PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

[264win]

Not going to weigh in on the OP Video
Because it’s all been said in the last 4 pages better than I could.

I will say that I am very happy to see the lack off safety enforcement finally being discussed. It still needs to be enacted but this is a start. Perhaps as more of these videos keep surfacing and more people weigh in PRS and MDs will pay more attention.
2 years ago I stopped shooting matches for this very reason. I couldn’t even count the number of NDs I saw that went in a “safe direction” and two occasions where bullets came with 2’ of hitting someone.

There are some very safe and well organized matches. The NorCal TBRC with Vu as MD was very impressive. Squads of spotters and ro’s at every stage and plenty keeping an eye on shooters transitioning as well.

Let’s support the matches that get it right and keep pushing the rest to follow suit

 

[Rugster]

The thing is, that most of the time these are not caught by anyone. I have a good friend who eye-witnessed a very blatant ND at a NRL match a little over a month ago. Everyone in the squad saw it, and the RO even verbally acknowledged it, yet nothing was done about that one.

This video was at a PRS match in Texas that I attended. This ND was one of three that happened in that same match that weekend.
No one is talking about the other two, because with one of them some serious politics is involved. As it is I am being made out as the bad guy on this video because the RO was getting bashed by a lot of people.
To me it seems people would rather ignore blatant safety violations rather than see an RO get bashed a little bit. She didn’t even do anything wrong, so I don’t understand why she even got dragged into it.
I have been taking so much heat over this video… But I simply can’t please everyone I guess.

That’s sort of what I was getting at. If Shooters don’t own their ND’s with integrity, no amount of rules will fix this problem because a lot of the time no one else notices. It comes back to needing more eyes on the shooter.

 

[ForgeValley]

I just watched the video, and that is just shameful. The shooter should have immediately match DQ'd himself. That was as clear an ND as you could want, and it was extremely clear that he was aware of his mistake.

I don't know the shooter, I don't know the match, and I don't know the RO. The ND was almost certainly not visible to the RO if they were on glass. That is what I said in another thread, either shooters have to have integrity and DQ themselves, or other shooters have to do it. And, we need leadership from the top.

@S.Kay

Shannon, I met when you when you were an instructor at your 4 day precision course last year. You seemed to me to be a leader, someone of integrity and someone who was no nonsense around safety issues (my muzzle approached the 180 vertical coming up from a position, and you were on me in a second and I appreciated it). I think we could use some of that leadership now. Let's change this before a tragedy occurs.

 

[HogsLife]

....but did any of that happen?....

we can play "what ifs" till the cows come home.

and at what point does it become an ND?

if i have the rifle shouldered, on target, and my finger twitches.....and i hit my target albeit not where i would like.....is that a ND? seeing as i didnt "intend" to shoot.....should that be a DQ?

if im shooting my 6 shot revolver.....and i think i shoot it 6 times but ive only actually shot it 5.....i go to "dry fire" on my target and my gun fires......its on target....but again, i didnt "intend" it to fire....should that get me thrown off a range?

This is the problem with society today. Always trying to work on the grey area, making excuses, and a complete lack of accountability or consequences for their actions. When it comes to firearms safety and live rounds, there is no “Grey” area. PERIOD.

Was it and ND or wasn’t it? Per the definition, it was an ND.

Match DQ End of discussion. Bye Felicia....

As for RO’s, there needs to be individuals that are strictly there to observe safety. If RO’s are too busy with their face in the glass keeping score to observe safety, then there needs to be safety specific supervision. Ie, 1:2 or 1:3 ratio safety officer per 2-3 shooters. I don’t know what ratio would work, 1 safety officer per RO. Fact is, I’m sure volunteers are hard to come bye, but it’s obvious that individual shooters can’t be trusted, and if this is the case and there are too many shooters for staff to monitor safety effectively, than something needs to change. Whether that be setting up the courses of fire, number of shooters shooting at a time, staffing etc.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way taking the responsibility off of the individual shooter, but I’m sorry, the “Honor” system is not the go to solution when dealing with firearms safety and live rounds. That’s just irresponsible and begging for an incident.

In the absence of consequences, anything goes..... Hammer the shit out of people without exception and people will either get their shit together or hit the road. Both of which are better than someone getting killed, or injured.

FYI, I’m sure sponsors are gonna frown pretty heavily on their shooters when they start getting DQ’d from matches for being unsafe. One more reason for them to get their shit together....

EDIT: I’m gonna go ahead and throw this in there too.

Honor System Violation:

If a shooter has an legit ND / Safety related incident, and lacks the integrity / honor to call it on himself, and tries to slip one by on the RO, and gets called on it by an RO, Safety Officer, video etc, that shooter not only gets immediately DQ’d from the match, but is also banned from shooting that match or any other match on that facility in the future.

If a Match Director gets called out for running unsafe matches, not enforcing safety violations, or “playing favorites” on who they call for safety, then they are no longer allowed to act in any capacity in regards to PRS / NRL sanctioned matches.

If RO’s get called out on not enforcing safety equally across the board then they are no longer allowed to RO or shoot in that match in the future.

Make the consequences severe enough, and shit will change.

 

[ForgeValley]

As for RO’s, there needs to be individuals that are strictly there to observe safety. If RO’s are too busy with their face in the glass keeping score to observe safety, then there needs to be safety specific supervision. Ie, 1:2 or 1:3 ratio safety officer per 2-3 shooters. I don’t know what ration would work, 1 safety officer per RO. Fact is, I’m sure volunteers are hard to come bye, but it’s obvious that individual shooters can’t be trusted 100% of the time, and that’s is the case and there are too many shooters for staff to monitor safety effectively, than something needs to change. Whether that be setting up the courses of fire, number of shooters shooting at a time, staffing etc.

Why not run a safety RO at each stage? Give the safety RO's first run at the prize table. You will get volunteers, I assure you.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

It's all about the beards and gear.

I'm leaving on a jet plane
Don't know when I'll be back again.

 

[regnar375]

The fact that there are 3 pages on discussion concerning the seriousness of a ND is alarming in and of itself. I'll continue to shoot by myself on private land and stay away from the naysayers. I've seen way to many people that have been shot...

The fact there are 4 pages indicate that there are people who care and want to see it change

 

[regnar375]

The thing is, that most of the time these are not caught by anyone. I have a good friend who eye-witnessed a very blatant ND at a NRL match a little over a month ago. Everyone in the squad saw it, and the RO even verbally acknowledged it, yet nothing was done about that one.

This video was at a PRS match in Texas that I attended. This ND was one of three that happened in that same match that weekend.
No one is talking about the other two, because with one of them some serious politics is involved. As it is I am being made out as the bad guy on this video because the RO was getting bashed by a lot of people.
To me it seems people would rather ignore blatant safety violations rather than see an RO get bashed a little bit. She didn’t even do anything wrong, so I don’t understand why she even got dragged into it.
I have been taking so much heat over this video… But I simply can’t please everyone I guess.

I'm sorry that you are taking heat for this. however I do believe you posting this video will effect change sooner than latter.

If someone is but hurt because you posted it, they need to take a long har liok at themselves because they are part of the problem. Thst RO is the nicest person in the world I'm sure. but she made a mistake in giving that guy a point. and because of how the matches are run, through no fault of her own, she missed the ND. I'm not bashing her, but the video is a perfect example of the safety culture at matches around the country.

As for people saying banning you and or cameras, those are the people that need to be outed and bashed for trying to prevent a change and cover up serious safety violations.

 

[lte82]

I met a former navy seal sniper that trained with Carlos Hathcock back in 'nam that told me every shot should go off when I least expect it. Just breathe and squeeze and let it surprise you. Looked like perfect form to me, you could really tell he didnt know it was about to fire!

 

[HogsLife]

Why not run a safety RO at each stage? Give the safety RO's first run at the prize table. You will get volunteers, I assure you.

You have RO’s to run the Match and RSO’s to run Match safety.

 

[LawnMM]

Yeah a few people have already brought that up. Trying to say it’s illegal to take photo and video without permission. It’s not illegal as long as you have permission from the manager or owner of the land, which I always do.

Also discussing an out-right ban on me attending matches period.

You did the right thing in exposing it, just realize as Frank has pointed out numerous times... there's going to be pushback from the folks that think their talent gives them extra leeway.

As for the whole "it's illegal" thing, I get that question a lot at work. You have no expectation of privacy at a public venue with scores of people around, even on private land. Unless there's some no filming rule which will, as already pointed out, probably what gets implemented next.

Why not run a safety RO at each stage? Give the safety RO's first run at the prize table. You will get volunteers, I assure you.

You'll also get an ungodly shitstorm of whining.

 

[LawnMM]

Sounds easy but look around, it's a struggle just getting a single RO/RSO whatever at each stage as it is, your solution is "just double that"...

Not saying you're wrong but I am saying it ain't that simple. There's a shortage of people who want to dedicate a weekend of sitting in the sun to other people's enjoyment.

Here's more food for thought, maybe we need to ban two stage triggers. Ever pull through the first stage and miss the wall? If we're being absolutist then you have an ND on your hands and that guy should pack up and head home.

Maybe we shouldn't do any standing offhand at all. Can't tell you how many times I've squeezed a shot off a hair early or late on that as my crosshairs drifted across the target. The intent was to squeeze off the shot when the crosshairs were on target though, so wouldn't a miss in that case be an ND? I pulled the trigger later or earlier than intended, didn't I?

I'm being ridiculous to try and make a point. I'm not saying be unsafe or give people slack for shit that's going to hurt somebody. I just think it's a little less black and white than we want it to be. In the context of the standing offhand miss:

Is anybody going to argue the intent isn't to squeeze the trigger as the crosshairs pass over the target while you're trying to stabilize a 20lb+ rifle offhand? Then by our absolutist definition of ND if you miss, you ND'd, right? You pulled the trigger earlier/later than intended. Anybody ever been DQ'd for missing a standing offhand shot?

Not that I've ever seen or heard of. Why? Because we're following the safety rules, right? Treating it as if it's loaded, we're not muzzling anything we aren't willing to destroy because it's the target and dirt in the sight picture, finger is on the trigger because we ARE prepared to fire, and unless the MD is a fool we have a good backstop for the target.

So if a guy squeezes early on a standing offhand shot, or late, and misses...we don't DQ them. Now let's say noob is on target ready to go and pulls through the first stage and cranks the round when he intended to pause at the wall, shit he may even hit the target, but because we're absolutist on this we're going to DQ him from the whole match?

I'm interested in good discussion and if you argue zero tolerance is the standard, that's fine, but I think we're overlooking stuff that's done constantly while we pretend we're so matter of fact about this.

Round accountability, important I agree. ROs didn't see where it went. Maybe it left the range area, maybe it went into the tree or juniper next to the target. Are we going to DQ every shooter who looses a round in vegetation or wet grass?

Safety is the most important thing, for sure, but absolutism only works if you do it absolutely, and we fuckin don't. When I shot at gunsite a couple years ago at the NRL match guys were losing rounds in vegetation constantly. "No hit, no call."

Maybe those rounds left the range, maybe the guy had an extra rev dialed and lobbed it long, nobody was DQ'd. Maybe they should have been. I'm just trying to bring up discussion points.

This guy ND'd, 100%, if we're going to DQ him, let's do it, but let's address some of the other stuff too then. Let's discuss how to maintain that 100% round accountability.

For the love of God, let's address why it's happening at all... we're doing too much too fast. Slow it down and make the targets harder to hit instead of asking people to be safe with a loaded rifle engaging 5 targets at 5 ranges from three positions in 90 seconds while doing a fucking handstand or some other ridiculous shit that is in no way "practical."

 

[HogsLife]

Sounds easy but look around, it's a struggle just getting a single RO/RSO whatever at each stage as it is, your solution is "just double that"...

Not saying you're wrong but I am saying it ain't that simple. There's a shortage of people who want to dedicate a weekend of sitting in the sun to other people's enjoyment.

Here's more food for thought, maybe we need to ban two stage triggers. Ever pull through the first stage and miss the wall? If we're being absolutist then you have an ND on your hands and that guy should pack up and head home.

Maybe we shouldn't do any standing offhand at all. Can't tell you how many times I've squeezed a shot off a hair early or late on that as my crosshairs drifted across the target. The intent was to squeeze off the shot when the crosshairs were on target though, so wouldn't a miss in that case be an ND? I pulled the trigger later or earlier than intended, didn't I?

I'm being ridiculous to try and make a point. I'm not saying be unsafe or give people slack for shit that's going to hurt somebody. I just think it's a little less black and white than we want it to be. In the context of the standing offhand miss:

Is anybody going to argue the intent isn't to squeeze the trigger as the crosshairs pass over the target while you're trying to stabilize a 20lb+ rifle offhand? Then by our absolutist definition of ND if you miss, you ND'd, right? You pulled the trigger earlier/later than intended. Anybody ever been DQ'd for missing a standing offhand shot?

Not that I've ever seen or heard of. Why? Because we're following the safety rules, right? Treating it as if it's loaded, we're not muzzling anything we aren't willing to destroy because it's the target and dirt in the sight picture, finger is on the trigger because we ARE prepared to fire, and unless the MD is a fool we have a good backstop for the target.

So if a guy squeezes early on a standing offhand shot, or late, and misses...we don't DQ them. Now let's say noob is on target ready to go and pulls through the first stage and cranks the round when he intended to pause at the wall, shit he may even hit the target, but because we're absolutist on this we're going to DQ him from the whole match?

I'm interested in good discussion and if you argue zero tolerance is the standard, that's fine, but I think we're overlooking stuff that's done constantly while we pretend we're so matter of fact about this.

Round accountability, important I agree. ROs didn't see where it went. Maybe it left the range area, maybe it went into the tree or juniper next to the target. Are we going to DQ every shooter who looses a round in vegetation or wet grass?

Safety is the most important thing, for sure, but absolutism only works if you do it absolutely, and we fuckin don't. When I shot at gunsite a couple years ago at the NRL match guys were losing rounds in vegetation constantly. "No hit, no call."

Maybe those rounds left the range, maybe the guy had an extra rev dialed and lobbed it long, nobody was DQ'd. Maybe they should have been. I'm just trying to bring up discussion points.

This guy ND'd, 100%, if we're going to DQ him, let's do it, but let's address some of the other stuff too then. Let's discuss how to maintain that 100% round accountability.

For the love of God, let's address why it's happening at all... we're doing too much too fast. Slow it down and make the targets harder to hit instead of asking people to be safe with a loaded rifle engaging 5 targets at 5 ranges from three positions in 90 seconds while doing a fucking handstand or some other ridiculous shit that is in no way "practical."

I agree that it’s not that easy to come up with volunteers. Sounds easier to say it than actually do it.

Why not have shooters in the squad on glass and keep each other’s score? That way RO’s can be keeping tabs on the safety and the volunteer #’s don’t increase but the safety issues can be monitored. Military / Service matches have been running this way for more years than I’ve been alive.

I would rather leave the scoring in the hands of the “Honor” system than safety. Lord knows you don’t want to get caught pencil jackin a score card in this community.

In regards to ND’s and the standing position, that’s different. The shooters wobble zone in the unsupported standing is huge. The difference I see between an ND and the shot not breaking in the preferred location of your wobble zone, is you did intend to pull the trigger. You were in the process of sighting in on your target and made the “CONSCIENCE DECISION” to begin your trigger squeeze.

The “CONSCIENCE DECISION” to begin your trigger press is the difference between and pulled shot and an ND.

Just because you made a shit wind call or the shot broke in an unopportune time in your wobble zone does not make a shot an ND. It makes it a bad shot.

How far off the target or out of the SDZ that shot impacted is another subject, but an ND it is not.

 

[LawnMM]

You will definitely get guys bumping each others scores if the squad does the score keeping, sad but true. However, I agree in that I'd rather have scoring on the honor system than safety.

I also like the conscious/unconscious as the test as to whether we're talking ND/Flinch/Pulled Shit/Whiff or whatever. However, it's not always easy to tell.

If he doesn't throw his hand up in "WTF" manner who's to say ND vs Flinch or whatever? I suppose calling and addressing the obvious ones would at least be a start.

 

[Lowlight]

Definitely, don't convolute a bad shot with an actual ND, that is how guys will dismiss the discussion.

You start talking about these wild What Ifs and you role play a variety of one-off situations and then everyone throws their hands up and nothing changes.

A bad call, a blow wind hold is not an ND, we know what an ND is, we understand this happens. The fact you can have an impact super close to the plate and not see it is not the issue. If you are watching the shooter you can tell if they are ready and had control of the rifle and trigger vs giving up that control to manage the speed or situation.

 

[HogsLife]

You will definitely get guys bumping each others scores if the squad does the score keeping, sad but true. However, I agree in that I'd rather have scoring on the honor system than safety.

I also like the conscious/unconscious as the test as to whether we're talking ND/Flinch/Pulled Shit/Whiff or whatever. However, it's not always easy to tell.

If he doesn't throw his hand up in "WTF" manner who's to say ND vs Flinch or whatever? I suppose calling and addressing the obvious ones would at least be a start.

I agree.

I will say, It’s a pretty sad day when a mans word ain’t worth shit. Pretty freaking disgusting.

I’m a firm believer though, if an individual wants to be a coniving little fucking snake in the grass, whether that be pencil fucking a score card, or trying to slip safety violations past the RO’s, that he may get away with it for awhile, but eventually he’s gonna get caught and the word will get out. Everything comes around in time, but if the MD’s, RO’s, RSO’s, and fellow shooters are not setting the standard, and enforcing safety equally across the board, then he may very well never get caught, and eventually someone’s gonna get hurt.

 

[1moaoff]

This should not be about the video.

Look at the core issue

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Question for those of you who run match(es) under the Precision Rifle Series.

What does the PRS itself provide to you in terms of support and operational requirements?

Why can ROs (Not scorekeepers) not be supplied by the PRS instead of MDs having to rely on volunteers?

Here is the current sponsor page of the PRS and I just do not see why the series itself could not afford to supply ROs.
https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/partners

Here is the current membership page of the PRS...
https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/profiles/shooters

Pretty much every other "Sport" organization provides certain support and operational procedures to the events being held under its' affiliation/name.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Casamike]

I have very little experience with PRS style shooting but many years in various handgun sports. I volunteered to RO at a PRS match and was rather surprised to see the difference in etiquette and conduct. Half the shooters at the match would have been DQ’d if it were a Uspsa, steel challenge or similiar pistol competition. I was also surprised to see other shooters gently easing myself and another volunteer RO out of the way to score their friends runs. Seemed to be very little integrity as far as scoring or safety was concerned. Perhaps it’s time to look at other shooting sports for some changes to match etiquette and protocol.

 

[Jackomason]

Well I've ran some numbers and come up with two great solutions.



Or the good old sin bin.


And yes... I will be taking a selfie with anyone I find sitting in the sin bin.

 

[HogsLife]

If you think every safety violation is created equal you're an amateur. In the top tier units that Lowlight references they are not all equal. There's definitely a cut line when you're unsafe and then you're done. And not for some arbitrary year. But you can't have the pursuit of excellence and zero tolerance mentality in the same environment. You have to be able to create a safe environment for guys to push hard and fail, to a point. And then you have no-fail missions, in which it's all on the line. It's just not black and white like it's trying to be made out here. And the motivation for the zero-tolerance mentality here is a NRA/ gun control-style argument, a hard knee-jerk violent swing in one direction to overcompensate for the perceived wild-west, no-standards environment that exists now. So, on this thread, amongst these people, you're going to have polarized sides, entrenched, and degredating the character of their opponents as if they were child-molesters and the filth of humanity. Somebody mentioned above,

"If a Match Director gets called out for running unsafe matches, not enforcing safety violations, or “playing favorites” on who they call for safety, then they are no longer allowed to act in any capacity in regards to PRS / NRL sanctioned matches."

Is there due process? Does just anybody get to make an accusation? Is there a burden of proof? Or do you just get to "call someone out, bruh!". It's Lynch-mob mentality ruling the day here.

Sorry bro, but I call bullshit. The reason why we are able to do the types of courses of fire in the military is because of the no bull shit safety culture. Safety is drilled into our heads from the get go. Tier 1, 2 etc schools and training is not a negligence or sacrifice of safety. These individuals are considered professionals and aren’t out there flagging each other, having ND’s and walking around with rounds in the chamber they forgot about. They’re not finger fucking their trigger and running around with the whole “this is my safety” (motioning to their trigger finger) mindset. Theyre able to do what they do because they are safe.

Professional schools in the Military have no bull shit safety policies. ND, you’re gone. Flag someone with your muzzle, your gone. Period, no discussion. Zero Tolerance.

Don’t like the knee jerk Zero Tolerance policy? Too fucking bad. You’ve had your time to get it right and it didn’t happen, so someone else had to step in and do it for you. The time for discussion is over. I can guarantee you that if I had my name, or Companies name all over a match and they ran a fucking shit show of a match, it would stop.

You’re right, not all safety incidents are equal. IMO, ND’s, Flagging individuals (loaded or unloaded), dropping weapons systems off of obstacles, and leaving the line with a loaded firearm are all DQ’s.

The rest is open for discussion.

 

[sabrecross]

Sorry bro, but I call bullshit. The reason why we are able to do the types of courses of fire in the military is because of the no bull shit safety culture. Safety is drilled into our heads from the get go. Tier 1, 2 etc schools and training is not a negligence or sacrifice of safety. These individuals are considered professionals and aren’t out there flagging each other, having ND’s and walking around with rounds in the chamber they forgot about. They’re not finger fucking their trigger and running around with the whole “this is my safety” (motioning to their trigger finger) mindset. Theyre able to do what they do because they are safe.

Professional schools in the Military have no bull shit safety policies. ND, you’re gone. Flag someone with your muzzle, your gone. Period, no discussion. Zero Tolerance.

Don’t like the knee jerk Zero Tolerance policy? Too fucking bad. You’ve had your time to get it right and it didn’t happen, so someone else had to step in and do it for you. The time for discussion is over. I can guarantee you that if I had my name, or Companies name all over a match and they ran a fucking shit show of a match, it would stop.

You’re right, not all safety incidents are equal. IMO, ND’s, Flagging individuals (loaded or unloaded), dropping weapons systems off of obstacles, and leaving the line with a loaded firearm are all DQ’s.

The rest is open for discussion.

well stated. Could not have said it better, myself.

 

[LawnMM]

Hi,

Question for those of you who run match(es) under the Precision Rifle Series.

What does the PRS itself provide to you in terms of support and operational requirements?

Why can ROs (Not scorekeepers) not be supplied by the PRS instead of MDs having to rely on volunteers?

Here is the current sponsor page of the PRS and I just do not see why the series itself could not afford to supply ROs.
https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/partners

Here is the current membership page of the PRS...
https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/profiles/shooters

Pretty much every other "Sport" organization provides certain support and operational procedures to the events being held under its' affiliation/name.

Sincerely,
Theis

Easy now, easy now, we don't want to place unreasonable expectations on a series raking in six figures a season for the privilege of posting scores on a website and posting on Instagram who the official copy machine of the PRS is...?

 

[Daps!]

I’m astounded at the reaction to this video. People are attacking the guy who took the video, criticizing the RO, and basically trying to justify that the ND wasn’t that big of a deal. The ND issue is a growing one and needs to be addressed. My biggest issues are the shooter put his finger on the trigger and had an ND. There’s no other way to spin it and he’s 100% wrong. Worse in my opinion is he knew he did and and not only didn’t own up to it but actually took the point when offered by the RO. That dude has a SERIOUS integrity issue and should not be competing.

 

[LawnMM]

Like the man said, you're catering to the lowest common denominator.

It's probably one or two guys in a hundred but they're out there.

 

[regnar375]

Sounds easy but look around, it's a struggle just getting a single RO/RSO whatever at each stage as it is, your solution is "just double that"...

Not saying you're wrong but I am saying it ain't that simple. There's a shortage of people who want to dedicate a weekend of sitting in the sun to other people's enjoyment.

Here's more food for thought, maybe we need to ban two stage triggers. Ever pull through the first stage and miss the wall? If we're being absolutist then you have an ND on your hands and that guy should pack up and head home.

Maybe we shouldn't do any standing offhand at all. Can't tell you how many times I've squeezed a shot off a hair early or late on that as my crosshairs drifted across the target. The intent was to squeeze off the shot when the crosshairs were on target though, so wouldn't a miss in that case be an ND? I pulled the trigger later or earlier than intended, didn't I?

I'm being ridiculous to try and make a point. I'm not saying be unsafe or give people slack for shit that's going to hurt somebody. I just think it's a little less black and white than we want it to be. In the context of the standing offhand miss:

Is anybody going to argue the intent isn't to squeeze the trigger as the crosshairs pass over the target while you're trying to stabilize a 20lb+ rifle offhand? Then by our absolutist definition of ND if you miss, you ND'd, right? You pulled the trigger earlier/later than intended. Anybody ever been DQ'd for missing a standing offhand shot?

Not that I've ever seen or heard of. Why? Because we're following the safety rules, right? Treating it as if it's loaded, we're not muzzling anything we aren't willing to destroy because it's the target and dirt in the sight picture, finger is on the trigger because we ARE prepared to fire, and unless the MD is a fool we have a good backstop for the target.

So if a guy squeezes early on a standing offhand shot, or late, and misses...we don't DQ them. Now let's say noob is on target ready to go and pulls through the first stage and cranks the round when he intended to pause at the wall, shit he may even hit the target, but because we're absolutist on this we're going to DQ him from the whole match?

I'm interested in good discussion and if you argue zero tolerance is the standard, that's fine, but I think we're overlooking stuff that's done constantly while we pretend we're so matter of fact about this.

Round accountability, important I agree. ROs didn't see where it went. Maybe it left the range area, maybe it went into the tree or juniper next to the target. Are we going to DQ every shooter who looses a round in vegetation or wet grass?

Safety is the most important thing, for sure, but absolutism only works if you do it absolutely, and we fuckin don't. When I shot at gunsite a couple years ago at the NRL match guys were losing rounds in vegetation constantly. "No hit, no call."

Maybe those rounds left the range, maybe the guy had an extra rev dialed and lobbed it long, nobody was DQ'd. Maybe they should have been. I'm just trying to bring up discussion points.

This guy ND'd, 100%, if we're going to DQ him, let's do it, but let's address some of the other stuff too then. Let's discuss how to maintain that 100% round accountability.

For the love of God, let's address why it's happening at all... we're doing too much too fast. Slow it down and make the targets harder to hit instead of asking people to be safe with a loaded rifle engaging 5 targets at 5 ranges from three positions in 90 seconds while doing a fucking handstand or some other ridiculous shit that is in no way "practical."

I agree with you mostly. I think

This should not be about the video.

Look at the core issue

The video is the core issue!!

 

[Bradu]

That probably shouldn't be a range....

Unless it's a baffle range, then it's a moot point.

Then the range I go to needs shut down. They close off most of the lanes except for matches but they have had a house behind the berm hit. The house was built long after the range was there but it is back there.

 

[Dthomas3523]

While I agree some stages are designed unsafe (finale cooler stage) and those need to be addressed and deleted, I don’t think we are doing too much under a short amount of time. Generally speaking.

Not all stages are designed to be cleanable. Some are designed to be cleanable, but only when you perform perfectly and efficiently.

Responsibility is on the shooter to decide if he/she can move fast enough to safely clean a stage. If you can’t, it’s not a big deal. You look and see if top shooters cleaned it. If they did, you know you have some practice to do. If they didn’t, you can see if you were close to their round count to gauge your efficiency.

Same thing when an MD tells you that you can setup however you like on a stage. You prone out and realize you can’t see the target from prone.

You made a choice to try to easier (and right) and most stable position.

Now you need to decide, is the target actually not visible and I need to move my position up, or do I take some time and adjust my prone position?

I’ve shot the reverse frustration ladder at RO three times now. A couple people have cleaned it, but very few. I have made 100% hits of shots taken (not bragging), but I usually only get 4/5 shots out of the 8 possible targets.

I know how fast I can move and still be safe as well as hit targets with my current skill level. I make the choice not to let the timer destroy me like it did the person in this particular video.

The timer is intended to stress you out. You are expected to know your own limits and stay within them.

Generally speaking, these matches should mimic real world hunting or combat scenarios.

You may only get 60 seconds when looking at 4 pigs in a field in real life. Are you just going to spray bullets downranfe unsafely? Or are you going to make the one or two shots you get off count?

Same concept here.

 

[savagesniper917]

I agree with you mostly. I think

The video is the core issue!!

No 3 NDs at 1 match on 1 weekend is the core issue safety is just a nice thought most shooters have watching people transition on barricades is frightening

 

[LawnMM]

"I know how fast I can move and still be safe as well as hit targets with my current skill level. I make the choice not to let the timer destroy me like it did the person in this particular video."

That's ideal, the problem is a lot of people don't do it and so you can't count on it. You have to address the lowest common denominator. That's the guy who lets nerves get the better of him and oh shit...look out everybody.

You can press people and add stress without using movement and the clock to do it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

"I know how fast I can move and still be safe as well as hit targets with my current skill level. I make the choice not to let the timer destroy me like it did the person in this particular video."

That's ideal, the problem is a lot of people don't do it and so you can't count on it. You have to address the lowest common denominator. That's the guy who lets nerves get the better of him and oh shit...look out everybody.

You can press people and add stress without using movement and the clock to do it.

Then those people get a match DQ, go home, and figure out why they don’t know what their own limits are.

This is a game played with weapons.

The most efficient way to train for stress is with a timer. This is also the safest way to train.

Don’t want movement and a clock? Carry your unsafe ass to F class.

You need rules for the lowest demoninator, but you can control what that denominator is. Start losing your mind under time, gtfo and come back when you know your own limits.

If I told you “this stage is 6 seconds. You need to set up your rifle and get off 3 shots.” You look at me like I was crazy and tell me to fuck off.

Zero difference in telling someone you have 1 minute and 16 shots from 5 positions.

If a person is too inexperienced, unsafe, or too stupid to figure this out, then a game with weapons is not for them.

This ain’t equal opportunity gaming.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If you don’t know what your limits are (not talking to anyone specific), then you should NOT be at a match under time.

You should be on practice range dryfiring under time.

Before anyone brings up my opinion on triggers being too light, here is the difference:

At a certain point a trigger is set too light for most anyone to control safely. You are giving yourself no choice to have a high percentage chance of controlling your trigger safely.

When you’re under the clock, you decide how fast or slow you want to move. The clock doesn’t have a gun to your head.

 

[LawnMM]

Then those people get a match DQ, go home, and figure out why they don’t know what their own limits are.

This is a game played with weapons.

The most efficient way to train for stress is with a timer. This is also the safest way to train.

Don’t want movement and a clock? Carry your unsafe ass to F class.

You need rules for the lowest demoninator, but you can control what that denominator is. Start losing your mind under time, gtfo and come back when you know your own limits.

If I told you “this stage is 6 seconds. You need to set up your rifle and get off 3 shots.” You look at me like I was crazy and tell me to fuck off.

Zero difference in telling someone you have 1 minute and 16 shots from 5 positions.

If a person is too inexperienced, unsafe, or too stupid to figure this out, then a game with weapons is not for them.

This ain’t equal opportunity gaming.

Dial the chest thumping down, I'm not the guy in the video.

Second, there's a huge difference. Experienced shooters know stages aren't always designed to be complete-able. Sometimes it's a little mind fuck and you can't even see the 5th target, and people will burn the whole clock looking for a target positioned so it can't be seen.

We have new shooters at every match. We WANT new shooters at every match. You can't design the whole match for the top 30% and then DQ the other 70% if they fail. You're essentially setting newer and less experienced guys up to fail then penalizing them, that's fucked up.

There's no "new PRS shooter orientation" class where they go over the finer points of safety and what's possible in your 90-120 seconds.

We just assume everyone is squared away and that's rarely the case. New guy is gonna assume if he times out it's because he's not moving fast enough, not because the stage is designed to time everybody out but the top 4 guys that showed up that weekend.

A timer isn't the safest way to add stress but it's certainly EASIER than adding more targets or making everybody engage smaller targets than the typical 2MOA positional shots.

I don't have a problem with the timer or movement, but saying fuck everybody who's not at my level is ignorant and dismissive, not to mention arrogant...as if I've always been at whatever level I'm currently performing at and arrived there on the first attempt.

Like Ruebenski said, you have to push for excellence while expecting and allowing for people to fall short, safely and to a point.

"Fuck everybody that can't hack it," is as much an attitude issue as saying NDs are no big deal.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This is where another problem lies. No new shooter orientation. Huge, huge problem.

These weapons are insanely destructive. Like, get hit with one, and you’re gonna die. Better hope someone has a tourniquet if you catch on in an extremely. Catch one in chest cavity, better hope it’s a through and through and on the upper right side and someone has a couple chest seals. Point being, you’re likely dead, regardless of where you are hit.

Now, we not only allow bare basic beginners to shoot a game with these weapons, we actively encourage it and *hope* they don’t do something stupid.

Got news for everyone, this is a hobby (and training for some). This will NEVER, I repeat NEVER, get to the point that it’s on TV or there’s big money in this. Unless you also instruct or own some sort of sales company in the industry, you will NEVER make a profit from shooting these matches.

There never was, is, or will be a “professional PRS shooter.” There’s just gonna be people that are really, really good at this hobby.

So, it is much, much, much more important to bring new shooters into the sport safely. You don’t necessarily have to DQ them. When they start losing their minds on the clock, stop them, or stop the clock. Either let them shoot slower not on the clock and give them the points, or tell them they are done “officially” for the stage and let them still shoot it for experience. They ain’t breaking the top 50% their first few matches, who cares if they get more time.

Or, set up larger targets or give more time to lesser shooters. That’s also an option.

But dumbing the entire game (with weapons) down is not going to work.

I believe most ranges or MD’s should require an intro to PRS course if you cannot show that you are a seasoned competitor. Couple hours of explaining things. Hell, I’ll donate my time anywhere within driving distance to help with this.

You can also add in a “new shooter category” in which they don’t have a time limit their first few matches and while they have scores, they have an aterisk next to it or are now eligible for prizes.

 

[LawnMM]

You can also add in a “new shooter category” in which they don’t have a time limit their first few matches and while they have scores, they have an aterisk next to it or are now eligible for prizes.

You touched on something there, it's part of the problem, we're lumping EVERYBODY into the same category/skill level.

I think we need three "classes" with different entry fees, time limits, and expectations. For example new guy forgets to pull bolt back before transitioning, coach him to do it right and expect to have to watch him closer.

Jersey shooter does the same thing? Stage DQ, higher expectations for more experienced guys. I keep hearing some of the Jerseys complain about payouts and shit, fine, you're a "pro" now, if you win it's a $2k payday, so the entry fee is $500 for "Pro" class. Say $250 for intermediate/sport/semi pro whatever you want to call it, $100 for new/amateur shooters.

Maybe let amateur/sport do the prize table and pro is payout only. He who dares, wins. $500 entry fee and payouts for top ten only. Might eliminate some of the prize table drama.

 

[HogsLife]

I really don't know what you're calling bullshit on? Who's saying NDs are okay? Why is your opening statement,

"Sorry bro, but I call bullshit. "


And your closing statement,

"You’re right, not all safety incidents are equal."

This is just a symptom of people arguing on the internet. They sense you don't agree with you and argue out of principle.


And one more thing, who the fuck do you think you're talking to here?

"Don’t like the knee jerk Zero Tolerance policy? Too fucking bad. You’ve had your time to get it right and it didn’t happen, so someone else had to step in and do it for you. "

Me?

Lol, slow your roll brotha. That last statement was not directed at you. It was a generalized statement directed at the MD’s and RO’s that are failing at making Safety priority #1. Fact is, this seems to be an ongoing issue. And guaranteed either someone is going to get hurt, or hopefully, PRS / NRL comes down hard on everyone. And I guarantee, when that happens, the bitch fest is gonna happen and all these MD’s and RO’s that didn’t take it seriously when they had the opportunity to do something about it on their own are gonna he the ones whining the most.

 

[Colt45irish]

Video seems to be down. Was it taken off YouTube?

 

[LawnMM]

Still working on my end, he's probably getting death threats by now for suggesting there's any improvement to be made ??‍

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yes the shooter knew that something went wrong but was he not aiming down range where targets were? was he not on the glass looking through the optic AT said targets?

I think he pulled his shot way earlier but he didn't sent a round in the wrong direction.

I think of a match were it was a timed event and the whole team had to have their shots off in a certain time. If you couldn't find the targets fast enough you just sent them down range at whatever you could find. Was this reason to be sent home? Shooting at the dirt as fast as you can because you screwed the pooch and lost your target through the scope and wanted your team to be able to make up the points. Or should you just burn up all the time by searching for the correct target?

Different opinion of what is the correct answer I imagine. I do agree however he should not have taken the point in no way shape or form. One thing I do appreciate about this sport and all shooting sports for the most part is people are honest. I would have said no call and I know I pulled the shot and not center punched it.

Hard to center punch it when you hold left edge ALL day.

I totally missed the part here about the team firing shots.

Again, easy answer here. You find your targets properly, and engage them.

You don’t just send rounds downrange for the shit of it.

The timer isn’t holding a gun to your head. Not all stages are intended to be cleaned within the allotted time.

If I’m on glass and people are obviously just slinging let when they are “kinda” on target trying to score lucky point, best case is I’m stopping timer, giving warning, and letting them pick back up. If attitude is given, stage or match DQ.

This is just as unsafe as other violations. If you’re moving the rifle fast and just trying to get lucky points, you could easily slip while tracking the rifle too fast. Now a round just left the range.

 

[Dthomas3523]

So, answer is, you eat up your time properly finding targets and safely engaging them.

Either you fucked up and lost targets and need to find them again, or stage wasn’t meant to be cleaned.

Either way, zero reasons to sling lead into the dirt.

 

[LawnMM]

For some levity...

 

[Rugster]

2 brief thoughts-

1. I would venture to say a number of the folks who are very boisterous in this thread regarding safety do not carry medical in their pack. If you are one of those people, this is your wake up call.
2. It was mentioned to treat safety differently based on jersey vs new shooter. I vehemently disagree with this. Safety (a high level) should be expected from all shooters.

 

[Cjwise5]

Video seems to be down. Was it taken off YouTube?

It’s still up on the Precision Rifle Network YouTube channel

 

[Dthomas3523]

2 brief thoughts-

1. I would venture to say a number of the folks who are very boisterous in this thread regarding safety do not carry medical in their pack. If you are one of those people, this is your wake up call.
2. It was mentioned to treat safety differently based on jersey vs new shooter. I vehemently disagree with this. Safety (a high level) should be expected from all shooters.

Didn’t see which post said to treat safety different. I may have missed that.

What I suggested, there is nothing wrong with stopping a new shooter when you see them about to do something unsafe or getting too carried away in the timer.

You can stop them, stop the clock, coach them, then turn the clock back on. You can stop them, tell them the rest of the shots are zero, but allow them to continue the stage under no time for experience. Or you could just stop the clock, let them shoot the rest for points without time as they aren’t going to be placing high anyway.

If the new shooter has a safety violation, rules are rules and safety is safety. See you next match.

But, there is absolutely nothing wrong with totally stop a new shooter before they develop bad habits, and get them straightened out.

 

[Rugster]

I wasn’t referring to something you said. Someone else said to coach one, and give the other a stage DQ. That’s going to create a ton of gray area on who is a new shooter, etc. Give both the same treatment, if that’s a stage DQ then so be it. Both of them would need to learn the lesson. A stage DQ is a SMALL price to pay regardless.

 

[Rugster]

Read the first sentence of my post....

 

[Dthomas3523]

I wasn’t referring to something you said. Someone else said to coach one, and give the other a stage DQ. That’s going to create a ton of gray area on who is a new shooter, etc. Give both the same treatment, if that’s a stage DQ then so be it. Both of them would need to learn the lesson. A stage DQ is a SMALL price to pay regardless.

Once the infraction has occurred, yes, I agree.

But I’ll definitely stop a new shooter for coaching for potential safety stuff, or if they are just screwing a stage up with their position and such.

I won’t stop a seasoned shooter to say “hey man, you look like you’re about stress out.” Or “hey man, try this bag instead of that.”

 

[Dthomas3523]

Read the first sentence of my post....

You edited it. I deleted once I saw your clarification.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, once I’ve helped that new shooter a few times, if it seems like they are just not taking the advice and doing their own thing, I stop as well. Whatever happens after that is on them (as long as it’s not an obvious safety infraction that’s about to occurs. Then you stop anyone and everyone before it happens).

 

[LawnMM]

I vehemently disagree with this. Safety (a high level) should be expected from all shooters.

The beauty of discussion, we're free to vehemently disagree with each other in the interest of progress.

I wasn’t referring to something you said. Someone else said to coach one, and give the other a stage DQ. That’s going to create a ton of gray area on who is a new shooter, etc. Give both the same treatment, if that’s a stage DQ then so be it. Both of them would need to learn the lesson. A stage DQ is a SMALL price to pay regardless.

There's no gray area if you register to shoot by class. If you're a beginner who forgets bolt back on movement you get coaching and a warning, if you have a Jersey on and are registered in the professional class there's no gray area.

I disagree, but not vehemently, that stage DQs don't make sense. Calling any violation a match DQ is absolutist and it punishes newer shooters for shit they have likely never had explained to them.

I absolutely draw a distinction between suitcase carrying a rifle to the line with a mag inserted done by an experienced guy vs a new guy at his first match with zero training or instruction getting antsy and forgetting to pull his bolt back before moving. He didn't flag anyone, shit the whole bolt back thing is new, never heard that at a match ten years ago, maybe I wasn't paying attention?

I think it's a good idea so if somebody does get sloppy we have extra insurance, but sending a new guy home for it on its own seems overly harsh if he's keeping the muzzle in a safe direction and his finger off the trigger, etc.

Argue all you want, in my opinion some of this stuff is way more egregious and dangerous to other shooters than some other stuff. Being that this is still free America, we're all entitled to our opinions.

We don't put everybody in prison for 25yrs regardless of the crime they commit, I don't think kicking somebody out of the match regardless of what on a list of things you could do wrong actually occurred.

I'm not saying give video guy a pass, I'm saying it's not black and white and booting anyone and everyone regardless of circumstance is silly. We need a better classification system so we know who needs extra help and guidance and who should know better.