have to go down range and change targets every relay. With e-targets, you can off-set the acoustic zero say 1.5 moa, so the physical holes are high in the 9 ring, but everybody 'sees' their shots in the X-ring. Then you can shoot literally all day, with multiple shooters pounding the X-ring, and never have to go down and change anything.

Might be a very good investment for your club - with that, and some *black* target centers, they might be able to hold NRA matches

Sounds like a great idea . Problem is , approx . $750 per target . We are just a small club and I don’t think they would go for that !

 

[memilanuk]

What do the entry fees cost? How much 'profit margin' are they making now? Bump that $5-10 for tech/convenience, hold a few extra matches, possibly even draw some more - especially if you start holding NRA sanctioned matches... those targets will not be as 'expensive' as you think.

 

[memilanuk]

Also... a lot of 'small clubs' get started with e-targets when members start buying their own for personal practice - $800 is about half what a *good* spotting scope runs... then they start bringing them to 'group' practices... next thing you know, the club buys a few more, and they start using them for matches. Eventually the club can purchase additional units to cover the ones the members 'donated' the use of.

 

[_Raining]

You are not really getting a very accurate F Class experience, you should have some way of at least seeing where your last shot hit (Pits with scoring discs or electronic targets). I don't think many people who shoot F Class could do well just guessing where their shots land.

Being concerned about your "fliers" doesn't help much, is he giving you tips to help reduce them?

What do your 100 yard groups look like?

What is your rifle/rest setup?

It isn't easy keeping 20 shots close together.

 

[Savage Mark]

You are not really getting a very accurate F Class experience, you should have some way of at least seeing where your last shot hit (Pits with scoring discs or electronic targets). I don't think many people who shoot F Class could do well just guessing where their shots land.

Being concerned about your "fliers" doesn't help much, is he giving you tips to help reduce them?

What do your 100 yard groups look like?

What is your rifle/rest setup?

It isn't easy keeping 20 shots close together.

You’re right , it’s tough shooting blind . I think a lot of luck went into my 394 -20x. Haven’t shot 100 but I think one time and maybe .25-.375 groups . I use a bald eagle cast iron slingshot rest with Protektor rear bag . Savage F class
Rifle with 30” Shilen Bull .

 

[Savage Mark]

You are not really getting a very accurate F Class experience, you should have some way of at least seeing where your last shot hit (Pits with scoring discs or electronic targets). I don't think many people who shoot F Class could do well just guessing where their shots land.

Being concerned about your "fliers" doesn't help much, is he giving you tips to help reduce them?

What do your 100 yard groups look like?

What is your rifle/rest setup?

It isn't easy keeping 20 shots close together.

Im going to give something new a try this Saturday . Digiscoping ! You take your 20-60 spotting scope , attach your iPhone , and use your phone camera magnification also . Im really hoping this works . We will see !

 

[_Raining]

Im going to give something new a try this Saturday . Digiscoping ! You take your 20-60 spotting scope , attach your iPhone , and use your phone camera magnification also . Im really hoping this works . We will see !

It is worth a shot but you will probably just end up magnifying a distorted image. At least you will have a neat setup for recording videos for your friends or youtube or somehting like that.

 

[Savage Mark]

It is worth a shot but you will probably just end up magnifying a distorted image. At least you will have a neat setup for recording videos for your friends or youtube or somehting like that.

You were right about distorted ! Back to the drawing board . Think I might just say screw the $500 spotting scope and use my 10-50 . They let us use the shoot and see for sighters so I guess I’ll just shoot a sighter like every 5 rounds .

 

[Savage Mark]

You'll have to show me how to do that app. I don't think there's anything wrong with technology when it works to your advantage, and then everybody will have to step it up.lol

In a good way it would make the 500 more enjoyable rather than just guessing and sending.

Hi Dan !
How are u ? Have u been practicing ? I went yesterday and was pretty happy . Shot 2 groups at 500 (a little windy) that we’re just a hair under 2 inches . Im really trying to get good at this . I go every weekend . Even through winter ! Lol (Burrrrr)

 

[DanSavage]

I'm doing pretty good, no unfortunately I don't get time to practice. If I change a load or scope or barrel I sight back in at the farm, but that's it. We should get are deer damage permits soon, so I'll get some LR shooting in pretty soon.lol

 

[DanSavage]

I'm going to the 300 yard match on Saturday. I decided not to waste any more rounds at 500.

 

[Savage Mark]

I'm going to the 300 yard match on Saturday. I decided not to waste any more rounds at 500.

I didn’t shoot the 500 either . It’s too damn early for me ! Lol . But I understand completely about wasting rounds . I heard high score was 389 . It was pretty windy . I shot after the match and it was still pretty windy .

 

[Savage Mark]

I'm going to the 300 yard match on Saturday. I decided not to waste any more rounds at 500.

 

[Savage Mark]

Wanted to let u know when u mentioned annealing after 4-5 cycles , guess what happened ? Lol ! My neck tension went to hell . Guess I’ll be buying a torch tomorrow . I wouldn’t have known about it if u didn’t mention it . Definitely saw an accuracy reduction ! Thanks for that ! Good luck Saturday !

 

[DanSavage]

Thanks, I went today with my brass freshly annealed and had used the body die to bump the headspace back so accuracy should improve the next few matches now that the headspace is 0 again.
I ended up getting 1st place with a clean 400-33x.
It sure is nice to be able to see the bullet holes nicely.

 

[Savage Mark]

Thanks, I went today with my brass freshly annealed and had used the body die to bump the headspace back so accuracy should improve the next few matches now that the headspace is 0 again.
I ended up getting 1st place with a clean 400-33x.
It sure is nice to be able to see the bullet holes nicely.

Congratulations !