PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

[silhouette]

So it’s the range’s fault now??

Many ranges around the country have houses within a couple miles. Do the math.

Let’s teach people that safety doesn’t matter because there’s a safe zone behind the berm??

What in the fucking fuck are you speaking of?

This stuff carries over into real life. There’s no safety zone when you’re in the woods hunting or what not.

You put this kind of shit in people’s heads and they aren’t going to respect firearms safety.

What is your background with firearms? Prior or current mil/le? Have you ever hunted before? Have you ever, in real life, seen what a rifle round does to a person or animal???

That was a genuine question regarding the safety zone beyond the berm. I'm not in the US.
I've never said that ND's should not go without penalty. I've only referred to the example in the video, meaning that it's a best case scenario regarding a ND because the rifle was pointing down range.

 

[Dthomas3523]

What do you think a child would look like if struck by a shooter who’s ND is just “the same as a miss”?

 

[Dthomas3523]

That was a genuine question regarding the safety zone beyond the berm. I'm not in the US.
I've never said that ND's should not go without penalty. I've only referred to the example in the video, meaning that it's a best case scenario regarding a ND because the rifle was pointing down range.

And you have no idea where that rifle was actually pointed. A couple inches difference at the muzzle equals a lot down range.

Again, you’re defending the defenseless. Change your opinion or sell all your weapons.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The “best case scenario” is no ND. Anything less is unacceptable.

Somethings are zero sum games. Firearms safety is one of these things. The consequences are far too great to split them into levels of how unsafe they were.

 

[Precision Underground]

Yes there should be penalties for ND's and there can be no grey areas. But was that particular one less safe than a missed target?

Referring only to the example in the video, given that the rifle was pointed down range, if that projectile landed anywhere "unsafe" then the range safety template is not big enough. I stand by that comment.

There's really no need for name calling. Surely we are all above that. Let's keep it a civilized discussion.

If you and your family are riding in a cab and the driver blows through a red light because he wasn’t paying attention, do you keep riding with him since there happened to not be an 18 wheeler crossing the intersection at the time? “It was the same as a green light because we didn’t get hit”. That’s the logic you are displaying.

 

[Mr Flannel]

There has been discussion of NDs for some time now. To illustrate the point which some do not seem to get:

Effects of a 5.56mm projectile. Entry wound through right gluteal area. Exit through right thigh.

Entry

Exit

Bottom line. You are responsible and accountable for every round you discharge, regardless of circumstances. If you fire a round in a manner you did not intend, and the projectile travels somewhere else other than directly at your designated target - you have had a negligent discharge. No ifs, buts or maybes. If you are a person with any integrity and understand taking responsibility for your actions - you will own it when it you do it, stand square and accept the consequences. If you don’t, then you lack both character and courage and somehow believe that a few points in a rifle match are more important than those things.

Joel from PRN should be praised for raising this issue. Period. The fact that he has faced abuse for posting the ND video continues to mean that this sport has a small percentage of shooters who, in all likelihood, should not be handling firearms - and who continue to bring themselves and the sport into disrepute.

 

[Mormegil87]

@Mr Flannel the fact that people are considering banning Joel or banning video at matches is extremely disappointing.

The guy brings up an issue and the response from some isn't: "What can we do to fix this?".

It's: "Hey let's ban this guy and/or video at matches so we don't get bad publicity."

Again. The bad publicity from this will pale in comparison to the bad publicity from someone getting smoked.

 

[Mr Flannel]

@RoterJager - I hear you but ‘extremely disappointing’ is an understatement. You could safely call it ‘spineless’. The so-called bad publicity needs to continue until full enforcement of safety rules becomes the norm, regardless of whether you’re at the top or bottom of the scoreboard. Anyone with any moral courage isn’t afraid of owning up to issues and shining a light on them.

Cockroaches work best when the lights are off...

 

[harleytuner]

There sound not ne any grey area for a ND. It should not be up for debate weather or not the ND had the potential of leaving the range. There needs to be a clear universal definition of a ND and a rule around that definition. If the rule is broke the penalty needs to be enforced. Seams plain and simple to me. If they governing body enforces the rule the shooters will start paying more attention and the number of ND's should decrease as a result. Shooting sports have a difficult enough time in the non shooting publics eye, if a ND leaves the range and hits someone it's not going to help or sport.

 

[Mormegil87]

@RoterJager - I hear you but ‘extremely disappointing’ is an understatement. You could safely call it ‘spineless’. The so-called bad publicity needs to continue until full enforcement of safety rules becomes the norm, regardless of whether you’re at the top or bottom of the scoreboard. Anyone with any moral courage isn’t afraid of owning up to issues and shining a light on them.

Cockroaches work best when the lights are off...

You're 100% correct. My filter is still working this morning. I haven't had my coffee yet.

 

[pewpewfever]

There has been discussion of NDs for some time now. To illustrate the point which some do not seem to get:

Effects of a 5.56mm projectile. Entry wound through right gluteal area. Exit through right thigh.

Entry

View attachment 7061595

Exit

View attachment 7061596


If you fire a round in a manner you did not intend, and the projectile travels somewhere else other than directly at your designated target - you have had a negligent discharge. No ifs, buts or maybes. If you are a person with any integrity and understand taking responsibility for your actions - you will own it when it you do it, stand square and accept the consequences.

I’d like some clarification here. I’ve only shot a couple of PRS style matches so far, but we have some unstable supports and moving platforms that we are required to shoot from, and taking the shot is a matter of timing it as the crosshair moves up and down across the target. How is a miss not a ND in this case?

 

[HogsLife]

I’d like some clarification here. I’ve only shot a couple of PRS style matches so far, but we have some unstable supports and moving platforms that we are required to shoot from, and taking the shot is a matter of timing it as the crosshair moves up and down across the target. How is a miss not a ND in this case?

The “conscious decision” to begin your trigger press is the difference between an ND and a bad shot.

Very simple. Very black and white.

 

[Mr Flannel]

@pewpewfever Insofar as I see it, when you step up and commit to shooting, you commit to doing it safely. To your points:

When you engage a target deliberately, even if the prop is unstable and you have a wobble zone, you are shooting with intent. There is no unintentional element to your action.

That stated, you need to seek out and understand from the Range Safety Officer what the permissible ‘left and right of arc’ or engagement radius is around the target. A professionally run range or competition will have those (which also fall within a range safety template if the competition is run on an established range) and they should be available to you in commonly understood measurements - mils, moa, meters, yards, etc. If you cannot keep your wobble zone inside of the limits, and/or you feel you cannot engage safely, you should declare that you are ceasing fire, make safe and take yourself off the line. You may have a training delta to address, or there may be a stage design deficiency, or some combination of both. Either way, by doing the right thing and stopping you’ll get a lot of respect for your actions from the types of shooters you’d give the time of day to.

If you can’t see it, confirm it, don’t believe you can hit it and don’t 100% understand what surrounds it - for whatever reason, do not press that trigger.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’d like some clarification here. I’ve only shot a couple of PRS style matches so far, but we have some unstable supports and moving platforms that we are required to shoot from, and taking the shot is a matter of timing it as the crosshair moves up and down across the target. How is a miss not a ND in this case?

Couple things here:

1: you should vehemently voice your concern to the MD if you feel the prop is too unstable

2: you are an adult. Who is forcing you to take that shot? If you do not feel like you can safely shoot off of that prop, you don’t take the shot. End of story. You take a zero. This is a rifle match. Who cares if you lost some points?

3: as long as your weapon fired when you explicitly told it to (pulling the trigger) it is not an ND in that regard. Could there be a discussion of there is negligence in general on the shooter AND md? That is very possible.

Again, remember, we are adults and no one is holding a gun to your head. Negligence (not and ND) is a chain that can keep going.

The MD may be negligent by making a prop too unstable. But you as a shooter can be just as negligent by making the choice to shoot off that prop.

If you feel it’s not safe when you get behind the rifle, pull the bolt back, mag out, tell the RO you will not be shooting and ask to speak to the MD immediately. DO NOT just sling lead down range.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It is not an “ND” in the sense of the definition.

But, you do make a good point, some crazy gimmicky stages could be irresponsible. This is a good discussion to have.

And sometimes, a shooter’s skill level isn’t good enough for a certain prop. In this case, it’s the shooter’s responsibility to pull himself off the line during that stage and take a zero. Practice the deficiency and come back.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The moving platform that you speak of, and I’m assuming, is likely the boat simulator?

You’re on a suspended platform that moves from your movement?

If so, this falls into the category of shooter skill level. Shooters will fall into (and the proper way they should go about it):

Not able to safely make a shot from the platform under any movement. Shooter should not take shots and take a zero.

Only able to safely take shots with minimal movement. Shooter should take a shot, then patiently wait for the platform to settle down again before taking another. This may result in not get off the maximum number of shots.

Able to safely negotiate the prop.


Remember, the stage round count is the MAXIMUM amount of rounds allowed. There is no minimum. You step up to the stage as your current skill level dictates what your round count is if you are unable to make the maximum. Sometimes the proper number is zero.

 

[pewpewfever]

Thanks for the explanations, and I have another newb question if you don't mind. In the OP vid, I can't tell if the shooter's finger is on the trigger during the discharge. It looked to me like the discharge occurred as soon as he slid the bolt closed. So my question is, does it matter if the discharge occurred due to mechanical failure? Is it a ND regardless of whether it was the shooter, the builder, or the manufacturer who was negligent? Seems like it would be, but maybe there's a difference in the rules?

 

[ForgeValley]

Thanks for the explanations, and I have another newb question if you don't mind. In the OP vid, I can't tell if the shooter's finger is on the trigger during the discharge. It looked to me like the discharge occurred as soon as he slid the bolt closed. So my question is, does it matter if the discharge occurred due to mechanical failure? Is it a ND regardless of whether it was the shooter, the builder, or the manufacturer who was negligent? Seems like it would be, but maybe there's a difference in the rules?

In this instance, he grabbed the trigger.

 

[HogsLife]

Thanks for the explanations, and I have another newb question if you don't mind. In the OP vid, I can't tell if the shooter's finger is on the trigger during the discharge. It looked to me like the discharge occurred as soon as he slid the bolt closed. So my question is, does it matter if the discharge occurred due to mechanical failure? Is it a ND regardless of whether it was the shooter, the builder, or the manufacturer who was negligent? Seems like it would be, but maybe there's a difference in the rules?

He hit the trigger with his finger after the bolt closed.

An ND is an ND. Shooter induced or equipment induced doesn’t matter.

Shooter is responsible for his weapon system.

 

[christopher.dow]

2 brief thoughts-

1. I would venture to say a number of the folks who are very boisterous in this thread regarding safety do not carry medical in their pack. If you are one of those people, this is your wake up call.
2. It was mentioned to treat safety differently based on jersey vs new shooter. I vehemently disagree with this. Safety (a high level) should be expected from all shooters.

There is no excuse for not having at least this in your match pack: https://controlbleedingkits.com/index.php/product/personal-bleeding-control-kit/

 

[Dthomas3523]

Thanks for the explanations, and I have another newb question if you don't mind. In the OP vid, I can't tell if the shooter's finger is on the trigger during the discharge. It looked to me like the discharge occurred as soon as he slid the bolt closed. So my question is, does it matter if the discharge occurred due to mechanical failure? Is it a ND regardless of whether it was the shooter, the builder, or the manufacturer who was negligent? Seems like it would be, but maybe there's a difference in the rules?

Check the video out a few times. He closed the bolt and then touched the trigger. Was definitely a shooter caused ND.

What you’re describing is what I call a “mechanical failure.” However is is also considered and “accidental discharge.”

I hate this term because it gets intermingled and people like to use AD in place of ND because it sounds less harsh. This in turn creates the attitude “accidents happen” and makes our attitude toward safetly lackadaisical.

When you have a mechanical failure that results in a discharge, it’s likely (and should) handled in a similar way to an ND. You are done shooting with a DQ, and you need to find out what happened and fix it.

Properly built and maintained weapons don’t regularly fire without the trigger being pulled. So, when one does, it is an unsafe weapon and needs to be pulled from the firing line ASAP.

Some MD’s may allow you to fix the rifle or use another one. I don’t like this though, as then everyone will just the to blame the equipment for their ND. I think it’s best to treat it the same as an ND with a match DQ.

 

[pewpewfever]

Thanks again. I come from a couple of other shooting sports. In one, a malfunction gets you a reshoot, not a penalty. In the other, selective enforcement of "random" trigger pull weight checks against foreigners is one of the biggest controversies in the sport. So I'm just trying to get on the same page as other PRS shooters at this point, but I have some baggage.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I know some MDs will allow a shooter to continue if they can show a mechanical failure that wasn’t anything the shooter could control. (I.E. you show them a broken sear in a reputable trigger).

But you have to show them what happened. They aren’t just taking your word for it.

 

[Cjwise5]

Yes there should be penalties for ND's and there can be no grey areas. But was that particular one less safe than a missed target?

Referring only to the example in the video, given that the rifle was pointed down range, if that projectile landed anywhere "unsafe" then the range safety template is not big enough. I stand by that comment.

There's really no need for name calling. Surely we are all above that. Let's keep it a civilized discussion.

Yes it was more unsafe than a missed target, if shooter and/or RO sees the miss. In this particular case, no one saw it. The round was unaccounted for. Unless mirage is crazy, the person spotting can usually spot your miss. This bullet probably went over the berm, and that's the difference.

 

[Mr Flannel]

If you have a mechanical failure with a weapons system that causes it to discharge:

If it is a technical parts or mechanism failure beyond operator control, it is an unintentional/accidental discharge.

If it is due to the way the operator prepared the weapon or ammunition (e.g. trigger too light/unsafe sear adjustment), that is a negligent discharge. The negligence occurs by failure to ensure the system was safe to operate beforehand and operating it when in an unsafe condition.

 

[Cjwise5]

That was a genuine question regarding the safety zone beyond the berm. I'm not in the US.
I've never said that ND's should not go without penalty. I've only referred to the example in the video, meaning that it's a best case scenario regarding a ND because the rifle was pointing down range.

The range in the video has good safety zones beyond the berms.

 

[brianf]

@Mr Flannel the fact that people are considering banning Joel or banning video at matches is extremely disappointing.

The guy brings up an issue and the response from some isn't: "What can we do to fix this?".

It's: "Hey let's ban this guy and/or video at matches so we don't get bad publicity."

Again. The bad publicity from this will pale in comparison to the bad publicity from someone getting smoked.

because they are idiots

Ralph Nader was before my time and a hippy/commi in general but:

Without him GM and Ford were telling us that seat belts dont save lives and shoulder belts are a waste because they will wrinkle the drivers tie.

We are all bickering about what does/what does not or how/how not, which is fine.
That is just the regular pissing match we all like to go through

like i said a few pages ago along with scores of other posters PRS has to get more RO's, or start limiting matches

if that means $, prizes, free points for every stage you RO etc, thats what they have to do

once there are the proper amount of RO's PRS then has a baseline to review and make decisions off data not hearsay

If every RO agrees upon review about a certain situation then that becomes law, and so on

the best procedures come from speaking to the people doing the job, not from the ivory tower

if we cant agree on this or something like this, there is no way there will be a agreement on creating rules

 

[pewpewfever]

If you have a mechanical failure with a weapons system that causes it to discharge:

If it is a technical parts or mechanism failure beyond operator control, it is an unintentional/accidental discharge.

If it is due to the way the operator prepared the weapon or ammunition (e.g. trigger too light/unsafe sear adjustment), that is a negligent discharge. The negligence occurs by failure to ensure the system was safe to operate beforehand and operating it when in an unsafe condition.

So what if a newb shows up to his first match with a rem 700 that is subject to the court ordered recall for discharge upon disengaging the safety. The shooter knows about the recall, has put in for the recall months ago, but rem has not issued the shipping instructions yet. One might presume the delay is intentional as rem appeals the judgment. The shooter would, in this case, be responsible for a discharge upon safety off because he has knowledge of the issue? But he would not be responsible if he was unaware of the issue?

 

[lash]

...shoot from, and taking the shot is a matter of timing it as the crosshair moves up and down across the target. How is a miss not a ND in this case?

If you had taken time to read this whole shit show of a thread, you would have seen that this has already been discussed and answered.

The bottom line boils down to intention. If you are on (or around in your case) the target and pulled the trigger intentionally, you are not going to create a potentially dangerous situation. You will create a miss. If you are moving the rifle to get on target and brush or squeeze the trigger before you are on target or even close, it is an ND.

Trust me, it’s not that grey of a decision as some would like to make it. Every ND that I’ve seen, even by those that are “pros” has been noticeable by an observer who is watching. There’s no secret sauce to hide them.

So what if a newb shows up to his first match with a rem 700 that is subject to the court ordered recall for discharge upon disengaging the safety. The shooter knows about the recall, has put in for the recall months ago, but rem has not issued the shipping instructions yet. One might presume the delay is intentional as rem appeals the judgment. The shooter would, in this case, be responsible for a discharge upon safety off because he has knowledge of the issue? But he would not be responsible if he was unaware of the issue?

So, we're back to parsing details again. If you come to a precision rifle match and haven’t shot your rifle enough to know whether or not it operates safely, then you are the problem and a safety concern for all around you.

Point being, we’ve been through all of these lawyer-like what if scenarios. They literally are just looking for excuses why it’s okay to have an ND.

And yes, I consider all of these niggling examples to be NDs. YOU are responsible for your weapon system and what happens while using that system. Does that mean that obvious circumstances cannot be resolved in the spot with common sense? No it does not. But pulling a game of 29,000 what-if scenarios in a forum thread does nobody any good and serves to only distract from the good things that have been identified and posed as good steps to move forward and get better at safety. This is well overdue.

 

[seansmd]

I am completely in the camp of ND, MDQ,

As someone who is new and yet to shoot my first match, I am more worried about being "that guy" than scoring. This thread has me concerned by the reckless dismissal of what was a shooter clearly muscling his weapon trying to get in an uncomfortable position, moving again, and then trying to see if he can get his right hand in a trigger position, and bang. It also appears every time he closed the bolt his hand goes to the grip his finger goes into the trigger space in the same motion. Is this bad form?

I read somewhere in this thread there were multiple RO at this stage. Clearly the woman was on glass and did not see the shot and asked the shooter for clarification on the first weak side shot since she did not see it. Many have suggested multiple RO's to solve this, has it been mentioned what the other RO's were doing or saw?

 

[morganlamprecht]

It also appears every time he closed the bolt his hand goes to the grip his finger goes into the trigger space in the same motion. Is this bad form?

yes its terrible form and a training issue

find the target with sight, close the bolt, find the grip, settle on the target, find the trigger, press it

finger stays out of there until youre ready to actually send it, not getting ready to send it, especially with a single stage

 

[Dthomas3523]

So what if a newb shows up to his first match with a rem 700 that is subject to the court ordered recall for discharge upon disengaging the safety. The shooter knows about the recall, has put in for the recall months ago, but rem has not issued the shipping instructions yet. One might presume the delay is intentional as rem appeals the judgment. The shooter would, in this case, be responsible for a discharge upon safety off because he has knowledge of the issue? But he would not be responsible if he was unaware of the issue?

We are getting into the “what if” crazy train a bit, but......

You have reason to believe your weapon is possibly unsafe.

You are culpable for anything afterwards. Unaware, yes, there is typically no culpability.

 

[Redmanss]

He hit the trigger with his finger after the bolt closed.

An ND is an ND. Shooter induced or equipment induced doesn’t matter.

Shooter is responsible for his weapon system.

Right there with you, there is only negligence.

Across 25+ years of carrying a weapon for a living, I had one ND. It was with a blank in my M40A1 during raid weeks training, we made and were breaking contact, I was bounding with the bolt down and carrying the rifle with my hand on the forearm, muzzle down, and my gear caught the trigger firing down my side. At the time I thought I hit a bang type booby trap trip wire, right up until I set up and went to shoot with no joy. By some people's reasoning in this thread, that was an "accident" but it was 100% negligence on my part, even with a blank into the ground and when I didn't put my finger on the trigger. I knew I should have put the bolt up when moving, I failed in that, and after the evolution I came clean to my Plt Sgt on it. He wasn't pleased his Chief Scout fucked up like that, I paid my tree line penance, and I've used it as a teaching point then and ever since.

For me, as much as this ND in the video is a huge issue, it's not why I left the PRS after one brief season. This competitor is not only unsafe, but he's a fucking cheater with zero integrity, and that is far from a one off inside the PRS.

Lack of honor isn't "gaming" as so many in the PRS like to call it, it's cheating. Knowing you missed but still accepting points cannot be construed as anything other than cheating. Same goes with the "Well, it didn't say I couldn't do it in the stage brief..." mentality when it clearly goes against the stage's intent.

As an aside, I only witnessed one ND at a PRS match. It was at Peacemaker and involved a shooter who touched the trigger causing the rifle to fire before coming into the glass after his time began, a second RO not in the glass witnessed it and immediately stopped the shooter, and called in the MD who promptly ordered him off the property with a match DQ. That's the way these should be handled each and every time they occur.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here’s my breaking of the 4 rules story:

Shooting at a ranch with a friend. Friend’s friend owns ranch.

They are both there and show me a perfect old dirt runway. 950yds available. I ask what’s behind it. I’m told nothing, empty land. No one around.

I did not go verify this.

One day, we are shooting and a guy drives up. Politely let’s us know that while he was back there checking some tanks, he could hear bullets flying by.

Yep.....high velocity rifle rounds close enough for him to hear.

I won’t be shooting there again until we build a berm.

I broke a cardinal rule. I did not verify what was beyond my target. I was negligent. Plain and simple. Luckily it turned into a lesson and not a crime.

We all do stupid shit. Own it, fix it, learn from it, an move on.

But do not silence it or make excuses.

 

[Diver160651]

yes its terrible form and a training issue

find the target, close the bolt, find the grip, settle on the target, find the trigger, press it

finger stays out of there until youre ready to actually send it, not getting ready to send it, especially with a single stage

You almost broke this down too far.. I mean people are having a hard time just understanding how many thousands of an inch brings a gun off target.. For example, our 20MOA bases are about .035" over flat... Imaging that! Now bounce a gun around a few feet and have a ND.. try that math.. scary at best.

Agreeing with what you said, but simplifying the main point, people should not close the bolt until on the actual target and ready to fire.

In the last 6 weeks, I have been to two matches where a gun simply pointing down range but at a really bad angle, and a bad bounce could indeed leave the range and get to a home, been on where cows could be at risk.

So the RO is spotting, we are all ROs when it comes to safety.

 

[morganlamprecht]

For me, as much as this ND in the video is a huge issue, it's not why I left the PRS after one brief season. This competitor is not only unsafe, but he's a fucking cheater with zero integrity, and that is far from a one off inside the PRS.

Lack of honor isn't "gaming" as so many in the PRS like to call it, it's cheating. Knowing you missed but still accepting points cannot be construed as anything other than cheating. Same goes with the "Well, it didn't say I couldn't do it in the stage brief..." mentality when it clearly goes against the stage's intent.

just so we're clear, this isnt anything special to PRS...

it happens in any form of competition, at any level, regardless of what there is to gain...people will always bend and skirt the rules

 

[morganlamprecht]

You almost broke this down too far.. I mean people are having a hard time just understanding how many thousands of an inch brings a gun off target.. For example, our 20MOA bases are about .035" over flat... Imaging that! Now bounce a gun around a few feet and have a ND.. try that math.. scary at best.

Agreeing with what you said, but simplifying the main point, people should not close the bolt until on the actual target and ready to fire.

In the last 6 weeks, I have been to two matches where a gun simply pointing down range but at a really bad angle, and a bad bounce could indeed leave the range and get to a home, been on where cows could be at risk.

So the RO is spotting, we are all ROs when it comes to safety.

yea, "find target with sight" is what i meant, edited to show

 

[Shoots 700's]

should have been a Match DQ right there

 

[ForgeValley]

The fix is out there as noted,

1. Enforce the Rules (Stage DQs)
2. Range Officer is a Safety Officer first a scorekeeper second if at all as you can't do both.
3. Trigger Weight limits to start, 1.5LBS or 24oz as the lightest ( I would almost say 16oz but not sure I want to do that)

For all the years I have been shooting, I never tested my trigger weights on handguns or rifles. I have an idea of what a clean trigger feels like to me, and out of curiosity after this thread I bought a Wheeler trigger gauge and just tested it. My 2nd stage break comes in right around 2 lbs. I feel like I could go slightly lower, but not much. Now granted, I learned my rifle shooting on military triggers, but for god's sake, there are guys running around with 1lb or lighter SINGLE stage triggers?? No wonder there are ND's, you could breathe on that and break it.

I'm just gonna go on record and say that's too light in my very humble opinion for an action shooting sport.

 

[Olen_4504]

For all the years I have been shooting, I never tested my trigger weights on handguns or rifles. I have an idea of what a clean trigger feels like to me, and out of curiosity after this thread I bought a Wheeler trigger gauge and just tested it. My 2nd stage break comes in right around 2 lbs. I feel like I could go slightly lower, but not much. Now granted, I learned my rifle shooting on military triggers, but for god's sake, there are guys running around with 1lb or lighter SINGLE stage triggers?? No wonder there are ND's, you could breathe on that and break it.

it's not that serious. have you shot a 1lb or less trigger?

4oz, 6 oz? sure that's super light and iffy.

but 12-16 is completely manageable. i can bang my gun all over the place and the trigger never drops.

no one has showed me yet a ND from a light trigger. not saying they haven't happened. but this video has nothing to do with a light trigger.

 

[ForgeValley]

it's not that serious. have you shot a 1lb or less trigger?

4oz, 6 oz? sure that's super light and iffy.

but 12-16 is completely manageable. i can bang my gun all over the place and the trigger never drops.

no one has showed me yet a ND from a light trigger. not saying they haven't happened. but this video has nothing to do with a light trigger.

No I haven't. But I'll drop my BnA trigger down and let you know how I feel. But I don't think it will change my mind. One pound is too light. And I would venture to say that a significant number of ND's is EXACTLY because of light triggers.

 

[Dthomas3523]

it's not that serious. have you shot a 1lb or less trigger?

4oz, 6 oz? sure that's super light and iffy.

but 12-16 is completely manageable. i can bang my gun all over the place and the trigger never drops.

no one has showed me yet a ND from a light trigger. not saying they haven't happened. but this video has nothing to do with a light trigger.

That’s because the only way you’ll know is if the shooter tells you.

Keep a close eye. When a shooter is on gun and mutters something like “shit.”

Many times it was an ND due to a light trigger.

And yes, part of the reason the ND in the video happened was likely a light trigger. You can see him barely touching it on the other shots.

He shouldn’t have had his finger there, but a heavier trigger *may* have kept it from firing. Not an excuse for breaking a cardinal safety rule, but it helps.

This is why most hunting and combat rifles are in the 2lb area and many are 2 stage.

 

[Dthomas3523]

No I haven't. But I'll drop my BnA trigger down and let you know how I feel. But I don't think it will change my mind. One pound is too light. And I would venture to say that a significant number of ND's is EXACTLY because of light triggers.

I’ve found somewhere in the 8-12oz is where things can start getting iffy.

I can run my diamond at 1lb, drop it all over, best in it, etc etc. It won’t fire. I can put my finger on it and apply a bit of pressure and it won’t fire.

But if something got caught in there, different story. Also, most any single stage is gonna go off of something gets caught in there, no matter what the weight.

 

[Olen_4504]

That’s because the only way you’ll know is if the shooter tells you.

Keep a close eye. When a shooter is on gun and mutters something like “shit.”

Many times it was an ND due to a light trigger.

And he’s, part of the reason the ND in the video happened was likely a light trigger. You can see him barely touching it on the other shots.

He shouldn’t have had his finger there, but a heavier trigger *may* have kept it from firing. Not an excuse for breaking a cardinal safety rule, but it helps.

This is why most hunting and combat rifles are in the 2lb area and many are 2 stage.

fair enough.

still though.

referring to cav scout. i personally don't feel ~1lb or slightly less is unreasonable like he suggests.


now 4oz that some guys are running? that scares me. but maybe they feel the same way i do about 12oz

 

[ForgeValley]

This is why most hunting and combat rifles are in the 2lb area and many are 2 stage.

I'm no expert on trigger pull weights. But in this study of a 'combat' rifle, light was 5 lbs.

Trigger Pull Study - Initial Findings - Mountain Tactical Institute

By Rob Shaul and Adam Scott We spent two days this week in Fresno working with 10 members of the City of Fresno SWAT team. The Fresno SWAT team volunteered to be our “lab rats” for a study designed to test the mission-direct effects of a lighter trigger pull. Most stock and issued carbines come […]

mtntactical.com

 

[Dthomas3523]

I'm no expert on trigger pull weights. But in this study of a 'combat' rifle, light was 5 lbs.

Trigger Pull Study - Initial Findings - Mountain Tactical Institute

By Rob Shaul and Adam Scott We spent two days this week in Fresno working with 10 members of the City of Fresno SWAT team. The Fresno SWAT team volunteered to be our “lab rats” for a study designed to test the mission-direct effects of a lighter trigger pull. Most stock and issued carbines come […]

mtntactical.com

That’s not a study on precision rifle triggers

 

[Dthomas3523]

It also shows a noticeable improvement in accuracy with lighter triggers.

The key is to balance that with safety.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also worth noting, there are many triggers in use such as Huber that will not pass a drop test unless the safety is engaged.

 

[ForgeValley]

It also shows a noticeable improvement in accuracy with lighter triggers.

The key is to balance that with safety.

Yes, I get it, those were carbines. I'm not saying that's the number, and not arguing at all that accuracy doesn't improve with lighter triggers. I'm saying 5lbs. to 1 lb. is a pretty big leap. If you re-read the part of LL's post I quoted above, he would seem to agree that 24 oz is the lightest you should go.

 

[Lowlight]

The trigger weight is just my opinion based on seeing guys mess up, run to the trigger too fast, etc.

I have no data to say 16oz is better than 24oz or the other way around, I just feel a limit helps to guide the new shooter and the lowest common denominator during an event.

I believe anything under 1LBS is too light for an action sport, and that 1.5LBS will help balance the field a bit and make sure a less than good trigger is not adjusted below the point of safety.

There is two factors at play, drop safety and weapons handling, we dont want to bang into something or drop the rifle and have it fire, and we don't want the smallest of contact to set it off, so for me these two values represent a point in the system we can achieve a safe balance.