Where did I say anything about everything being a match DQ? An ND should be a match DQ no question. I believe there are different levels of severity as far as infractions and some warrant stage DQ and some warrant match DQ. Not sure if you’re addressing me with those comments but I haven’t said anything to the contrary.
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PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!
- Thread starter Cjwise5
- Start date
Also, no one is getting DQ’d for suitcase carry unless they have been warned multiple times.
Stop using examples that don’t matter.
An ND is a match DQ for anyone regardless of skill level.
The 4 safety rules of firearms are known to all. Break them, and gtfo until next time. It’s covered in the safety brief.
Stop using examples that don’t matter.
An ND is a match DQ for anyone regardless of skill level.
The 4 safety rules of firearms are known to all. Break them, and gtfo until next time. It’s covered in the safety brief.
No one has said “any violation” is a match Dq.
The only two that are:
Flagging
ND’s
Beginners know not to point their muzzle at someone. And they know the gun should only go off when they tell it to.
I don’t care if you just started shooting yesterday. Do either of those and fuck you until next match. Call it whatever you want.
Again, if your kid gets shot because a beginner had an ND, you won’t be stepping up to defend them.
The only two that are:
Flagging
ND’s
Beginners know not to point their muzzle at someone. And they know the gun should only go off when they tell it to.
I don’t care if you just started shooting yesterday. Do either of those and fuck you until next match. Call it whatever you want.
Again, if your kid gets shot because a beginner had an ND, you won’t be stepping up to defend them.
The solution to the problem is easy IMO.
Implementing the solution on the other hand is another story.
Safety needs to become the number one priority to all shooters. All shooters need to feel obligated AND to comfortable point out any and all safety concerns REAL TIME.
The aviation industry learned this years ago and others organizations followed. The results speak for themselves. Industries that have embraced the safety culture have seen dramatic drop in injuries and accidents. Look up “high reliability organization”.
What they found was that for a very high percentage of the accidents/injuries was that there were red flags that people saw people were afraid to speak up for whatever reason. Once they were able to create an environment where anyone from the new guy on his first day on the job to the CEO could call a “cease fire” without fear of retribution the rate of accidents and injuries dropped. Anyone on the production line is obligated to stop the line if they see anything that is wrong.
Right now the majority of the shooters are either afraid or unwilling to call a cease-fire if they see something that might be wrong. This has to change and it has to come from the top.
DQ’ ing a shooter here or there won’t make things any safer in the long run (not saying shooters shouldn’t be DQ for safety violations).
If anyone sees anything potentially unsafe they should immediately call a cease-fire. This would probably necessitate a rule that if everything were found to be safe the shooter would have the choice of picking up the stage where they left off or starting the stage over.
Bottom line, Everyone has to buy in to the safety culture.
Implementing the solution on the other hand is another story.
Safety needs to become the number one priority to all shooters. All shooters need to feel obligated AND to comfortable point out any and all safety concerns REAL TIME.
The aviation industry learned this years ago and others organizations followed. The results speak for themselves. Industries that have embraced the safety culture have seen dramatic drop in injuries and accidents. Look up “high reliability organization”.
What they found was that for a very high percentage of the accidents/injuries was that there were red flags that people saw people were afraid to speak up for whatever reason. Once they were able to create an environment where anyone from the new guy on his first day on the job to the CEO could call a “cease fire” without fear of retribution the rate of accidents and injuries dropped. Anyone on the production line is obligated to stop the line if they see anything that is wrong.
Right now the majority of the shooters are either afraid or unwilling to call a cease-fire if they see something that might be wrong. This has to change and it has to come from the top.
DQ’ ing a shooter here or there won’t make things any safer in the long run (not saying shooters shouldn’t be DQ for safety violations).
If anyone sees anything potentially unsafe they should immediately call a cease-fire. This would probably necessitate a rule that if everything were found to be safe the shooter would have the choice of picking up the stage where they left off or starting the stage over.
Bottom line, Everyone has to buy in to the safety culture.
You should be getting DQ'd for suitcase carry, that's way more dangerous than some of the other offenses we're discussing.
Examples that don't matter, who decides that? You? I must have missed your election as the topics Lord and moderator.
Ruebenski made the argument that stage DQs don't make sense for safety violations, sounds to me like advocating match DQs for those offenses, not to mention the rest of the "one and done" crowd that's weighed in on this.
You just said nobody gets DQ'd for suitcase carry, which is flagging, then said anybody flagging gets the fuck you until next match, right? So which is it?
Excellent point, I think it also highlights why maybe focusing the RO on safety instead of spotting or scoring makes sense.
If you rotate who's spotting, who's scoring, who's shooting, etc. it makes it difficult for people who are friends to bump each others scores, which is a concern.
If you aren't always scoring or spotting when buddy shoots, hard to give him a consistent leg up. If we outsource spotting/scoring to the squad it frees up the RO to watch ONLY for safety issues.
It's also been my experience that people are more incensed by anything amounting to cheating than a safety issue. There's been a cheating discussion or two over the years and it gets people fired up more than safety violations.
I think that also argues in favor of making ROs safety guys only and letting the squad rotate the other duties. If you aren't spotting for your buddy, you can't bump his score anyway, if you're scoring then somebody else is watching the shots, the constant rotating duties add some security for honest scoring.
I think everyone agrees we'd rather have the RO focusing on safety. If people are nervous about speaking up on a safety issue we need to fix it. If we put the RO on safety exclusively then we have at least one person dedicated to what's important, and if people try to game the scoring they're more likely to be called out for that than safety. Might be a better approach.
I’m done with you as well. Keep arguing for the sake of arguing.
When people see you attempt to suitcase carry, they tell you not to. If you’re an asshole and do it anyway, you’re gonna get a DQ.
When you forget to open a bolt, you get told to open the bolt and you open it.. Happens all day, everyday.
Again, like rubenski that you keep quoting, you’re arguing to be a dickhead at this point.
Go take the clock away, make every stage the same, and keep your 4oz tiggers. Let’s turn this into standing benchrest.
As others seem to have mentioned already, a trigger pull weight regulation is not going to put a stop to negligent discharges in a shooting sport that puts shooters under time pressure and has them changing positions and targets. The club matches I attend require bolt back until sighted on target, and that should prevent negligent discharges in theory, but people make mistakes.
By this theory, ND’s must happen while hunting or in combat all the time.
But this rarely happens. The timer doesn’t hold a gun to your head and make you pull that trigger.
Look at the video several times. The shooter was barely touching trigger when it went off each time.
Obviously he should have kept his finger away from trigger, but either a 2 stage or a heavier single stage would have made this much, much harder to make that ND.
There’s also a reason combat and hunting triggers are 1.5lb and above. It’s for this exact situation.
This game is supposed to mimic hunting and combat. That was the whole purpose.
What we are seeing is benchrest style parts being added to an action game. It’s not going to end well.
This game is supposed to mimic hunting and combat. That was the whole purpose.
What we are seeing is benchrest style parts being added to an action game. It’s not going to end well.
If you can't handle a grown up conversation without whining and name calling go sit at the kids table.
I think at this point, as Ruebenski has stated, we’re all on here “violently” agreeing with each other lol. I think for the post part we’re all pretty much on the same page.
1. Safety should be priority #1.
2. Honor System should be reserved for scoring, not safety. Individuals are more likely to call someone on cheating than they are on safety.
3. RO’s / RSO’s primary duty is safety
4. Have shooters handle spotting / scoring to free up RO’s to monitor safety.
5. IMO the folllowing should be match DQ’s.
- ND’s
-Flagging
-leaving the line with a rifle in anything other than Condition 4.
-dropping your rifle (whether or not it breaks 180 or not) .
-integrity violations
Other offenses can be warnings, stage DQ’s, points reductions, etc. whatever the MD decides.
I really don’t see how this is such a big deal. Pretty simple really.
EDIT : MD designates a weapon staging area for each stage in a location in which muzzles are down range, and shooters do not have to walk on front of rifles. This area is also designated to do rifle / scope maintenance.
Shooter get his rifle from the staging area in condition 4 and walks to COF staging area muzzle up and down range.
Once at FP, inserts magazine, goes Condition 1 and shoots course of fire.
Once COF is complete, unload show clear command is gives. RO inspects rifle to ensure it’s in Condition 4 and inserts chamber flag.
Shooter picks up rifle, muzzle up, carry’s it to rifle staging area and stages his rifle.
Not understanding why that is so difficult to implement........
1. Safety should be priority #1.
2. Honor System should be reserved for scoring, not safety. Individuals are more likely to call someone on cheating than they are on safety.
3. RO’s / RSO’s primary duty is safety
4. Have shooters handle spotting / scoring to free up RO’s to monitor safety.
5. IMO the folllowing should be match DQ’s.
- ND’s
-Flagging
-leaving the line with a rifle in anything other than Condition 4.
-dropping your rifle (whether or not it breaks 180 or not) .
-integrity violations
Other offenses can be warnings, stage DQ’s, points reductions, etc. whatever the MD decides.
I really don’t see how this is such a big deal. Pretty simple really.
EDIT : MD designates a weapon staging area for each stage in a location in which muzzles are down range, and shooters do not have to walk on front of rifles. This area is also designated to do rifle / scope maintenance.
Shooter get his rifle from the staging area in condition 4 and walks to COF staging area muzzle up and down range.
Once at FP, inserts magazine, goes Condition 1 and shoots course of fire.
Once COF is complete, unload show clear command is gives. RO inspects rifle to ensure it’s in Condition 4 and inserts chamber flag.
Shooter picks up rifle, muzzle up, carry’s it to rifle staging area and stages his rifle.
Not understanding why that is so difficult to implement........
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Agreed.
Everyone is so focused on the game (points) for a hobby that is never going to be a full time job.
When in reality, it’s just a rifle match. No one is going to give a shit tomorrow who won. In reality, we should be competing against ourselves. Did I miss a shot today? Yes. Well, I obviously have things to work on. If I hadn’t have missed, no one could beat me.
Instead, people are clawing and fighting for every point.
Make the RO’s responsible for running the stage and safety. If there are enough RO’s, they can spot. If not, it’s on the squad.
Does that open up the door for more cheating? Yes it does. But I’d rather someone go home as a cheater with no integrity, than to not go home at all.
I think that's a damn nice summary of the positive ideas coming out of this. Except staging rifles muzzle up, most places don't have the racks or the means to transport them out to all the firing points.
I'd settle for grounding them in a safe direction, maybe marked with tape so no ambiguity.
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@Dthomas3523 you have totally fucked this thread up over what amounts to simple safety rules. You can't just tell someone you are done with them in the middle of a simple debate you have motherfucked. Show a little respect and know your audience. The bottom line if a particular discipline in the shooting sports isn't safe than stay away from it for your own safety. That is rule #1. People that keep going back think it is going to happen to the other guy. To keep going back sort of makes you responsible too. After all, you are informed and aware of the danger.
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Guess what, done with you too.
Guys want to keep “what iffing” things to death. And I’m not going to keep arguing. Simply going to block them so I don’t have to see this shit in my feed.
“What if suitcase”
“What If bolt not back”
“What is shirt catches trigger”
“What if guy is new”
“What if I’m on target but a bomb goes off and I touch the trigger off.”
“What if mechanical failure”
“What if he’s a nice guy and didn’t mean to.”
Safety is safety and not up for nitpicky bullshit debate.
I agree, so long as that area is in a location with muzzles pointed down range, and so as shooters don’t have to constantly walk in front of them. That location can also be used to do any types of “maintenance” to their rifle / scope during the match.
And this summary should end this thread. With the exception as stated above, muzzles down range. I don't really want to go back to stacking swivels.
And this summary should end this thread. With the exception as stated above, muzzles down range. I don't really want to go back to stacking swivels.
I agree, and edited the post to reflect. ??
When I first got into this game...which doesn't feel like that long ago but looking back it's been a while. The ratio of experienced shooters to new shooters was probably 20 to 1. The experienced guys would help the new guy sort their shit out. It was that camaraderie that pulled me into this sport. Everyone for the most part was always willing to give advice and help you along the way. What the sport should be about IMO.
Now fast forward to the PRS, one of the rules were you could not help each other out. I had a long conversation with Rich (incase those that don't know he and Kevin were the original founders of the PRS). I told him that I did not like that rule, if I could not help others get to the same place I was I did not want to be part of the sport. Turned out it was bad wording and should have said no coaching while on the line.
With all the new shooters and everyone worried about points for the series the camaraderie is not what it once was. The sport is definitely not the same.
I know what the hell does any of that have to do with safety.... if you have 100 friends at a match instead of 100 people you are a more careful about what you do. Kind of like working for a small company vs a big one where you are just a number.
I have said enough about safety in the other threads just want throw this out there.
I’m just struggling to see the the conflict here. Every other shooting “ sport” or event has a zero tolerance policy on NDs and blatant safety violations. Classes included. Shit happens because people are human. Avoiding accidents and negligence with proper safety rules that are enforced is the ONLY way. If you don’t get that then you ARE the problem.
I do find some of the comments interesting... Mainly because other sports I have participated in (IDPA, USPSA, 3-gun) have the same rules for everyone. ND equals Match DQ no matter if it safely hits berm or not, sweep yourself or others DQ, manipulate firearms outside designated areas DQ, have magazine or ammo in those designated safe areas DQ. Move between positions with finger in trigger 1 warning second time DQ (this one could be how bolt back infractions are handled). The rules apply to all from new shooter to the best shooters. In those sports there are 2 type of people those that have been DQd and those that will be.
The sport needs designated ROs for safety infractions and the squad can score and call shots.
The sport needs designated ROs for safety infractions and the squad can score and call shots.
NDs happen but what matters is the ramifications. Is it the same across the board? Safe to say no.
1. Some people don’t know their weapon system and are a potato with respect to handling.
2. Either enforce rules uniformly or don’t have them.
3. Stage design doesn’t factor into it be it a single rope or level concrete pad. You own your weapon system and should know how to maneuver it.
1. Some people don’t know their weapon system and are a potato with respect to handling.
2. Either enforce rules uniformly or don’t have them.
3. Stage design doesn’t factor into it be it a single rope or level concrete pad. You own your weapon system and should know how to maneuver it.
2 RO's per stage minimum. One on glass, one on the shooter. They need to know thre rules and enforce them. Sometine back on page brought up NFL refs. Thr difference here is the NFL reps are paid professionals. maybe it's time for PRS, the MD's and the range owners to come off a little money and start paying for qualified RO's and not rely on volunteers.
I haven't read through the whole thread, only the 1st page and honestly, I agree with this ^^^.
The shooter in position and running through the stage. That "ND" is nothing more than a miss. If a miss down range is dangerous, then its the range setup/safety template that is needs correction, not the shooter.
If he was standing at port arms and it went off then both the shooter AND RO need a kick in the bum.
The only questionable thing on that video is his integrity for accepting the point.
Unfortunately for your point of view, the PRS rules are written clearly, and this is an ND. The question is not whether it is or isn’t, the question is what do we do about these types of safety issues?
You clearly don't understand what an ND is.
What the Fuck are you talking about... no one that's correct no one can account for that round and you call that a miss. You sir are a big part of the problem.
That is the fucking problem, this is not paintball we are playing.
I have said it before look it up, this sport as a whole, we are lucky no one has been killed with attitudes like this it's not a matter of if. It is when someone gets killed. The lawyers will have a field day. Look at all the ammo that has been given.
Wake up people before it's too late.
I thought I was done with this thread.
You sir are a dangerous fuck.
Find another hobby.
Let’s what if a little for safety discussion.
Say the shooter was on target and meant to pull trigger.
If I’m behind glass and there is no reason (heavy foliage, brush, grass, etc) I cant see your impacts. After 1-3 (situation depending) no calls, I’m telling you to check your dope. If you yell back it’s good, and another no call......I’m stopping you.
Depending on rules and such, we can check your zero and dope or you’re done. Just depends on rules and situation.
No accountability for rounds = not worth the risk. We take a training time out and fix it.
Say the shooter was on target and meant to pull trigger.
If I’m behind glass and there is no reason (heavy foliage, brush, grass, etc) I cant see your impacts. After 1-3 (situation depending) no calls, I’m telling you to check your dope. If you yell back it’s good, and another no call......I’m stopping you.
Depending on rules and such, we can check your zero and dope or you’re done. Just depends on rules and situation.
No accountability for rounds = not worth the risk. We take a training time out and fix it.
Wait, I've been wanting to use this one...
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Sounds like a squared away club, wish ya'll were in Colorado! Even if you are a dickhead ?
“Depending on the weapon used, an ND can either create or destroy a family” - mech eng
In all seriousness:
I’m late to the party but wanted to provide my useless input.. So Im an engineer who fabricates offshore oil rigs for a living, sometimes we work over 100k man hours per week(back when oil was high at least)! We are lieneant on some safety issues but some are immediate grounds for termination. One example is working at heights without being tied off. Why do we fire so many people for not tying off? Maybe because it’s one of the top causes of construction deaths each year? Or maybe it’s because the consequences are so grave. We have a saying at work: “i would rather see you unemployed than dead”. I think this type of commitment to safety needs to and should be applied to firearms. A line has to be drawn somewhere, why not on the conservative side?
In all seriousness:
I’m late to the party but wanted to provide my useless input.. So Im an engineer who fabricates offshore oil rigs for a living, sometimes we work over 100k man hours per week(back when oil was high at least)! We are lieneant on some safety issues but some are immediate grounds for termination. One example is working at heights without being tied off. Why do we fire so many people for not tying off? Maybe because it’s one of the top causes of construction deaths each year? Or maybe it’s because the consequences are so grave. We have a saying at work: “i would rather see you unemployed than dead”. I think this type of commitment to safety needs to and should be applied to firearms. A line has to be drawn somewhere, why not on the conservative side?
I do..
Although PB rifle round is going to be worse than Quick Clot or a tourniquet is going to fix.. maybe better putting it around the injured’s neck at that point.
Yes there should be penalties for ND's and there can be no grey areas. But was that particular one less safe than a missed target?
Referring only to the example in the video, given that the rifle was pointed down range, if that projectile landed anywhere "unsafe" then the range safety template is not big enough. I stand by that comment.
There's really no need for name calling. Surely we are all above that. Let's keep it a civilized discussion.
An ND is an ND regardless of where it impacts. It’s that way in other sports why would this one be the exception. There are no safe NDs.
If it's an extremity wound there's a lot of data that supports you're likely to survive if it's tied off quickly and they get you to a hospital for surgery.
Take one in a juncture area or the torso and you're pretty much fucked if you don't fall on an operating table after you get hit. You can pack it but I don't think that's going to be enough.
Always happy when MDs have coordinates for a life flight landing and let local dispatch centers know the when/where of the match just in case.
No, you’re an idiot if you’re arguing this.
You can call it name calling. I call it being honest.
There’s stupid people in the world. It’s a real thing. You’re one of them.
Hey, after we cover NDs, can we talk about muzzle discipline? Last match I ROed a guy was driving around the match with a rifle on his four wheeler front rack horizontally with bungee cords AND a closed chamber. Drove up a hill passing 20-30 guys and muzzled every one of them on the way by, I took him to the side to explain how unwise that was, in so many words....
And he was a MD.....
And he was a MD.....
"It only takes one. You own it till it stops" Frank.
Do your ranges not have a safety zone beyond the berm? I know they do here and it would take a guided missile to get outside that.
So it’s the range’s fault now??
Many ranges around the country have houses within a couple miles. Do the math.
Let’s teach people that safety doesn’t matter because there’s a safe zone behind the berm??
What in the fucking fuck are you speaking of?
This stuff carries over into real life. There’s no safety zone when you’re in the woods hunting or what not.
You put this kind of shit in people’s heads and they aren’t going to respect firearms safety.
What is your background with firearms? Prior or current mil/le? Have you ever hunted before? Have you ever, in real life, seen what a rifle round does to a person or animal???
Out of the dozen or so locations I've shot matches only one didn't have houses within range behind the back stop and that one still had an occasional boat or USCG helo that would occasionally wonder through.
