PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

[Lowlight]

See, that is some scary shit right there, I would not want to be that finger.

Instead let's hit a rifle match with 100 people I don't know and make rules optional for cool people

 

[lash]

My wife last week -View attachment 7062049

That’s why we were made to practice over and over again with a weight and then eventually with a spoon. You get a good idea where that thing is going to end up that way.

Oh, and Ouch!

 

[Diver160651]

This guy is either the dude in Joel’s video or related to him......... there’s just too many similarities to be a coincidence.... ??View attachment 7062035

I can watch that all day..

Sad truth is people have squeezed a second one off into their head, including a young kid not long ago.. that part off course is sad.

 

[HogsLife]

Apparently, we have been coming at this all wrong... I got an update and it's a bit disturbing

I was told tonight, that the MD said in the initial match briefing that NDs that happened "downrange" will be excused, or in other words, never happened. Don't sweat the small shit, if you torch one off we are all good as long as it is downrange.

I guess that or this is the direction the series wants to go, overlooking the basic firearms safety rules. Why bother discussing if the mindset from the top is don't worry about it. It's one way to eliminate the Range Officer problem, just have scorekeepers, safety is now officially optional.

I really thought this was about creating a professional series with the best shooters in the world. Instead, we'll just dumb it down, hide the failures and collect our checks for the Best Toaster for the Gun Guys Man Cave.

Wow, I am floored, forget the fact I was told the winner had an ND, an actual MD said don't sweat it. I think it might be time to retire or find a new hobby. I was thinking about fishing but I dislike fish, and all those pictures of guys with a fishing hook in their fingers have scared me away from the sport. Competitive Ice Dancing, nah, not very dancerific, Drone Racing, ya there is an idea, I can get much farther away from the drama if I drive a drone.

 

[HogsLife]

I can watch that all day..

Sad truth is people have squeezed a second one off into their head, including a young kid not long ago.. that part off course is sad.

Totally okay though because his muzzle was kinda sorta oriented in a downrange direction..........

 

[FALex]

You know what's sad? The fact that there's actually individuals who feel like an ND isn't a big deal is super fucking crazy. Who cares where the round goes? If you squeeze the trigger when you do not fully intend to, and yet the round just so happens to get close to the target, or even on the fucking thing is only luck. It could have just as easily gone into the next county.

I have RO'ed and shot a shit ton of matches in the past 9, almost 10 years. Most of them local, but a few out of state and what not. In all of that time, I have personally observed 3 ND's, two were slam fires from the same dude on a too-light Jewell trigger. I have not seen anything in terms of ND's within the past year, but I will be the first to state that the fucking flagging is absolutely ridiculous. It is done way more than ND's, and is very rarely addressed, IME.

I remember telling one jersey-wearing fellow that he needed to watch his muzzle and he looked at me like I had just shit in his Cheerios which was actually very funny. I RO'ed a nationwide match last month and spoke to 5 people about their lack of muzzle awareness. There was a sixth guy that I saw from a distance walking toward my stage, but I completely forgot to speak to him which was just me getting preoccupied. Mind you, when I speak to these folks, I don't put them on front street, but I pull them aside and speak with them about it.

There can be no compromises when it comes to this stuff. It costs a ton to travel around and participate in nationwide events. That fact alone would serve as an expensive, yet valuable lesson, to those who have to learn from it. Unfortunately, it is that same reason as to why MD's and RO's rarely address these issues: They want to maintain that quality customer service. The MD's and RO's go through a lot of hardwork to put these things together. At the end of the day, nobody wants to get negative reviews or feedback because they're DQ'ing folks either.

I take the RO'ing thing seriously. As I have continued to ponder improvements to the multitude of issues RO's run into, the main component I keep coming back to is video. Video would mitigate a majority of the bullshit, just as it did in the video posted by the OP. The "I only shot 10 rounds" when they really shot 11 or 12, or the "I did transition to my support side, you just didn't see it," or whatever crazy bullshit that has (and will) come up, would be 100% nullified. Just like the NFL, we'll take it back to the replay.

Obviously, that type of quality assurance could come with a lot of added equipment and time, but the whole arbitration-after-the-match deal is moot.

One last story, which is way off the safety topic, but still RO related, and then I'll shut up: RO'ed a championship match last October. We use Practiscore. Any of you who have used Practiscore knows that each shooter has to verify that they "approve" or "deny" their individual score as soon as they have made their rifle safe and have gotten off the line. So I get a call from one of the MD's later in the night after the first day. He proceeds to tell me that XYZ guy (I remember him to this very day) was disagreeing with my score of a 3 because he had not shot less than 4's and 5's all day. The 3 I gave him could not have been his score because he simply didn't shoot less than 4's in all the other stages.

My response was twofold: A) laughed at the absolute inanity of that stupidity and the fact that we were even discussing this issue, and B) told the MD I didn't give two fucks if he pressed hit on every goddamn shot for this "shooter." If you just need to get points so badly that you have to come up with some silly fucking philosophy on how it's statistically impossible for you to shoot less than Y number on any given stage even though you damn well did, it's time to go take up bowling.

 

[Lowlight]

Bowling sounds fun, there is a lane on 38th super to the house, googling “bowling injuries” now

 

[FALex]

Bowling sounds fun, there is a lane on 38th super to the house, googling “bowling injuries” now

An old friend of mine was shit faced one night while bowling with another group of his friends. He was screwing around with some of the people, coming up behind them, scaring them, etc...

Dumbass tried that shit right as his other buddy was cocking all 14lbs of that ball back to unleash it down the lane. He actually swallowed almost all of his teeth. Three of them hit the ground.

In the words of Master P, "Only cars get brand new grills..." HAHAHAHA!!!

ETA - regarding the BS that some (likely all) RO's deal with forced me to suggest we initiate an RO union. You know, one where we can band together and do like an AA for RO's...bitch about stupid shit and celebrate the good stuff. Another great idea!

 

[lash]

Bowling sounds fun, there is a lane on 38th super to the house, googling “bowling injuries” now

The problem with bowling is that it’s not enough exercise to make up for the two pitchers of beer and a plate of wings that are not to be missed. Add in the occasional hot pretzel and eet ees on, señor!

 

[Lowlight]

Is there Long Range Bowling - double the lane distance and get s running start?

That should limit the beer and wings but I doubt it

 

[HogsLife]

I know what the hell does any of that have to do with safety.... if you have 100 friends at a match instead of 100 people you are a more careful about what you do. Kind of like working for a small company vs a big one where you are just a number.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Well with safety standards like that.....
Welcome to

This will be the unravelling of any resemblance of a legitimate organization.
Commercial sponsorships are not going to want the association with such practices.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[LawnMM]

How does a MD override safety rules for the series? Would that not be grounds for being unsanctioned as a match? Points don't count, etc?

 

[Cjwise5]

The series could DQ the offenders score for the match, if he's a repeat offender he could be barred from the series.

Might not keep them from shooting matches as non members but it makes them ineligible for prize money and that's what a lot of guys going faster than they're able to do safely are after.

It also would discourage MDs from allowing them to shoot on their property for liability reasons. Think of the lawsuit you'd eat if you're a facility owner like Rifles Only, who elects to affiliate with NRL/PRS matches and thereby their rule book, and you allow a banned shooter to participate as a non series member because he was booted for safety violations...and somebody gets hurt or killed.

You are F U C K E D.

But this would once again be asking the PRS to actually do something besides collect money and keep score.

Why the fuck hasn't this guy been ID'd? Somebody knows who it is. He's on video doing it and then taking a point for it. Zero his match score, then zero the next match he attends and has a score submitted, for cheating.

That would raise a few eyebrows and wake some people up. It's not hard to do. Make a list and update it. Shit the NRL/PRS should share their lists in the interest of safety and consistent discipline. Just like if you get a DUI in Colorado you can't go to Nevada and get a license.

Keeps a PRS offender from jumping ship and fleeing to the NRL and vice versa. This isn't one guys word against another's and there's clear evidence of two violations: safety and sportsmanship.

If the PRS ever needed to make an example of somebody, it's this guy.

The guy in the video is known. I will not reveal it to the general public. People don’t need to know. We need to fix the problem.
Also, there is an arbitration period after these matches. Once it’s over, nothing will be done to alter the scores.
What’s done is done at this point.
Now we move forward and hopefully do a few things differently from here on out.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The guy in the video is known. I will not reveal it to the general public. People don’t need to know. We need to fix the problem.
Also, there is an arbitration period after these matches. Once it’s over, nothing will be done to alter the scores.
What’s done is done at this point.
Now we move forward and hopefully do a few things differently from here on out.

Unfortunately this needs to change as well.

I believe the one hour arbitration period was a good idea with good intentions. I liked the idea.

But......if something like a video surfaces, you have to go back and tax the shooter.

Otherwise, a shooter knows all they have to do is get past an hour after the match.


We have effectively put a statue of limitations of one hour. There were good intentions with this rule, but it needs to be amended to tax a shooter if overwhelming evidence is presented. No he said she said stiff, but solid evidence.

Otherwise we are just spinning our wheels here.

 

[LawnMM]

The guy in the video is known. I will not reveal it to the general public. People don’t need to know. We need to fix the problem.
Also, there is an arbitration period after these matches. Once it’s over, nothing will be done to alter the scores.
What’s done is done at this point.
Now we move forward and hopefully do a few things differently from here on out.

Respectfully, I disagree. The alibi period is for score discrepancies. I got marked as a 3 when I really hit 9 on stage 7, etc.

It's not a limit on disciplinary decisions for rules and conduct violations.

My opinion, nobody gets any PRS points for the match and it's dropped from the 'season' list for not complying with the ruling body's rules, specifically the safety rules.

That hoses 100+ people that paid a lot to compete. Maybe next time Mr. MD wants to hold a match, nobody signs up for fear of a wasted weekend of effort.

You DQ this guy for the match, and the next one he attends he goose eggs for cheating. Since everyone is effectively getting DQ'd for the rules violation of the MD maybe he really needs a goose egg for the next two so we're not going easy on him while everyone that attended gets hosed for the MDs idiot decision to ignore the rules.

Or, perhaps you keep everyones scores but Mr. MD can no longer submit scores for the next year or something for ignoring series safety rules.

You can't have it both ways, either you are a series match and subject to series rules, or you're not.

 

[dino67]

If we apply this to a hunting scenario and one I'm familiar with, I'm shooting a boar across an oats paddock in amongst the farmer's stud angus bulls. Backdrop is a large hill. The nearest bull is 30m off to one side, none in the background behind the boar, I ND a round and although the rifle is generally pointing in the right direction I end up gutshooting old mate's stud bull. Do you think the farmer would let me back on his place? I certainly wouldn't! I don't have a tolerance for any ND/AD that can be attributed to the shooter. Both my kids shoot, 8 and 12yrs old. If one of them did it the rifle would be gathering dust in the safe for 12 months.

 

[doctnj]

I watched Joel video and he did a fine job. A FINE job. As I did on facebook I will say here that I had an ND a couple years ago but I was brand new. I just stopped shooting the stage after that. I also saw the impact of the round. It was in the dirt however it was an accident. I listened to Franks pod cast and dont necessarily agree with a couple things, I think NO rifle should EVER be able to slam fire or drop fire. But thats as far as I would go on trigger restrictions for "veteran" shooters. Having a 16 oz limit on first year shooters is certainly acceptable. And Im sorry but I think there should be NO AR s in precision rifles. I watched what could have been a terrible nd at a 2 day match in texas last year from an AR.

Also Frank said there shouldnt be two sets of rules. Well I disagree. I think people in there first year should have 30 extra seconds per stage. Now of course they wouldnt be eligible to win against shooters with faster stage times because there would be abuse. People are human.

Frank used Nascar example several times. Just as in Nascar as they have rookies paint yellow stripe on there front and rear bumper, New shooters should wear a certain hat or ribbon so every RO and shooter know to watch them. When we are standing in a crowd before the match in a briefing and the new shooters put there hands up, we forget who they are a few minutes later and ROs never see who they are because they are normally already out at stages in big matches. At our regional matches, we always tell the new shooters that they can continue past the buzzer but the points dont count so they have no incentive to slow down.

 

[generalzip]

If we apply this to a hunting scenario and one I'm familiar with, I'm shooting a boar across an oats paddock in amongst the farmer's stud angus bulls. Backdrop is a large hill. The nearest bull is 30m off to one side, none in the background behind the boar, I ND a round and although the rifle is generally pointing in the right direction I end up gutshooting old mate's stud bull. Do you think the farmer would let me back on his place? I certainly wouldn't! I don't have a tolerance for any ND/AD that can be attributed to the shooter. Both my kids shoot, 8 and 12yrs old. If one of them did it the rifle would be gathering dust in the safe for 12 months.

This has a couple flaws. First, we don't have people standing 30m from targets ever in PRS. Second, you probably shouldn't be taking that shot in the first place if you're a responsible hunter. I've seen bullets come out of animals after hitting bone at very strange angles, never to be found.

As Frank says, you own your round. If you decide shooting a pig is worth the risk of possibly paying thousands of dollars for that bull and losing hunting rights, go for it. But you own that bullet until it comes to rest.

On a separate note, I was at this match and the MD did not say "NDs that happened "downrange" will be excused, or in other words, never happened. Don't sweat the small shit, if you torch one off we are all good as long as it is downrange." His words were actually: "if you're on the clock and let a round go that hits near the target on the berm, we are not considering that an ND. That's just hustling." He never said he would excuse blatant NDs. He never said you don't need to be held accountable for your rounds. He was just trying to define what his understanding of an ND constitutes. He felt if they round impacts within the vicinity of the target under time pressure that is not an ND. Right or wrong is up for you to decide, but I was actually there and heard what he said. Frank made it sound worse than it was. I'm not here picking one side or the other. Just setting the facts straight as I was ACTUALLY there and heard what was said. Nobody in the crowd seemed up in arms about it, for context.

That said, my above comment HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE VIDEO. That is an entirely separate issue/discussion. I'm willing to bet the MD was not even aware of this ND as I was standing 15-20 yards away and even I wasn't aware of it happening. Not trying to stir the pot or argue one way or the other. Just setting facts straight as I can see there's a game of telephone going on where words are being distorted the more they get passed along.

 

[sabrecross]

You can't appreciate the sheer destruction of a high powered bullet until you've witnessed it in person. It's all just theory and mental masturbation with the back and forth. It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt and with the many cavalier attitudes that abound, it's not "if" ...it's "when."

 

[generalzip]

I also don't understand what's with the pictures of the terminal ballistics and talks of high rifle rounds being more powerful etc. That is completely irrelevant. Speak for yourself, but I DON'T WANT TO GET SHOT WITH ANY BULLET. It shouldn't matter how big or fast it is. NOBODY should be getting shot with any type of firearm! What type it is has no relevance when it comes to how we handle firearms and the consequences they can have when not treated with the respect they deserve. I was taught by my father to treat my Air Rifle and .22 the same way I treat my 28 Nosler.

The media will give 2 shits what caliber the rifle/handgun was that shot someone. You think in the court of law that has any influence over how a jury views manslaughter/negligence? I guess I'm just failing to see the relevance unless you're just trying to bring shock factor which I doubt anyone needs as we all know what these rounds do to flesh.

 

[Lowlight]

The point is, the Handgun Action Sports take this far more serious than the Precision Rifle Crowd

It's not a scare tactic when a MD ignores safety, it's life-threatening to the competitors at the event.

Safety overlooked is an accident waiting to happen ask us how we know.

 

[doctnj]

I would also like to point out after watching the video several more times. He was NOT set when the bolt was closed. He was still moving the gun. You can clearly see him about to re position it with both hands to move it into final firing position. Both hands were moving at the same time. So yes he closed the bolt prior to being set at least on the berm with in close proximity to target. If a movement is required that takes such a gross adjustment that requires both hands you are way off. I think weak side shooting is also a major cause of problems. We dont practice enough. I mean to practice weak side more than I do but generally remember after Im on the way home. Well this past sunday that is basically all we did. I was leaving the range and my neck hurt from being in a stupid bad position for a long time. Got the rifle back out that evening with the DAFT on and went through some more drills. We have been seeing it more and more these past few matches so its time to put it into practice. I think he wouldnt have had that ND if he had finished positioning his rifle prior to closing the bolt and putting his finger on the trigger .

 

[generalzip]

Understood. My point is THIS particular MD did not "ignore" safety whatsoever. In fact I felt safer at this match than probably any I had been to, and for sure more than Rifles Only (which is often regarded for their high level of safety) where I literally could see muzzles as the rifles were being fired. That was a first for me. Also a stage where you walked a balance beam facing a tank trap stage. There was no reason that balance beam couldn't have been rotated 90 degrees to point downrange. My point here is that some of this stuff is subjective. I personally felt very safe at this match. One video of a ND pops up and people think the match was a total shitshow free for all. It wasn't.

I was not being flagged at the match in this video. Rifles were staged in racks or designated areas pointing downrange. Each stage had a 180 degree firing line. ROs were on top of shit and even stated before several stages including the shoot house about where they would be standing and if you flagged them you're going to be DQ'd no questions.

In regards to the video, yes clearly some things were missed. But safety was not "overlooked" at this match. It was very much on peoples minds especially after the whole discussion around the rifle that blew up. Is there a larger issue here regarding the PRS safety culture? Yes. This video was simply the catalyst to a healthy discussion.

 

[Lowlight]

It was OVERLOOKED

You may have felt safe, but there were 3 NDs and the briefing said all NDs sent downrange would be ignored.

That is not safe and that is safety being ignored, had this match taken place on smaller range things might have been different if you translate the same attitude across the board.

This is a growing problem, 3 NDs in an event is a lot, and the problem is getting worse, they have had several incidents recently

 

[Masked]

Apparently, we have been coming at this all wrong... I got an update and it's a bit disturbing

I was told tonight, that the MD said in the initial match briefing that NDs that happened "downrange" will be excused, or in other words, never happened. Don't sweat the small shit, if you torch one off we are all good as long as it is downrange.

I guess that or this is the direction the series wants to go, overlooking the basic firearms safety rules. Why bother discussing if the mindset from the top is don't worry about it. It's one way to eliminate the Range Officer problem, just have scorekeepers, safety is now officially optional.

I really thought this was about creating a professional series with the best shooters in the world. Instead, we'll just dumb it down, hide the failures and collect our checks for the Best Toaster for the Gun Guys Man Cave.

Wow, I am floored, forget the fact I was told the winner had an ND, an actual MD said don't sweat it. I think it might be time to retire or find a new hobby. I was thinking about fishing but I dislike fish, and all those pictures of guys with a fishing hook in their fingers have scared me away from the sport. Competitive Ice Dancing, nah, not very dancerific, Drone Racing, ya there is an idea, I can get much farther away from the drama if I drive a drone.

I took a girlfriend (Long time ex) to a range probably about 5 years back. I was an Instructor and a RO at the time, we went over the rules of firearms safety about 15 times before we even got to the range. Got there, got my case out - They were practicing for an IDPA match on the other side of the facility. I could see from where we were standing that they were fucking up. Not just a little, I witnessed multiple ND's while we were getting her gear out; a guy on deck was even fingering his trigger. I was baffled. Walked over to the CRSO who told me, "not my circus, not my monkeys". We left, immediately. Haven't been back to the range since.

The very idea that safety takes a backseat is appalling.

Why not make every single shooter there, an effective RO?

Do a true military safety briefing, everyone knows the rules - Everyone knows SOP. SOP. SOP.

Previous shooter polices the active shooter while an RO acts as an authority on every stage to score/hit etc.

IMO you ND, you've failed as a shooter, period but, too many fairies to let that one fly so, you ND, you fail the stage.

The fact that a MD said not to sweat it is...Wow. If this was paintball, that'd be one thing. Airsoft, ok...But, PRS?

I'd also retroactively change the trigger weights - Anything less than 1.5lbs is begging for a failed drop.

Frank, you ever need a CRSO for anything, shoot me a message; if I can work it in, I'll be there.

 

[lte82]

the briefing said all NDs sent downrange would be ignored.

What was said specifically was "if the shots are within the vicinity of the target, even 10 ft away, it's not an ND". He specifically stated "10 ft", not "anywhere downrange". Just clarifying a bit.

 

[Lowlight]

so all 3 NDs were within 10ft or were all three ignored?

What he stated was enough to let everyone overlook them as no big deal.

 

[generalzip]

What the MD states and what individuals see and do are two completely different things. The RO in the video clearly thought he had hit the target. She didn't go "oh that was within 10 ft". It was ~760 yards away on that stage and the shooter was using a dasher. This ND wasn't "ignored"....it wasn't seen and she honestly thought he hit the plate as you can hear in the audio.

The RO did nothing wrong. She legitimately thought he hit the target. I can't speak to the other 2 NDs as I wasn't there when/if they happened and I'm not going to start rumors about something I don't have first hand experience with. However this video is not an example of an RO ignoring a ND under the guidance of a MD. It was completely missed in it's entirety because she was on glass. What the MD did or did not say at the start of the match played no role in what happened in this video.

 

[Lowlight]

The RO Is not the issue, I get it she did not see it, that is the point, it's a free out because they are not looking for it

You guys are pathetic trying to defend the indefensible you have no clue what you are doing and you are embarrassing the sport

The match is a joke, 3 NDs, the winner had an ND and still won... square that circle

 

[Masked]

The MD's duty is still to follow SOP and they're clearly not. - That's the bottom line.

SOP was set when the match began - That's the law.

To overlook safety protocol as "not a big deal" after the fact, why have SOP or rules in the first place?

Wilful ignorance is just as bad as the ND.

 

[lte82]

so all 3 NDs were within 10ft or were all three ignored?

What he stated was enough to let everyone overlook them as no big deal.

Now that I don't know. I will say the ND that was in video was actually in my squad, and I dont know that anyone saw it. Prone NDs are hard to see especially when you busy getting ready for the stage yourself or packing up and thinking about the next one. The other two I didnt know about until this thread.

I guess my point was while maybe there were some specific instances of NDs, the match director harped on safety and never made any statements that would let anyone think unsafe shots would be tolerated, downrange or not. I'd be willing to bet that those NDs were not brought to the MD for a ruling, and calls were made by the RO on the stage.

 

[generalzip]

I'm not trying to defend anyone other than the RO. I even said multiple times I'm not taking sides and my original comments were not even addressing the video. Just correcting you on what the MD actually said as lte and I were actually there for the match brief. I understand it's a passionate topic but there's really no need to talk down to people as that doesn't solve anything at best and at worst tends to turn people off from being open to productive conversation.

For the record, any ND's in my mind are unacceptable, let alone 3 if that is actually the case. I don't know if the winner had an ND or not as I haven't seen any video of the stage in question. I too want to work to make the PRS as a whole a safer community. I think we all have the same goal here however to deny the possibility that there may be more than one way to skin the cat is a bit naive.

 

[Masked]

Now that I don't know. I will say the ND that was in video was actually in my squad, and I dont know that anyone saw it. Prone NDs are hard to see especially when you busy getting ready for the stage yourself or packing up and thinking about the next one. The other two I didnt know about until this thread.

I guess my point was while maybe there were some specific instances of NDs, the match director harped on safety and never made any statements that would let anyone think unsafe shots would be tolerated, downrange or not. I'd be willing to bet that those NDs were not brought to the MD for a ruling, and calls were made by the RO on the stage.

I think that's the core issue.

Why are ANY unsafe shots tolerated, downrange or not?

The MD is/was clearly made aware of them and called them, "not a big deal".

It's a fundamental failure at multiple levels of our sport, not just one or two. - It also belies any ounce of self respect or personal responsibility.

 

[Lowlight]

Pathetic,

Your defense is misplaced, and clearly, you are looking to sow doubt and act as a buffer

if you wanted to make things better you could, instead, more of the same, hence why the conversation is here and not on FB as Joel was shouted down and made to look like the bad guy

I said on numerous occasions too this had nothing to do with Laura she was acting as spotter and scorekeeper and the ROs are no longer Range Safety Officers, they are scorekeepers. Yet we keep bringing it back to subjects that don't matter, which is the game you all oke to play.

Keep deflecting it has worked as nothing will change until someone stops a round.

 

[Girth Brooks]

I can set a trigger tech diamond to 4oz and it will las a drop test.

Doesn’t make it safe with a shooter on it.

And I have a Shilen that goes to 2oz. I have completely disregarded it as any sort of PRS or competition rifle because it takes nothing to have it go off. I think there should be a stipulation on how light your trigger can go for these things. They mandate all sorts of equipment in professional sports, why not make one that prevents these dangerous happenings.

 

[HogsLife]

I'm not trying to defend anyone other than the RO. I even said multiple times I'm not taking sides and my original comments were not even addressing the video. Just correcting you on what the MD actually said as lte and I were actually there for the match brief. I understand it's a passionate topic but there's really no need to talk down to people as that doesn't solve anything at best and at worst tends to turn people off from being open to productive conversation.

For the record, any ND's in my mind are unacceptable, let alone 3 if that is actually the case. I don't know if the winner had an ND or not as I haven't seen any video of the stage in question. I too want to work to make the PRS as a whole a safer community. I think we all have the same goal here however to deny the possibility that there may be more than one way to skin the cat is a bit naive.

An ND is an ND. Only one way to skin that cat.......Zero Tolerance.

Lack of Muzzle Awareness is what it is. Only one way to skin that cat..... Zero Tolerance

Leaving the line with anything other than Condition 4... Same Same.....Zero Tolerance

Dropping your weapon system regardless if it break 180 Deg is unacceptable. ..... Zero Tolerance.

Lack of Integrity...., Zero Tolerance

Many ways to skin a cat when dealing lesser violations but IMO, the ones I’ve just stated are extremely dangerous, and can not be tolerated or excused.

 

[morganlamprecht]

people should either start calling things on the spot or STFU on Monday morning, after the fact, because the amount of 2nd hand info and conflicting stories that get twisted and blown out of proportion aint helpin anything

i cant follow whether the MD said NDs were encouraged or frowned upon by this point... (saracasm)

ive had plenty of 2nd hand stories get back to me (that i was present during), and rarely are they ever completely accurate

 

[generalzip]

An ND is an ND. Only one way to skin that cat.......Zero Tolerance.

Lack of Muzzle Awareness is what it is. Only one way to skin that car..... Zero Tolerance

Leaving the line with anything other than Condition 4... Same Same.....Zero Tolerance

Dropping your weapon system regardless if it break 180 Deg is unacceptable. ..... Zero Tolerance.

Lack of Integrity...., Zero Tolerance

Many ways to skin a cat when dealing lesser violations but IMO, the ones I’ve just stated are extremely dangerous, and can not be tolerated or excused.

I agree with all of that. I'm referring to the different fixes people have proposed like trigger weight limits etc. If this ND was caught I'm sure it would have resulted in a DQ. It simply wasn't caught. In regards to the other two people keep bringing up I had no idea they even occurred and any guess as to what happened is just speculation on my part. I'm not proposing we tolerate unsafe acts. I'm suggesting there's more than one way to implement new rules to help increase safety. Sorry if I hadn't made that clear in my earlier post.

 

[HogsLife]

I agree with all of that. I'm referring to the different fixes people have proposed like trigger weight limits etc. If this ND was caught I'm sure it would have resulted in a DQ. It simply wasn't caught. In regards to the other two people keep bringing up I had no idea they even occurred and any guess as to what happened is just speculation on my part. I'm not proposing we tolerate unsafe acts. I'm suggesting there's more than one way to implement new rules to help increase safety. Sorry if I hadn't made that clear in my earlier post.

10-4 and agreed

 

[Lowlight]

Perception can be a reality,

That is why you have to make these rules bulletproof, playing around with words, and injecting things nobody is gonna relate to like a 10ft rule is the problem. They can distract from any bad situation if you let them, spinning has become an art form.

It's about being a professional with a firearm, you all want your due, your sponsorship, your check for winning but if you are willing to compromise these principles for the illusion of success you are a fraud. It's about sliding the scale for some to suit their current needs in order to place higher, it's a culture, a mindset. It's this very mindset that lets a shooter have a blatant ND with no control and no idea where that round went take an extra point for making a mistake.

Look at it this way, he had an ND, it was not called, in his mind he was within the 10ft rule and let it go, meanwhile there is no accounting for where that round went. Luckily the range is big enough to absorb it, what happens when it happens at a range with 90 acres of land ?

 

[Girth Brooks]

I just find the defense at hand usually ends up along the lines of 'No one has been hurt yet", and with that mentality, you would rather have someone injured maimed or killed before you change your ways. Hind sight is 20/20 but foresight is better.

 

[Precision Underground]

I know three different guys who are cabinet makers. Every one of them is missing at least one finger, not exaggerating. Every one of them can tell you how many times they did something on a table saw they should not have done and nothing happened. 99% of the time you can get away with doing things you shouldn’t do with dangerous tools because there are multiple layers of safety. But all it takes is one time when the conditions are right for disaster to weasel it’s way through the layers of safety measures and then the one measure that you were lax on would have been the one that would have saved you. Luckily for a cabinet maker, the price is a only finger.

Most of the time a ND downrange isn’t going to do much harm but that’s not the point. That is a symptom of the larger disease. The disease is lax safety protocol, no doubt a result of no one ever being shot at these matches. I’ll rephrase that not as lax safety protocol, but as lax enforcement of protocol. As @Lowlight said, sooner or later some unlucky person is going to end up being a backstop and then things will change. THEN it will be taken as seriously as some of us are making it. Let the possibility of future tragedy dictate how serious it is as you can change the future. If a past tragedy wakes you up there is no changing it.

 

[morganlamprecht]

so are training courses which require people testing out of before being allowed to compete going to start being required? cause thats the only way i see anything being ACTUALLY fixed...the root of this is changing PEOPLE

no rule in place, enforced or not is going to truly stop a ND that sails a range and causes damage

ive competed at high levels in various sports/competition and people are the same in every one of them for the most part...you have a majority that follow the rules to the best of their ability and then handfuls who skirt it every chance they get

nothing is special in precision rifle with how people act other than we have dangerous weapons...putting a weapon in someones hand doesnt change who they are and how they operate (it should, but in reality it doesnt always)

people argue ref calls in everything, pros use PEDs, people get caught cheating and bending rules in everything, they get punished, next guy does the same til hes caught also...theres always a next guy...

ive seen shooters argue safety DQs in pistol and carbine matches....after the fact theyll make a FB post about it and pretend it was a great learning experience for everyone...blah blah

ive seen more NDs at pistol/carbine matches than i have rifle matches and i only attend 2-4 per year vs 15-20 rifle...them being strict on DQs hasnt fixed anything for them...go to any pistol/carbine match around here and you can listen to all the ricochets leaving the range and flyin over head

someone sails the range on a small property and a random person takes a bullet...

"o but we DQ'd him, its cool, he broke the rules..."

dudes still leakin...

 

[Lowlight]

Deflect, deflect, deflect,

It's easier to ignore and deflect than to fix and possibly inconvenience someone, I get it.

It means more ROs or making the shooters serve as safety officers, so that is a non-starter as nobody wants to have any responsibility they just want to show up and shoot.

It means we can't be everyone's best buddy if we have to tax them for a rules violation, it's hard to say you fucked up to a friend so why make me. That is just as mean as shooting me

 

[morganlamprecht]

theres no deflection...

how many ROs would have stopped this ND? when the shooter grabbed the trigger.....

find an actual fix...rules dont fix anything they just sound good on paper and feel good to people talkin about them

 

[Lowlight]

It's not about the RO, it's about the mindset.

The shooter should have stopped himself and said something about the point being awarded.

Rules do fix things, rules adjust mindset it's the culture of gaming the rules which causes the problem

It won't fix it so why bother, great way to look at it.

The fix is not the rule, the fix is having the rules taken serious enough to call your foul.

 

[HogsLife]

Deflect, deflect, deflect,

It's easier to ignore and deflect than to fix and possibly inconvenience someone, I get it.

It means more ROs or making the shooters serve as safety officers, so that is a non-starter as nobody wants to have any responsibility they just want to show up and shoot.

It means we can't be everyone's best buddy if we have to tax them for a rules violation, it's hard to say you fucked up to a friend so why make me. That is just as mean as shooting me

It’s unfortunate that everyone’s #1 concern is scoring, and safety 2nd.

MD’s / RO’s to run safety / match

Shooters to score / spot.

They wanna cheat each other out of scores, let them weed themselves out, kick each other’s ass, etc etc. Who gives a shit. At least safety won’t be the issue. They may bitch and moan endlessly about their scores but at least they’ll be alive to do it.

I’d rather be trying to fix that problem than a safety problem.

EDIT:

Here’s a thought,

If PRS wants to be considered a legit sport / organization, then whoever’s running PRS needs to establish individuals that are PRS Certified Score Keepers in each state where PRS Matches are run. In order for it to be legit PRS Match, PRS score keepers are onsite and run the score keeping / spotting for the Match, they then either report the scores or input the scores for each shooter into the PRS System.

This frees up volunteer RO’s to run the match / safety, and shooters to shoot.

Yes, this means PRS will need to actually get involved, spend some $$$ , shot a 4th / 5th pick at prize table, or something to make it worth the score keepers time.

This addresses numerous issues. RO’s/ Safety personnel, scoring personnel, shooters bumping each other’s scores, favoritism etc.

 

[bigdaddydmd]

I was told tonight, that the MD said in the initial match briefing that NDs that happened "downrange" will be excused, or in other words, never happened. Don't sweat the small shit, if you torch one off we are all good as long as it is downrange.

I guess that or this is the direction the series wants to go, overlooking the basic firearms safety rules. Why bother discussing if the mindset from the top is don't worry about it. It's one way to eliminate the Range Officer problem, just have scorekeepers, safety is now officially optional.

I really thought this was about creating a professional series with the best shooters in the world. Instead, we'll just dumb it down, hide the failures and collect our checks for the Best Toaster for the Gun Guys Man Cave.

Talk about a very, very fast way to stop the growth of the sport and turn off new shooters. Especially the new shooters coming out of the military where safety is paramount, first and last thing addressed, and significant consequences result in failing to adhere to safety standards. At this early point in my "hobby" I can count the number of matches I have participated in on one hand. I am amateur precision long range shooter who transitioned to PRS post military and realized Big Army didn't teach me shit about ballistics/long range/how to engage anything over 300m. I really am enjoying this sport, but this kind of disregard instantly turns me off from ever wanting to shoot in a "national" or "sanctioned" PRS match. I'll just stick to my local matches where I know the MD and RO's will keep safety first and keep working on my skills. I'll be damned if I survived the sand box just to come home and have an impromptu meeting with my maker arraigned because the series wants to overlook basic safety rules. Unfortunately, many other novice and rookie long range shooters will feel the same way and will gravitate to other shooting disciplines.

 

[sabrecross]

theres no deflection...

how many ROs would have stopped this ND? when the shooter grabbed the trigger.....

find an actual fix...rules dont fix anything they just sound good on paper and feel good to people talkin about them

What the hell are you saying? The shooter closes the bolt while still positioning, grabs & pulls the trigger, and fires the shot. The match is over for that shooter and he is DQed....that is if you have a shooter with integrity and/ or someone with eyes on the shooter. It's not exactly rocket science...