Need help zeroing in on what I'm doing wrong when resizing...

[dogmilk]

I'll start off by saying I am new to the forum, new to long range shooting, and VERY new to reloading (produced my first batch of 6.5 Creedmoor less than a month ago.)

Relevant pieces of my current setup that I used to process a bunch of brass yesterday:
Redding Big Boss II w/ Hornady LnL "quick change" adapters
Lee Precision universal sizing die
Hornady Match seating die w/ Microjust, ELDx stem. (I also own the FL die, but have not purchased neck bushings.)
Redding Imperial sizing wax for the body, OneShot for the insides of the necks
Hornady 6.5CM case gauge

Redding FL sizing die (base model)
Hornady Custom FL die (sent back to Amazon)

Now I'll describe the issue I am running into...

Some of my brass, after being put through sizing dies will get hung up in the case gauge. I will wind up with between 1mm and 5mm poking up! While I am running the brass in and out (with any of the dies I have used over the past several weeks) I notice that I have considerable resistance going in, and coming out. (Of course this is with a squeaky clean gauge, and I've wiped lube off of the brass.)

I did some experimenting, found that when I remove the expander I have a much greater success rate.

I tried moving the expander back a ways with my new Redding die, this made no difference.

Then I tried moving the expander "rod" back in my Lee Precision die - - This did the trick! I had a MUCH better success rate. Brass requires an average amount of force on the way in, then there's maybe a tiny bit on the way out. Out of about six hundred pieces that I processed yesterday, I ended up with ~15 that I could not get to drop into and out of my gauge checker.

Photo is of one of the more extreme cases of "bulge." Most of the throw-backs that I ran into yesterday had about 1-2mm of case head sticking up. I think the reading on my micrometer is maybe the widest point... but I might be wrong... (that is actually in spec??)



Now that I am typing this all out in one place, this sounds like inadequate lubrication - - I am hand-lubing the bodies of the cases w/ the Redding Imperial wax, and using two passes of 45* OneShot for the insides... If there's not enough lubrication, I might be mushrooming my cases out near the base.

What do you all think?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

It is acting like an H&H case bulging in the web area from firing the round. Measure a fired case with an unfired case. Or check with the gage before sizing. Also, try a nylon bore brush with lube for the necks. You shouldn't have to lube the outside of every case. Lube a case, size it, and don't lube another until it starts to get a little stiff then repeat the process. Use brake cleaner to flush out your dies.

 

[dogmilk]

I'm semi auto unfortunately.

I took one of these "bulged" cases and seated a bullet in it, no primer. Put it in a mag, it cycled in and out without any issue. The case looked a little scuffed up.

I'll try this experiment again tonight and be more scientific about it, make a dummy round with a good case and another w/ a bad... maybe separate upper and lower and try putting it into place by hand, see if I can observe any difference.

I have some friends whose gauges I can try out, I think one of them has a Lyman gauge, another has the same Hornady I'm using.

 

[dogmilk]

How are you hosting the pics? Try using the built in photo uploader

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The first thing I'd do is stop using that cause gauge. The only cause gauge that matters is your chamber. Get yourself a set of hornady headspace comparators and use them to make sure you're bumping the shoulders just enough.

I would also ditch that Lee sizing die, you're just asking for trouble. The Redding sizer is a much safer bet. I'd also get a sinclair mandrel die and run the neck mandrel in a separate process.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

The safest thing he had is the Lee die.

 

[Milo 2.5]

The first thing I'd do is stop using that cause gauge. The only cause gauge that matters is your chamber. Get yourself a set of hornady headspace comparators and use them to make sure you're bumping the shoulders just enough.

I would also ditch that Lee sizing die, you're just asking for trouble. The Redding sizer is a much safer bet. I'd also get a sinclair mandrel die and run the neck mandrel in a separate process.

The guy is basically turning his brass into belted cases and this is your answer?

OP, you need to measure a new case, and a fired case just above the belt you created when sizing. Then, try your best to measure the mouth of your die. Your chamber or your die is out of spec. You're basically rolling brass.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Yes, because if he expands the necks in a separate step and only bumps the brass as far as needed then this won't happen.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Yes, because if he expands the necks in a separate step and only bumps the brass as far as needed then this won't happen.

I'm pretty sure with the constriction he is getting on the body of his brass, his bump numbers were altered by a long ways.

 

[flyright]

What Milo said...

 

[dogmilk]

Sorry I haven't followed up (and I never made those dummy rounds with my mushroomed cases, to test in my gun.)

This is all once-fired Prime and Hornady brass, fired and collected by me, with either my old Ruger Precision 6.5, or my AR10.

The Redding FL sizer was exhibiting the same high-resistance on the up and down strokes that I saw with the previous Hornady Custom die. Totally correct observation about the Lee die, alignment of the expander is more solid because it's a long, tapered rod rather than a wobbly nub.

There's some terminology I am seeing here that is throwing me off... So... What aspect of the adjustment and/or sizing process am I dicking up? Based on feedback from a friend with the same Redding FL die, same one he's used for 6.5 since day one... he's following the instructions, setting his expander slightly short of the mouth, slamming his 6.5 in, pulling it out... Applying a small amount of Forster lube to the body by hand, none on the inside of the neck, and he doesn't have this issue. Critical detail - - he uses L.E. Wilson case gauges.

How would I go about bumping the shoulders less, (to prevent unnecessary mushrooming/belting?) Depth of the die in my press? I just follow YouTube and adjust til its contacting my case holder, plus 1/4 to 1/2.

 

[spife7980]

How would I go about bumping the shoulders less, (to prevent unnecessary mushrooming/belting?) Depth of the die in my press? I just follow YouTube and adjust til its contacting my case holder, plus 1/4 to 1/2.

Get some actual measuring tools.

Get a pair of calipers. The cheap harbor freight/hornadys for 15-25 bucks are alright if you are super cash strapped. The igauging orgins are much better at 40-60 bucks.
Calipers will allow you to actually measure something accurately instead of guessing with those drop gauges. The problem with the drop gauges is that you only know when all dimensions meet the minimum dimension (over working). If the base is too wide you could size the shoulders back waaaaayyyy further than necessary until the tapered case body gets squeezed enough at the bottom and be none the wiser.

Take that new caliper and measure the diameter of the case body where its bulging .2" above the case head. Compare the virgin, fired and sized diameters to see how much expansion and subsequent sizing is happening to the case. Then do it for the shoulder/body transition.

Next, get a hornady or sinclair head space comparator. It consists of the red body and then the long aluminum bushing. The aluminum bushing will serve as a datum and allow you to measure your distance from the case head to a consistent point on the shoulders. Doing it this way allows you to figure out how much your virgin cases expanded lengthwise into fired cases and then how far your fired cases are getting sized back down.

In this pic you can see that he has the tools on his calipers to measure the shoulders.

In this diagram you can see the point that is actually getting measured on this 308 case.

Here are a couple videos
This first is basically the tools in use for shoulder measuring.


This second shows where cie/chambers dont match but offers some insight into the sizing of the base of a case.



If you really think its the expander bottoming out before you can get the case low enough into the die then screw it up higher or just remove it entirely and worry about the neck once youve figured out your body issues. Adjusting it to the manufactures recommended location never fails though.
Per Redding "The Decapping Rod Assembly should be adjusted so that the decapping pin protrudes from the bottom of the Die approximately 3/16 of an inch (about the thickness of two Nickels). "

 

[dogmilk]

I have some Mitutoyo calipers, and Hornady "oal" adapters, no headspace gauge though I am aware they exist. Anything I can do shorter term before getting the headspace kit? I have measured the belting, you can see in my photo in the OP i think the widest point is actually still within spec which is perplexing. (but maybe its some other part of the case thats way off, that i am not easily able to measure.)

 

[dogmilk]

Good info, thank you

 

[spife7980]

You can use a 9 (.380") or 40 cal pistol case in the interim as a head space bushing. .375 & .400 bushings roughly correspond with a 9 and 40

Fill in these dimensions.

-------------------------Virgin-------Fired---------Sized
Base diam
Shoulder diam
Shoulder length

 

[dogmilk]

So, say I do find out that I'm adjusting the shoulders excessively (or not enough,) how would I tweak that out? Or do I need to use a different FL die (or split sizing into two separate dies as somebody said above?)

 

[spife7980]

If you’re sizing the shoulders too far down then you simply screw the die out. If you’re not sizing enough you just screw it in deeper.

Ignore the 1/2 or 1/4 turn stuff from the instructions, do what your tools tell you is required.

 

[dogmilk]

I really wish I had discovered this sooner. That was always the most common, "universal" piece of advice I saw in every YouTube video. "touch the brass holder, then go another 1/4," didn't even think to question it.

I should probably just shitcan the ~20 pieces I mushroomed (or belted) out then, there probably isn't any hope of bringing those back, if this is user error and not an equipment issue.

 

[spife7980]

Depends on how far they got sized. Might be good, might not. Measureing will tell you though if they have been excessively sized or not.

Those instructions make it so that every single piece that gets sized that way will chamber. Unfortunately that means that you way over work it and loose its... formedness (is that a word?) of your chamber. It might work for a few sizing cycles but it will drastically reduce the number of firings you can get out of it before case failure and leads to inconsistency.

 

[dogmilk]

Necrobumping here... Check this out.

Hornady gauge is utter trash. Checked my entire bag of "f'ed brass" in this Wilson gauge and it's all perfectly fine.

I am so pissed! I wasted a lot of money, stressed myself out trying to get my brass to work in this POS!!

(I used two pieces of brass just for the sake of this photo... The one sitting nicely in the Wilson hangs up in the Hornady, and vice versa.)

 

[Milo 2.5]

Necrobumping here... Check this out.View attachment 6937232

Hornady gauge is utter trash. Checked my entire bag of "f'ed brass" in this Wilson gauge and it's all perfectly fine.

I am so pissed! I wasted a lot of money, stressed myself out trying to get my brass to work in this POS!!

(I used two pieces of brass just for the sake of this photo... The one sitting nicely in the Wilson hangs up in the Hornady, and vice versa.)

I hate to say this, but you wasted good money on either gauge, they are designed for saami spec, with the Hornady being under spec some. Truthfully, if your chamber was reamed with a reamer that has done a shit ton of chambers, maybe even sharpened, your chamber may still be tighter, rendering these things useless. A caliper or a mic is your friend, like spife said, measure new, fired and sized, it all tells a story. I've loaded for almost 35yrs sometimes forego measuring, a couple of really had our asses handed to us on a 6 creed earlier this yr when it was right there for the picking.
Throw in a slightly out of spec die, can be a tough call too, and it seems to happen more and more these days.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Don't sweat the small stuff. I have those same gauges as well and now they are paper weights.

 

[spife7980]

But you still don’t know the dimension of what aspect is out of spec or the difference between the two other than this arbitrary comparison. The gauges are next to useless. They can still weigh down paper as culpuppy said

 

[TheGerman]

Don't sweat the small stuff. I have those same gauges as well and now they are paper weights.

We ALL have some of those gauges.

The only question is, how long has it been since you last used one?

 

[supercorndogs]

I dont. I went straight from CHS to comparators.

 

[dogmilk]

finally got a headspace comparator kit... I zeroed on a good, resized case that sits correctly in the case gauge... Bad cases that poke up are all over by about this much.