Need Some Advice on .223

[Jon Turner]

Target on left is pre-free floating.
Target on right is post-free float.
Pic of "tube" where I do my zero wind testing at 100 yds.
Rifle is a Windham 20" govt A4 model, 1/7, chrome lined barrel.

Guys, I shoot xtc and mr matches. I've shot the M1 rifle for 40 + years. I got my first-ever AR15 two years ago because the M1 isn't very competitive any more and I was tired of being in the cellar before I even got to the matches (had fun any way).
I've been doing load work ups for a while. The target on the left is typical of what I was getting at 100 yds. I put a CLE service rifle free floated handguard on it a few weeks ago, hoping to reduce the group size. The target on the right is the post free floating. They're almost identical, much to my chagrin. At least it isn't any worse, and I can sling up tight at the comps now.

Any way, I'm wondering if I just haven't found the "magic combo" of components yet, or if I just got a crappy barrel and am just going to have to live with it. These are SR1 targets and the 10 ring is 3" for all intents and purposes. I was under the impression that even a mediocre rifle should be able to do 1.5-2" groups out of the box.
I can't figure out what I am or am not doing/seeing here. Any help would be appreciated. What's your favorite load? Right now I'm trying to get the Hornady 75 gr BTHP match bullets to work. At this point, I'd be ecstatic with a 1.5" group.
And yes, the rifle is fully supported front and back for testing. I'm using an optic (Bushnell 1-4x24 AR series).

Thanks,
Jon

 

[Jon Turner]

Target on left is pre-free floating.
Target on right is post-free float.
Pic of "tube" where I do my zero wind testing at 100 yds.
Rifle is a Windham 20" govt A4 model, 1/7, chrome lined barrel.

Guys, I shoot xtc and mr matches. I've shot the M1 rifle for 40 + years. I got my first-ever AR15 two years ago because the M1 isn't very competitive any more and I was tired of being in the cellar before I even got to the matches (had fun any way).
I've been doing load work ups for a while. The target on the left is typical of what I was getting at 100 yds. I put a CLE service rifle free floated handguard on it a few weeks ago, hoping to reduce the group size. The target on the right is the post free floating. They're almost identical, much to my chagrin. At least it isn't any worse, and I can sling up tight at the comps now.

Any way, I'm wondering if I just haven't found the "magic combo" of components yet, or if I just got a crappy barrel and am just going to have to live with it. These are SR1 targets and the 10 ring is 3" for all intents and purposes. I was under the impression that even a mediocre rifle should be able to do 1.5-2" groups out of the box.
I can't figure out what I am or am not doing/seeing here. Any help would be appreciated. What's your favorite load? Right now I'm trying to get the Hornady 75 gr BTHP match bullets to work. At this point, I'd be ecstatic with a 1.5" group.
And yes, the rifle is fully supported front and back for testing. I'm using an optic (Bushnell 1-4x24 AR series).

Thanks,
Jon

Just so you know it's not the trigger squeezer, this is a 100 yd target I shot with my US Springfield M1922M1.

Jon

 

[spamassassin]

It might just hate that ammo. Try a different <anything> and see if it finds something it likes. I've never had a .223 I couldn't make shoot the 75gr BTHP's from Hornady into tiny groups. Hopefully you have similar luck. Chrome lining probably isn't helping you but you should be able to do better than what you're getting.

 

[John?]

Mr Turner

Your results are similar to my experience. Floating the barrel doesn’t help accuracy from the bench. It does reduce sling induced troubles.

Back in the late 90s I switched to the AR for service rifle (from a CMP Garand). My rifle was a bone stock Colt A2 HBAR. It shot OK, but not great. Sent it to Frank at CLE for better sights and free float that met the rules back in the stone age. My scores improved a bit but not dramatically. After a couple seasons I put on a White Oak made barrel. Much better groups. A well made barrel was worth the money to me.

I’m not shooting service rifle these days. Not sure what the equipment rules allow beyond optical sighting.

-john

 

[Kadams1563]

Well it’s a windham weaponry rifle. They are pretty much on the low end of quality IMO.

I’d look at getting it rebarreled but one of the good AR smiths with a much better quality barrel. I bet your same
Ammunition your struggling with now will shrink half that size.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Different powder, then different bullet before you yank the barrel. Some combos just don’t jive. I have had stellar luck with the 52 flat base bullets(barts, Berger, or sierra in that order), or the 53 vmax if you want a boat tail.

 

[semperfireloading]

Try some N140, start around 24 grains. 2.255 OAL. Should be large improvement. Go up past 24.5 until it groups

 

[Doom]

If the barrel was not free floated and now is then the harmonics will likely be different and the rifle would need a new load workup. Looking at your targets I believe if you calculated the mean radius and the x/y dispersion the righthand target would show greater vertical dispersion.

 

[tomme boy]

I could never get the 68 or 75gr hornady bullets to shoot in 7 different gas and bolt guns. Best was about 1.25" Switched to vmax and same guns all shoot under 1" One shoots into the 0.2"s with the 60gr.

Switch bullets

 

[Haney]

How many loads have you worked up for it so far ? What powders ? Your groups did not change much by floating the barrel so that variable is out . I have AR 15s that took trying at least 5 different bullets before I could get them to shoot 1"-1.5" groups . I would try some Sierra Match Kings . If you can't get them to shoot I would then be looking at the rifle .

 

[Doom]

I haven't come across many AR shooters using the 75 HPBT at our range. Most of the guys find something with 68, 69, or 77gr to work best. I have heard that some have problems with the 68 Hornady.

If you are having this much trouble then I would recommend backing off the reloading for a moment and try some factory Match style ammunition. Federal Gold Medal Match in 69 and 77 gr flavors would be my choice to test the rifle.

 

[Molon]

Rifle is a Windham 20" govt A4 model, 1/7, chrome lined barrel.

A NATO chambered, government profile barrel is not the ideal barrel for a Service Rifle match. That being said, a quality NATO chambered 20” government profile barrel should be shooting better than what you’re getting.

While you will see people claim that they get 0.25 MOA accuracy with these types of barrels, here’s a realistic example of what a cream of the crop barrel in that category has done with my match grade hand-loads fired at 100 yards from the bench; six 10-shot groups fired in a row from a free-floated 20” Colt barrel using a scope had an average 10-shot group extreme spread of 1.35”. The smallest 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.09”. A 30-shot composite group had a mean radius of 0.42”.

As for the Hornady 75 grain OTM bullet, factory loaded ammunition using this bullet can shoot well from an AR-15. Naturally, hand-loads with the Hornady 75 grain OTM can do even better.

Black Hills . . .

Hornady . . .

Reloading For The AR-15: Hornady 75 Grain BTHP

Hornady produces three different versions of their 75 grain open-tip-match bullet in 22 caliber (0.224”). For this article, we’ll be looking at the projectile that is colloquially referred to as the “T1”.

The T1 is available as a reloading component, with a product number of #2279 for the 100 count boxes. It’s also available in 600 and 4000 count boxes.

I use the Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullet to load match-grade hand-loads for my semi-automatic AR-15s chambered in 5.56mm/223 Remington. According to Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets by Bryan Litz, the Hornady 75 grain BTHP has an average G1 ballistic coefficient of 0.356 and an average G7 ballistic coefficient of 0.183.

The lot of T1 projectiles used for this article have a nominal length of 0.988” and I load them to a nominal COAL of 2.245”. When fired from a Colt SOCOM barrel with a 5.56mm NATO chamber, this COAL will create a jump to the lands of 178 thousandths of an inch. When fired from a Larue Stealth barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber, this COAL will create a jump to the lands of 115 thousandths of an inch and when fired from a Krieger barrel with a 223 Remington chamber, this COAL will create a jump to the lands of 78 thousandths of an inch.

The jump to the lands figures stated above where obtained using a Sinclair bullet seating depth gauge and a Forster 223 Remington 1.4636” head-space gauge. These figures are contingent upon a variety of variables, such as the particular chamber reamer that was used for your barrel, the number of rounds that have been fired through your barrel when the measurement is obtained, the particular lot of bullets used and whether you use a virgin case, a fired case, a resized case or a head-space gauge to obtain this measurement.

WARNING!
Reloading is an inherently dangerous activity. The information provided here is for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be used for the actual loading of ammunition by the reader. No warranty, guarantee or assurance that these loads are safe is stated, suggested or implied nor should any be inferred. Usage of this information for the actual loading of ammunition may result in malfunctions, damage and destruction of property and grave injury or death to beings human in nature or otherwise. Don't even view this information in the presence of children or small animals.




For this hand-load of the Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullet, I use virgin Lake City brass that has been weight-sorted, match-prepped and neck-sized. The cases are primed with Federal GM205M primers and charged with VihtaVuori N140 powder and as mentioned above, the T1 projectile is seated to a COAL of 2.245”. This process is conducted in a semi-progressive manner on a Dillon XL-650 press using a Pact Digital electronic powder dispenser and scale to dispense a powder charge of 24.1 grains of the VihtaVuori N140.

When chronographed from a 20” Colt A2 barrel, a 10-shot string of this hand-load fired over an Oehler 35P produced a muzzle velocity of 2638 FPS with a standard deviation of 4 FPS and a coefficient of variation of 0.15%. (The muzzle velocity was calculated from the instrumental velocity using Oehler Ballistic Explorer.) A 10-shot group fired from one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s, at distance of 100 yards using my bench-rest set-up, had an extreme spread of 0.526 MOA.

No canines were harmed during the testing of this ammunition.

 

[Jon Turner]

Thanks Molon.
If I could get the groups down to 1.5-2 inches I'd be ecstatic. I can always hope. My load development has not ended--YET.