Need some help with 22LR build.

[Belliger]

I am in the market for a very accurate 22 and there are just too many options and I was hoping to get some opinions. This would be for range use so a heavier weight would be better. I do not compete so I don't need to fit any regulations. I would like to have it on a bipod to shoot from prone position. I know this is more rifle then I need right now, but with the fact 22 barrels practically never wear out, I would like to buy something that I will not outgrow. I have never wished that I had bought something cheaper, the same cannot be said the other way around. Prices are all slightly rounded.

The CZ 455 PT looks like a good option. I like the manners stock. Though it does not come with a rear pillar so I would either have to do that myself or have it done (cost $???).
Rifle - $880 (I called CZ and they will be doing a production run this month)
Lilja barrel - $400
DIP Picatinny mount - $50
Timmy trigger - $100
Total: $1430

Clark makes a custom 77/22. I like that with this I would have an accuracy guarantee (1” @ 100, with their recommended ammo).
Rifle - $1245
Pillar Bedding - $150
Thumbhole Stock - $175
Total $1570

Clark also makes a 10/22 that has an accuracy guarantee (1” @ 100).
Action - $650
B&C thumbhole stock $200
Pillar Bedding - $150
Scope Base - $100
Kidd trigger - $275
Total - 1375

Kidd has been well spoken of, but I don't think they have an accuracy guarantee. I am okay with the wait time.
Barrel and action - $1000
Rear Tang - $75
B&C thumbhole stock - $225
Bipod Stud - $30
Total - $1330

I think that going the Sako route would be more expensive then having a short bolt throw is worth. I am pretty sure these are all very accurate rifles and the cost is close enough to the same that I cannot decide which route to go. So, can anyone help me out?

 

[BenY 2013]

Out of those 4 choices I think I (personally) would go with the CZ! I have shot the stock Precision Trainer vs a Clark 77/22. Even though the CZ was stock both guns showed very similar accuracy! The reason I prefer the CZ is the bolt is MUCH smoother to operate than the Clark. Just my 0.02

On another note I am starting a CZ build with very similar specs to the one you mentioned! Except I am thinking a short and threaded barrel on this build, may build a few of these guns. I currently shoot a CZ 452 Varmint and it shoots really well stock!

 

[rrflyer]

Thought of a 40XB?

 

[bunsen27]

If you want a very accurate rifle you can obtain quickly an Anschutz 64 MPR for $1100 is pretty hard to beat for cost and accuracy. A CZ 455 PT with a Lija barrel is certainly capable of equaling an out of the box Anz64 accuracy wise, and the Manner's stocks are superb. If you want something that's not readily available currently look towards the Win52 and Rem 40x markets. I have a penchant for the heavy target models and am fortunate enough to own both a B & D. I will put both of them ahead of my Anz64. I have no first hand experience with the Anz 54's, but they are supposed to be up there with the Win 52's. About the only cost savings you will see with rimfire over centerfire is in the cost ($$) per shot dependent on what ammo you feed it. Welcome to your newest addiction!

 

[ivanthesane]

If I were spending the ~ $1300 on a set up, I'd look at the Anchutz (as mentioned) as well as "the others" - Suhl, Rem 40x, Win 52, etc. Or, just get teh CZ, add a decent scope, and shoot it as-is with good to great ammo and see what it can do.

Of course, being cheap I got a Savage, a Simmons WTC scope w/ AO, and am happy with groups of 1.25-1.5" at 100 yards.

 

[lawman29]

Ditto on the 40x...there are some many aftermarket options based on the 700...

 

[Explorer]

Some great ideas have been provided, just thought I'd add my experience with CZs. I had a CZ which had a Stilth stock installed and the factory trigger reworked to have a 2 ounce weight. Obviously it was a bench only gun but using a Weaver V16 scope it would shoot scores of 247 out of 250 at 00 yd rimfire benchrest targets - with a factory barrel. They purpose of my input is to say, depending on your goals, don't immediately give up on factory barrels - not to say the customer barrels are not "better." As for me, I should have kept that Sako which had a Lilja bolt-in barrel installed for my quality, non-competition rimfire.

 

[Belliger]

BennY: Thanks for the info. I have never shot a 77/22 before and knowing that the bolt is smoother on the CZ and there was no noticeable difference in accuracy is good information.

Bunsen27 and ivanthesane: Thanks for the info on the Anschutz, I did not know that the 64 shot as good or better than a 455 + Lilja. I would have thought otherwise. I have heard that the 64 has issues ejecting cases (if you don't work the bolt just right they can go up, hit the scope and fall back into the action). Have any of you had that issue?

Explorer: I hear what you are saying about not messing with a rifle before a bullet has been fired down the barrel. There are a lot of Monday morning guns out there that may shoot awesome without a single modification. However if I were to go the route of buying a stock gun with the mind to upgrade it later, I have the personality of just needing to buy everything at once. That is easier and less frustrating then to buy something and chance not having it work the way I wanted it too. I am very “buy once and cry once”.

Everyone mentioning 40x and 52's: I had not considered going the used route. I have always been a little wary of buying used guns because I am afraid of inheriting someone's problem gun (they can't get it to shoot so they send it off down the road, or they scratched the crown with a cleaning rod, etc). I have heard great things about both and there are a lot of 52's on Gunbroker. I have not seen used 40x 22's, I looked and Remington has a new 40x but it is $3k, which is a little out of my price range (plus it's a single shot and I would prefer a repeater.

Would you say that going the used route on a forum or Gunbroker on a 52 or 40x is worth the risk vs buying a new rifle? Is the trigger the only difference between the 52 B and C?

So what it sounds like so far is that everyone is partial to the bolt guns for making lots of small groups. And no one has recommended the turn-key custom guns. So what I am left with now is for a new rifle, a CZ 455 or Anschutz 64. Or go the used route and look for a model 54, 40x, or 52. I am just wary of the used gun market, should I be?

 

[long range newbie]

one word. volquartsen

 

[bunsen27]

If you have limited or no experience dealing in used guns then I would steer clear of the used Win and Rem markets for now. Make your second rimfire a Win or Rem.

Yes the Anz64 does have sporadic ejection issues but there is a simple fix for it. I'll see if i I can find the thread.

 

[2guard]

Anschutz 64 mpr. I have seen some sell used for $800. If I purchase another 22lr repeater, the 64mpr would be it. If you are not set on a repeater, buy an older Anschutz 54 or Walther. You can find nice ones for under $800 on a regular basis. Mcmillan has some nice stocks for the Anschutz 54 and 64 if you find a cheap one with a banged up stock. And, I think Chesebro rifles still does the repeater conversion on the Anschutz 54.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Well, you are considering some mighty fine rifles. Based on your criteria though, you might take a look at the Kimber Model 82 being sold by the CMP for $600..................................just saying?

 

[usmcchet9296]

I have a CZ455 PT and its a 1.5 inch gun at 100 but can shoot sub inch groups regularly with SK+ or Wolf match when the heat/cold/wind are cooperating with a stock CZ bull barrel. I have a CZ 452 I gave to my son that shoots about the same with said ammo. I havent tried it with high dollar match ammo but as a trainer both are great guns. I installed a YoDave kit in both and got the trigger down to about 1.5 2 pounds. I plan on upgrading my barrel and maybe trigger on my 455 but haven't because of cost and well really how much better will a lijia barrel shoot for a gun designed to be a trainer? A bench gun yes but a trainer probably not much. CZ is a great gun as are the others but consider what you want ... a trainer close to a larger centerfire that allows you to use some of the same disciplines one would use in a tactical situation or just a pure precision/bench-type rifle? Id love to get a 40X or even an old Winchester 52 but for right now my CZ is doing me just fine.

CZ455PT-10-12 (1) by usmcchet92_96, on Flickr


CZ452V (5) by usmcchet92_96, on Flickr

 

[bunsen27]

I was able to locate the Anz64 ejector fix thread:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...15384-anschutz-64-ejection-problem-fixed.html

I'd skip the Kimber 82, as it doesn't meet your criteria of "very accurate". Nice rifle for the money, but not on par with a CZ or Anz 64.

 

[Belliger]

LR Newbie: I was looking at Volquartsen too but I read a few people though that their quality has dropped in recent years vs Kidd and Clark. People seemed to think that one's money went father with the later two.

Bunsen: Thanks for finding that post, that does look like an easy fix! Thanks for the advice on the used gun market. This will actually be my second 22. I have a Marlin 880 that I have done what I can do (trigger, barrel channel) but I would like something that is more accurate and feels more like a big boy rifle. I also need something that I can put spacers in because 13.5” LOP is a little short for my gangly arms.

2guard: I would prefer a repeater and thanks for another recommendation for the 64.

Extreme: I would have taken a look at them if there were any left. Now there are just “rusty” models for $425, but I am not in the market for a fixer upper. Rifle Sales - .22 Target Surplus

usmcchet: This would be a combo gun for bench (getting the smallest groups my finger will allow) and training (targets at varying distances and working on switching back and forth to get holdover changes more “second nature”. So this gun would definitely be used on a bipod part of the time and on sandbags that other part. I am buying accuracy for the bench part knowing I won't need it for the trainer part.

So what I am getting from everyone is that if I wanted a bolt gun, and wanted to buy new (which I do), best bang for buck would be the Anschutz 64 with a close second being the CZ 455 PT. Am I about right?

 

[Belliger]

LR Newbie: I was looking at Volquartsen too but I read a few people though that their quality has dropped in recent years vs Kidd and Clark. People seemed to think that one's money went father with the later two.

Bunsen: Thanks for finding that post, that does look like an easy fix! Thanks for the advice on the used gun market. This will actually be my second 22. I have a Marlin 880 that I have done what I can do (trigger, barrel channel) but I would like something that is more accurate and feels more like a big boy rifle. I also need something that I can put spacers in because 13.5” LOP is a little short for my gangly arms.

2guard: I would prefer a repeater and thanks for another recommendation for the 64.

Extreme: I would have taken a look at them if there were any left. Now there are just “rusty” models for $425, but I am not in the market for a fixer upper.

usmcchet: This would be a combo gun for bench (getting the smallest groups my finger will allow) and training (targets at varying distances and working on switching back and forth to get holdover changes more “second nature”. So this gun would definitely be used on a bipod part of the time and on sandbags that other part. I am buying accuracy for the bench part knowing I won't need it for the trainer part.

So what I am getting from everyone is that if I wanted a bolt gun, and wanted to buy new (which I do), best bang for buck would be the Anschutz 64 with a close second being the CZ 455 PT. Am I about right?

Also for those of you suggesting a 64 MBR. Would you rather go that route or get a 1712D barreled action from Champions Choice and a McMillan stock for not that much more? $1,100 for the MBR vs $1,500 for the 1712 + McMillan.

 

[Pinecone]

I talked to Manners about the rear pillar on the CZ, and they found it didn't do anything. That's why they didn't do it.

We are still breaking in our CZ. Less than 100 rounds through it.

CZ455 VPT
DIP 25 MOA Extended Mount
DIP Bottom Metal
DIP Extended Mag Release
Timney Trigger
Burris XTR rings
Harris Bipod
BSA 4-14x Tactical Scope

 

[csdilligaf]

If you buy the 1712 barrel action and put the stock on it, IMHO it would be the ultimate. I am planning on doing just that myself. I think the Annie 54 action is so well built I am afraid I would not be happy with the Model 64 action. I started with a CZ 452 Varmint then a Sako Finnfire and now want the Annie. Still have the others but wish I had just gone with the 1710 or 1712 right from the start.

 

[Belliger]

Pinecone: Thanks, I had wondered why there was only one pillar. Also your build looks awesome and is very close to the route I would go if I decide on a 455.

csdilligaf: Thanks for your input on the 1712. I am only going to get one nice 22 and then my next rifle will be a precision centerfire (something like a FN SPR A3G). So I want to make sure that whatever I do now I am not going to be wishing I had done better in 5 years.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

BlackOps Precision » Archive » BlackOps Precision Model 605 Rimfire

That's the rifle, but they're planning on selling the barreled action only. Just a little food for thought if you want a repeater that works with AICS bottom metal and takes any 700 stock and trigger.

 

[bunsen27]

If I recall correctly the 605 barreled action was soft quoted at $1200 with 1 magazine, but none have shipped yet. Add another $500 for McMillan or a Manner's and well you're in the price range of a Cooper 57M and not in the ballpark accuracy wise. However, IF you do end up going the Rem700 route with your centerfire you could utilize the same stock (in theory) and save $$$ down the road.

As for the internet debate on the 64 vs 54 action I doubt most people can shoot well enough to tell the difference. Maybe the benchrest guys can, but as a trainer either will suffice. I'm not sure the last time Champions even had the 1712D actions in stock, might want to check before going too far down that path.

The above linked thread on the Anz64 ejection issue fix does work. The hardest part is actually removing and then reinstalling the half moon clip. I'm back from the range and the Annie never had a FTE in 200 rounds and was flinging brass about 3 ft to my 3 & 4 o'clock.

 

[rrflyer]

I have the cz455PT and 40xb.


40Xb is more accurate but the cz455 makes a better training tool for my big guns.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

If I recall correctly the 605 barreled action was soft quoted at $1200 with 1 magazine, but none have shipped yet. Add another $500 for McMillan or a Manner's and well you're in the price range of a Cooper 57M and not in the ballpark accuracy wise. However, IF you do end up going the Rem700 route with your centerfire you could utilize the same stock (in theory) and save $$$ down the road.

Can you tell me why you don't feel it would be as accurate as the Cooper? I was surprised, but I believe this uses a Krieger barrel. I was surprised because I'm not aware of Krieger really having a reputation for rimfire barrels or not that I know. Going this way also follows the path of the "trainer" but if you're putting a CZ into a Manners isn't that the intended purpose as well? Would you rate the MPR higher than that CZ with the Lilja?

This is actually something I've considered purchasing for myself and would require me to sell all my other .22s. Sorry for the slight highjack. It's either this rifle or the modified 40x if this is what you're interested in.

 

[rideHPD]

Worst case with a 40X(B) is it doesn't shoot and you have it sent off to be rebarreled, and you have a really nice custom rifle that matches your centerfire for training. I went down this road with a 40XB action and had Chad Dixon spin up a barrel and fit a PTG bolt. I find now I spend nearly all my time shooting rimfire b/c it is so much cheaper and the training is priceless. Keep in mind at 100 yards a 10 mph full value wind will net about a 6" deflection. If you shoot at a range that has any variance in wind you will discover very fast how challenging it is to hold 1 MOA center. I recently shot my 308 for the first time in over 6 months and was able to make acceptable wind calls that netted first round hits or close misses on ~1MOA steel, which was a very marked improvement since the last time I shot that rifle. If I hadn't gone down that road I would have picked up a CZ or Sako Quad (Euro Optic should have some leftover Quads), but I would now be happy with an Anschutz. The Blackops option is a great choice, as well as the remaining Stiller Lonestar actions, for a stand-in 40X action replacement that meets the 700 compatibility.

 

[bunsen27]

Can you tell me why you don't feel it would be as accurate as the Cooper? I was surprised, but I believe this uses a Krieger barrel. I was surprised because I'm not aware of Krieger really having a reputation for rimfire barrels or not that I know. Going this way also follows the path of the "trainer" but if you're putting a CZ into a Manners isn't that the intended purpose as well? Would you rate the MPR higher than that CZ with the Lilja?

This is actually something I've considered purchasing for myself and would require me to sell all my other .22s. Sorry for the slight highjack. It's either this rifle or the modified 40x if this is what you're interested in.

Do you recall the old saying: "why are divorces so expensive....because they are worth it!" That principle applies to Cooper's as well. They don't make very many 57M's in a year and won't let one leave the factor that isn't an absolute hammer. They also happen to be absolutely beautiful rifles. I've shot against one in the Conover TSC (it co-held the high score record until today) and I've seen what one can do at 100yds on an indoor range. Accuracy potential wise for production guns (ignoring custom BR rigs) I would rank :

Cooper~Anz54 target>Win 52D> Win 52C~Win52B=40X>ANZ64 BR>Anz54 Sporter = Anz64 MPR~CZ455 with Lija>>CZ 455 factory

The biggest jump in accuracy potential is from the CZ 455 to the CZ 455 w/Lija. All other accuracy differences are minor shifts. Once you reach the base level of accuracy for an ANZ64 MPR you're well within the margin of error for most shooters abilities (assuming ammo optimization). You've heard the expression: "it's the Indian, not the arrow". Once you reach a base level of the "arrow" (ANZ 64 or CZ w/Lija) being good/accurate enough it becomes the "Indian" or biological component. In most shooting platforms the weakest link/component IS the biological portion.

The reason why I don't include the 605 from Black Ops Tech anywhere is because, other than a few prototypes, they don't exist. Sure the prototypes may be humdingers, but they are not in production. Once they do become available, then we can start to assess their accuracy potential and relative rank to know performers. At this point it's a pig in a poke or leap of faith to order one. Granted Black Ops does make outstanding centerfire rifles. The choice is up to the consumer.

The whole concept of a "trainer" mimicking or mirroring your centerfire rig to me has always been overkill. Is it cool to have a rimfire set up like your centerfire...absolutely, but it isn't necessary to reap the benefits of using a rimfire as a trainer. Rimfire training allows you to work on your fundamentals, gets you economic trigger time, and work on your wind calls. The whole "the wind drift at xxxyds of a 22LR mimics the wind drift of a .308win at xxxyds" is wishful thinking. Stepping out to 150-200yds with a rimfire in 5+ mph winds will teach you a lot. All the extra $$$ you would drop into a "trainer" for high end glass and a high end stock would be better spent on a couple cases of ammo and some nice steel targets to go out and shoot.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Cooper~Anz54 target>Win 52D> Win 52C~Win52B=40X>ANZ64 BR>Anz54 Sporter = Anz64 MPR~CZ455 with Lija>>CZ 455 factory

Thanks for the comparison. I agree, the 605 is a unicorn for the time being. I value being able to have something which takes a 700 stock because I know it will fit me or can be easily adjusted to. I agree with you on the trainer overkill, I will never be in a position to put an S&B on a .22 so I don't have to worry about that. I'm not sure what you're learning about the wind @150 - 200, other than this is how it affects your .22? If there's really not a direct correlation, then am I doing anything but having fun?

If I shot tactical matches with a centerfire and wanted cheap training I'd want to have a similar range to train on. But if I make my targets smaller and make the maximum range not much more than 25 yards I can use much cheaper ammunition. I could practice all 4 positions, barricades, and whatever other craziness they do. Having the same stock would seem to be important and maybe the trigger, but the glass wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Belliger]

Thanks bunsen for your accuracy rundown. I was wondering why the 54 sporter (i am assuming you mean the 17 series) is equal to a 64 MPR when the sporters have a lapped barrel in addition to the action changes. I would think with a better barrel you might see some accuracy increase.

What difference would you say there is between the 64 MPR and the 14 series other then the single stage trigger? There is a 1416D HB with a thumbhole stock that is really pleasing to the eyes, however I have not heard here nor there about the 14 series except to complain about the trigger.

Also what difference is there between the 64 MPR and the 62 S benchrest other then a few inches shorter barrel and a different stock that would make it more accurate?

Just out of curiosity where would you say the Sako Quads fit into the mix?

 

[BenY 2013]

Just out of curiosity where would you say the Sako Quads fit into the mix?

I'd like to know as well, and if possible what about the Remington 504 Heavy barrel not the sporter profile(I have heard those pretty much suck!), interested in the heavy barrel.Thanks


Ben

 

[bunsen27]

DFOOSKING can give you a better rundown on the Sako quads than I can as he owns one and I don't. Recall I said accuracy differences once you went above an ANZ 64 MPR are minor and most shooters cannot shoot well enough to notice an appreciable difference. Use my scale as a general rule of thumb and not an absolute ranking. Buy what you can afford and makes you happy. Objectively trying to rank all make and models with the subjective and temperamental nature of rimfire ammo is a touch foolish. As I stated before I'm, a big believer in once you have a good enough arrow it's more the Indian than the arrow. Buy a quality rifle (or four) and spend more time practicing than worrying about if there is a "better" rifle.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Cooper~Anz54 target>Win 52D> Win 52C~Win52B=40X>ANZ64 BR>Anz54 Sporter = Anz64 MPR~CZ455 with Lija>>CZ 455 factory

Mmmm...I don't know about that. Not trying to be a wet blanket or blatantly disagree with you but some of this comparison would appear unproven. A Cooper tied with an Anschutz MPR on the same day in the same match. Cooper has made some dogs, ask Brownie, he owned one for about 3 months that he tried every ammo under the sun, and never could get it to shoot with anything he has now, and I think we can agree Brownie has quite a stable. 40Xs have shot at TSC and been found wanting. If I thought I could improve with a 40X I would already own one...so would Steve. An Anschutz MPR just broke the score record at TSC, I think we can agree that with the exception of Stage 1, the course hasn't gotten any easier, but certainly it has put the shooter back into the equation. I expect the course to actually get harder next month and I will defer to my captain on that announcement. I eagerly await the instance of a CZ455PT with a Lilja barrel, to show up at TSC, I would like to see what it will do. I have seen some targets posted but I also know what I have seen the MPR do on Fridays before a match. I watched Steve stack 4 at 200M for a group that was litterally the size of a nickle, with one flier that busted it out to 1.5"...AT 200M! That is an ammo with a well known track record and it is scarce as hens teeth. MOST of the guns listed above will probably shoot on par with each other given a properly matched ammo and a great shooter. I will say this: It is undisputed that the 64 MPR has DOMINATED TSC for the last 3 years. Those stats are in hand and I doubt anyone would try and argue with those numbers, as they constitute a rather significant sample.
To each his own. If I could own 2 precision 22 rifles my second pick would be a 40X. My experience with used guns has often been rather dismal and I know what to look for and how to buy. Ultimately it will all come down to ammo and the shooter, and even Anschutz has probably made a dog or two, but I have never seen one of those yet.

 

[bunsen27]

Every manufactuer can make a lemon from time to time and if I'd put an Anz64 over the "mythical" 40x too many moo moos would have been bruised. We both agree that ammo plays a critical role in rimfire accuracy.

One question about all those dominating Anz64's. How many were shooting the same lot of Federal and are now shooting the same lot of Lapua Center-X?

 

[Belliger]

Bunsen: You say there differences are minor yes, but you do say there are differences. You felt confident enough to actually say “this one is inherently more accurate then that one”, I would just like to know why. Why do you think the 64 benchrest is more accurate then the 64 MPR?

Why does the MPR win more matches then the 14 or 17 series rifles?

 

[bunsen27]

See my comments in post #29 I'll repost for emphasis again:

Recall I said accuracy differences once you went above an ANZ 64 MPR are minor and most shooters cannot shoot well enough to notice an appreciable difference. Use my scale (opinion) as a general rule of thumb and not an absolute ranking. Objectively trying to rank all make and models with the subjective and temperamental nature of rimfire ammo is a touch foolish.

---

Buy any new Anschutz with confidence. The major differences of the 64MPR and 64BR over the 14 and 17 series of rifles is the 5098 trigger pack along with a heavy barrel. The 5098 goes down to 7oz (175g) whereas the 5094D & 5096D only go down to 36.8oz (1000g). Unless you are shooting benchrest you will likely not notice an accuracy differrence between the 64 BR and 64 MPR. The BR will ride the bags better and a shorter barrel "in theory" will be more rigid and have a shorter dwell time. Other than the shorter barrel they are the same rifles.

J.G. ANSCHÜTZ GmbH & Co. KG - Caliber .22 l.r.

You've been given a wealth of information to consider, time to start doing your own research. I would suggest Rimfire Central Forums for in depth learning about specific models as they have numerous manufacturer model specific forums. I'm not going to devolve this into a Remington vs Winchester vs Anschutz (Ford vs Chevy) type of debate. With rimfire there are more exceptions than there are rules and ammo quality trumps just about everything. Even within specific ammo types the specific lot# will play a critical role. As I've posted in another thread I presently have access to six different lots of SK Standard ammo. I do my testing at 50yds and 100yds on an idoor range. Each lot performs differently in each of my main rifles. That is the nature of rimfire.