Never been seen before.....by me.

[pmclaine]

Was sizing/trimming some 2X 5.56 brass on the S1050 using a Dillon Rapid Trim.

Brass is WCC 08.

Noticed this come out of the Trim die....

Die is set up to produce brass -.002 on a reading headspace mic....looks like this one came out at .0 or SAAMI spec.

This is more typical...

Don't think I am oversizing.

Think that one piece of brass portends a problem for the lot?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Being WCC, I’d assume it’s just not quality enough to get a ton of loads before having issues.

 

[BuLLet]

Looks like it was a bit brittle, and the trimming operation ripped the case neck/shoulder off from the stress. I see 2 times loaded... bad batch of brass maybe.

 

[Isaiah's Blacksmith]

So, need more info. Like did you notice the separation or not notice it was trimming the neck and shoulder off (kidding). I may be mistaken that WCC is military brass. Like where did you get this brass, anyway

 

[pmclaine]

Being WCC, I’d assume it’s just not quality enough to get a ton of loads before having issues.

I'm tossing after this one.

 

[pmclaine]

Looks like it was a bit brittle, and the trimming operation ripped the case neck/shoulder off from the stress. I see 2 times loaded... bad batch of brass maybe.

Couldn't find the top of the case. Guessing the vacuum on the Trim die sucked it away.

 

[pmclaine]

So, need more info. Like did you notice the separation or not notice it was trimming the neck and shoulder off (kidding). I may be mistaken that WCC is military brass. Like where did you get this brass, anyway

Work.

Off the clean concrete floor.

 

[BuLLet]

I've got 1000's and 1000's of these same cases from once fired PD brass. WCC and most of it is from the 80's and 90's. Never an issue like this, quality must have gone down hill.....

 

[Baron23]

Well, yeah....that's definitely VERY trimmed!

 

[Namekagon]

I’d anneal if you keep them, just to be safe. And a piece-by-piece visual inspection at the same time.

 

[mtang45]

Work hardened brass that had become brittle. Probably not annealed at the factory. I've seen this before but it has been decades ago and don't recall the specifics and far as brand.

 

[supercorndogs]

Annealing is part of the brass drawing process. They anneal all brass when its made.

I have had CHS about half inch lower than that before. Could be thinning higher than usual.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I spent a shitload of time sorting some LC brass when I first started using a 223 trainer. A significant amount of it died in 5 or 6 firings. That was annealing every firing and setting the shoulder back .001" from fired case measurement. Almost all of it had head separations. After that I bought 1000 pcs of starline brass. I have lost zero to case head separations or split necks, but I have lost some in the grass.

I won't use military brass for precision rifles where I want to reload the same brass over and over ever again. When you get 15x to 30x reloads out of good brass and mild loads it is a kick in the shorts to start o er after 5 or 6 reloads. Some started to go after 1 and then many after 3. By the time the startline showed up I was getting CHS nearly every shot. Mine were also about 1/2" closer to the case head than that.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Was it the .300 Blackout trimmer accidentally

 

[Choid]

I spent a shitload of time sorting some LC brass when I first started using a 223 trainer. A significant amount of it died in 5 or 6 firings. That was annealing every firing and setting the shoulder back .001" from fired case measurement. Almost all of it had head separations. After that I bought 1000 pcs of starline brass. I have lost zero to case head separations or split necks, but I have lost some in the grass.

I won't use military brass for precision rifles where I want to reload the same brass over and over ever again. When you get 15x to 30x reloads out of good brass and mild loads it is a kick in the shorts to start o er after 5 or 6 reloads. Some started to go after 1 and then many after 3. By the time the startline showed up I was getting CHS nearly every shot. Mine were also about 1/2" closer to the case head than that.

This is my experience as well. It just isn't worth the hassle.

 

[Bigfatcock]

 

[pmclaine]

Was it the .300 Blackout trimmer accidentally

Nah .223.

I run a standard size die in position 1 to 80% the brass than it finish sizes at the Rapid Trim.

 

[pmclaine]

This brass will be tossed after this load.

Next time I'm up Sig Sauer I will be hitting their brass barrel.

 

[300winemag]

Strange, I’ve had about 2 dozen LC 223 brass split about 3/8”- 1/2” above the case head over a lot of years of prairie doggin. Have to visually sort looking for lines forming there every reload now and throw them out when a faint ring line shows up.

 

[pmclaine]

With the taper mouth Dillon dies there always seems to be a line at the case head.

I've yet to ever have my bent paper clip catch on a seperating case.

My 06 brass, KA headstamp, is up to its 6 th loading or so an de I'm tossing because primer pockets seem to be getting loose.

I don't generally load for speed so I'm not high pressure.

I'm intending to load these with 8208xbr, don't recall the load off the top of my head but it's a pretty standard goto when using 77s.

 

[supercorndogs]

23.2-23.7

 

[Steel head]

23.2-23.7

 

[pmclaine]

23.2-23.7

Yeah I think I am 23.2 but I didnt want to guess in open forum.

 

[308pirate]

Annealing is part of the brass drawing process.

Annealing is done after all drawing operations are complete, not during.

And yes, process steps get missed in every industry every now and then.

 

[supercorndogs]

Annealing is done after all drawing operations are complete, not during.

And yes, process steps get missed in every industry every now and then.

Nope.

Drawing Brass | How Cartridge Cases Are Made | Peterson Cartridge

See the brass rifle casing manufacturing process at Peterson Cartridge from raw brass coils to the finished casings we deliver to you.

www.petersoncartridge.com

 

[spife7980]

Annealing is done after all drawing operations are complete, not during.

And yes, process steps get missed in every industry every now and then.

Not according to the plant tour videos I’ve seen

 

[NoDopes]

I'm assuming you should both be right. Anneal to form, and anneal as final step to remove the work hardening.

 

[308pirate]

Not according to the plant tour videos I’ve seen

You can't anneal brass that you're not done forming yet. Not unless you want it to be hard when it's done.

Seeing something done and understanding it are not the same thing.

 

[mtang45]

I think the point here is that during drawing/forming process there are a number of annealing steps to soften the brass and make it more workable, then followed by a final annealing. Any failure to properly anneal at any one of those annealing stages could be enough to stress the brass to a point where a failure like what @pmclaine experienced, is possible after a couple of firings.

Yes brass gets annealed during the manufacturing process, is it always consistent? Most likely very consistent, but variation does occur in any manufacturing and in this case it may have been extreme and outside the acceptable limits.

 

[pmclaine]

I think the point here is that during drawing/forming process there are a number of annealing steps to soften the brass and make it more workable, then followed by a final annealing. Any failure to properly anneal at any one of those annealing stages could be enough to stress the brass to a point where a failure like what @pmclaine experienced, is possible after a couple of firings.

Yes brass gets annealed during the manufacturing process, is it always consistent? Most likely very consistent, but variation does occur in any manufacturing and in this case it may have been extreme and outside the acceptable limits.

Just for clarity my brass was damaged in the trim/sizing process while under a spinning router motor.

In my optomistic glass half full mind I am considering that the mouth of the brass may have had a burr or defect that instead of slowly introducing the brass to the cutter it caused a more violent introction and tore the case just below the shoulder.

Thinking anything else may effect my groups and introduce a flinch.

 

[mtang45]

You can't anneal brass that you're not done forming yet. Not unless you want it to be hard when it's done.

Seeing something done and understanding it are not the same thing.

Annealing makes brass softer not harder.

 

[308pirate]

Annealing makes brass softer not harder.

What I said went right over your head.

But thanks anyway

 

[mtang45]

What I said went right over your head.

But thanks anyway

Well, your comment that brass cannot be annealed until you are done forming is clearly wrong. Maybe you should have a better understanding of what you are talking about.

 

[RegionRat]

Here is a little night stand reading... see the parts about starting with bulk and ending up with a cartridge case.... He mentions the annealing at several steps. This is a little dated, but the basics of production are the same these days.

https://ia801603.us.archive.org/28/...tion Making-NRA by G. Frost-(1990) _text.pdf

 

[308pirate]

Well, your comment that brass cannot be annealed until you are done forming is clearly wrong. Maybe you should have a better understanding of what you are talking about.

You can anneal brass any time you want. In fact, it's often done in between forming steps depending on how far it is worked so that it doesn't crack halfway through. But you have to do one FINAL anneal after all forming is done because brass hardens ever time it's mechanically worked.

I thought I didn't have to spell it all out but I guess I do

I do this shit for a living. I don't need amateurs telling me how it works.

 

[spife7980]

Annealing is done after all drawing operations are complete, not during.

And yes, process steps get missed in every industry every now and then.

You can anneal brass any time you want. In fact, it's often done in between forming steps depending on how far it is worked so that it doesn't crack halfway through. But you have to do one FINAL anneal after all forming is done because brass hardens ever time it's mechanically worked.

I thought I didn't have to spell it all out but I guess I do

I do this shit for a living. I don't need amateurs telling me how it works.

bolded for emphasis on why people are responding to the words you wrote.

 

[clcustom1911]

I've got 1000's and 1000's of these same cases from once fired PD brass. WCC and most of it is from the 80's and 90's. Never an issue like this, quality must have gone down hill.....

I've had Winchester ammo not chamber in a factory Rem 700 7mm RemMag (7 of 20 wouldn't allow bolt to close) and have stiff/sticky bolt with their 140gr 6.5 creed. This was probably 3-4 years ago.

I won't use Winchester rifle ammo.

 

[supercorndogs]

You can anneal brass any time you want. In fact, it's often done in between forming steps depending on how far it is worked so that it doesn't crack halfway through. But you have to do one FINAL anneal after all forming is done because brass hardens ever time it's mechanically worked.

I thought I didn't have to spell it all out but I guess I do

I do this shit for a living. I don't need amateurs telling me how it works.

My post: Annealing is part of the brass drawing process.

Your rebuttal; Annealing is done after all drawing operations are complete, not during.

"Not during" No amount of mental gymnastics can explain away precisely what that means.

What company are you making brass cases for? Surely not the same one, you were an engineer building automatic transmissions for...
Will these cases be headstamped Honda 5 speed?

I bet even if the engineer at one of these companies didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. The guys who run the machines would know to anneal during the drawing process.