Needing advice with a 7mm Saum shooting 180 Berger VLD Hunting bullets.... Which powder?

[cdherman]

Built up this gun on a Savage short action with a Shilen Select match stainless 26" barrel in heavy sporter. The max COAL in the Savage SA is about 2.990", so I had Shilen throat to a dummy cartridge with that length. (quite short throat) Stock is a laminate Boyds, which I pillar bedded with zero stress after relieving the wood around the action. Action is thus fully bedded and the barrel entirely floated.

Cases are RP, bought 200 and sorted to weight classes of about .5 gram. Then FL resized with a good Forrester die. I did not turn the necks or mess with collet dies, but just expanded with the Forrester Ball

Well, started with H4831sc. Started 5 thou off land, as its a hunting gun and I did not want spilled powder from jambing bullets into lands. Tried a variety of loads, all around 1". Seating with a Forrester micrometer seating die.

Backed off from lands in 30 thou increments, sticking with the "on the lands load" that seemed most promising. At 150 thou off lands, things got some better, to say around .7" 5 shot group. But the chrony that I recently bought still is showing a lot of speed inconsistency. At 500 yards 3 shots on a windy day were around 8" group.

So that's not horrible, but its not really where I want to be either.

Now, the bullet is a long way in the case. Read a lot about doing that before I ever built the gun. Some said it would be fine -- the boattail and even a little body of the bullet are below the neck. Others less optimistic. But I wanted a useable magazine.

I have read and read and read....

I have a small supply of h-1000 and was thinking of trying that next. But powder is hard to come by and sure as the world, it will shoot fine and I won't be able to find more powder. I also have 8lbs each of Ramshot Magnum and Norma MRP. I have 8lbd of H4831sc as well, but that didn't work out.....

Any advice? Try the H1000? Ramshot? MRP?

Give up and throat the barrel much longer and accept that its a single shot?

I have also purchased a primer pocket reamer and flash hole deburring tool. So those are all cleaned up for this next round of loading.....

Thanks in advance.......

 

[milo 2.0]

Try Ramshot Magnum first, even though I think through seating depth you could bring your load in. 4831 & MRP are too fast IMO.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Have had good luck with Retumbo and N560 Loading them for a 7 Short mag Surgeon Scalpel but I would think that the powders would be just as good with the 7 mag

 

[cdherman]

Try Ramshot Magnum first, even I think through seating depth you could bring your load in. 4831 & MRP are too fast IMO.

OK, one vote for Ramshot magnum... I had been thinking about that one. Its a ball type powder I think and as such, will not fill the case but worth a try.

 

[milo 2.0]

I have a friend that shoots it, but his seat depth is normal. I'm no fan of a slow ball powders, but it works.

 

[bjay]

i got one in short action too, im about to replace SA to LA dont ask my why most popular powder for this cal specialy with your barrel length 4831sc h1000 retumbo rl25 and magnum

 

[jbailey]

Why not try the 180gr Hybrids? Those things shot great for everyone and there is very little difference between the VLD and Hybrid for hunting applications...

H4831sc is too fast for the 180gr in the SAUM. Try H1000 or Retumbo.

 

[SOC308]

I had great results with the 180 vld and hybrid with H-1000, over 3k fps out of a 26'' barrel

 

[milo 2.0]

We can all throw out our recipes, really wont do the guy much good if he can't buy the powder. He stated what he has. There is one powder out there available that will work, IMR 7828.

 

[cdherman]

Interesting point about altitude. Not that high -- 900 ft where I develop loads, shooting deer mostly at 1700 ft, but have plans to chase some elk in future in CO. I had not heard that H1000 was altitude sensitive.

The issue of temp sensitivity is also valid for me. Hunt weather in western KS can vary from 60 degrees to zero. And working up loads at zero is never a pleasure. Hard to get up the enthusiasm.....

I do have SOME H1000. In fact, a whole lb. But I have several guns that I am working on loads for, so my preference is to try powder where my supply is ample first. I have 400 rds of the 180s, so would really like to make the 180 VLD Hunting work. Got some 168's as well. If the 180's don't shoot well with the next powder choice, then I think I will try the 168s and just see. The BC of the 168s is no slouch either......

Thanks for the input so far.....

 

[mtang45]

I started load development a few months ago in a Remington 700 LA with a 30" 5r, 9 twist, Benchmark barrel.

Multiple test loads were tried but the best results were Berger 180gr Hybrid at .020" off lands, Nosler Brass, 61.0gr of RL-25 and FGMM Mag primers. A number of 3-shot groups measured at or under .35". I know 3 shot groups mean very little but the fact that there were multiple groups at the same POI lead some creedance. Velocity ran about 2849 and I feel this would be a good base load to tweak.

QuickLoad reports this load to be at 101% of capacity. I only mention RL-25 because it is sometimes available. As far as what you have, I think the MRP would suit your needs the best. Something around 59gr; but as usual start low and work up.

 

[jcann]

I shoot a 7wsm and use H1000 for both 180gr hunting VLD and 180gr hybrids. I measure base to ogive (2.2475") and kiss the lands with the hunting VLD and back off 15 thousands with the hybrids. When I shoot 168gr hunting VLD I use H4831sc again kissing the lands. I use my GAP for hunting and have never pulled a bullet out extracting a loaded round. If I jammed my bullets I wouldn't worry about pulling a bullet out; not with the bushing I'm using. My rifle constantly shoots sub 1/2moa.

If I were you I would measure my chamber and set my base to ogive length for the VLD's. There are several makers of this type tool to accomplish this. As far as inconsistent MV, it could be due to inconsistent neck tension and/or inconsistent seating depth. If your brass has several loadings on it I would suggest annealing it.

GAP's chamber neck diameter is 0.320" which is a no turn chamber but I still turn my necks to try to achieve consistent neck tension.

Some people have trouble getting VLD's to shoot accurately. Generally close to the lands or jammed is where you want to be but some have had good luck with a long jump.

 

[cdherman]

If I were you I would measure my chamber and set my base to ogive length for the VLD's. There are several makers of this type tool to accomplish this. As far as inconsistent MV, it could be due to inconsistent neck tension and/or inconsistent seating depth. If your brass has several loadings on it I would suggest annealing it.

I have the Hornady OAL Guage setup to determine my ogive to lands distances. I do not turn my necks, and have not tried to start using collet sizing. Certainly many many shooters have not had to turn and go to collet sizing, and I am hoping to be one of them.

Brass has been new to 1x fired.

RL-25 is not very temp stable from what I gather.. Or is that wrong?

 

[jcann]

I have the Hornady OAL Guage setup to determine my ogive to lands distances. I do not turn my necks, and have not tried to start using collet sizing. Certainly many many shooters have not had to turn and go to collet sizing, and I am hoping to be one of them.

Brass has been new to 1x fired.

RL-25 is not very temp stable from what I gather.. Or is that wrong?

I don't have any experience with RL-25 therefore I can't speak with any knowledge about it. I shoot nothing but Hodgon extream powders. With our temp swing from summer to winter in Oklahoma I need a stable powder.

Are you measuring your loaded rounds from the meplat or to the ogive? Berger bullets can have a lot of variance in meplat and bearing surface length. It only takes 10-20 thousands and things can change from jump to jam measuring COAL. I seat all my rounds with a micro seating die using a comparator to set base to ogive for every round.

I had new Winchester brass give me inconsistent MV with all necks turned to 15 thousands thickness but after I annealed them I had velocities of 2860, 2864, 2867, and 2857. My velocity had dropped about 90fps due to a different lot of powder thou.

 

[mtang45]

I have never experienced temperature related problems with RL25, but I have also probably never shot it at extremes (over 90* or under 30*). I would work up a load with the MRP you have; I think you might be pleased with the results. MRP is really close to H1000 in burn rate.

 

[Barney88PDC]

Put 0.002-0.003" neck tension on the round and jam them 0.010-0.015". H1000 at about 65.5 is where you'll end up. Start at. 62.0gr and run it over a chrono and it will shoot between 2925 - 2975 fps.

Even if you don't want to stay jammed just try it to test it for accuracy and let me know.

 

[trailrider121]

Cdherman,

I did some test with Ramshot Magnum powder, Rem brass, cci-250 primer, 180 hybrids (close to 180 vld hunting). I shot these at 450 yards. Hopefully this can help you out. I ended up using Retumbo in my 24" barrel;however, its maxed out and load long.

H4831 works great around 60-61.5grs. with 180's.

 

[Barney88PDC]

I guess you already found this?

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading-depot/127920-7rsaum-loads.html

 

[cdherman]

Are you measuring your loaded rounds from the meplat or to the ogive? Berger bullets can have a lot of variance in meplat and bearing surface length. It only takes 10-20 thousands and things can change from jump to jam measuring COAL. I seat all my rounds with a micro seating die using a comparator to set base to ogive for every round.

Ogive. I seat also with a micrometer seating die, as you do.

What I do not do is neck turn and own a bushing neck die. Just relying on the ball expander. I am in the process of starting to anneal. What I have gathered through a lot of reading is that the ball expander is not necessarily such a bad thing, but it works the brass a lot, and also, as the brass work hardens, the grip on the bullet changes.

I think I'd rather perfect a regimen of annealing to allow the use of the ball expander, as opposed to neck turning and collet or bushing sizing. Have read a lot of opinions where this is the approach, for a standard throated gun. For a bench rest gun of course, all measures, including turning and bushing sizing are accepted. But in a hunting gun, just neck sizing alone is not a great option. Once you size the whole case, seems to me, all those benefits of a tight throat , neck sizing only, turning the neck, bushing dies etc etc, just become moot.....

But I am a newbie to the LR stuff. Seems that a lot of other LR shooters do not neck turn though....