I think we need a new factory 30cal magnum. The 300 Ultra and 300 Norma Mag is too much of a good thing. Barrel burners for sure. The 300 Accuracy International (30-375 Ruger) isn`t going to happen. With todays new high BC bullets, 215gr, 225gr, and 230gr bullets, I believe the 300 Dakota would be nice if the rim would fit standard magnum boltface. I believe if a major brass manufacture like Lapua, Norma, RWS would make a 30 cal cartridge with a case about 2.5"-2.6" long, similar to the 300 Ultra mag but shorter, it would be a seller. Just my opinion.
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Range Report New 30cal magnum?
- Thread starter excaliber
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300 AI is still in play. Both parties involved want to move forward but business has been good the past few years. Just not enough hours in the day.
If you want a 30-375 Ruger just get a reamer made up for it and do one, there is no need to wait for a company to come out with one. I just a 30-375 Ruger reamer from Kiff for an upcoming build, 6 weeks after Dave and I discussed the reamer it showed up. I just need to find time on the lathe.
Only problem with the 30-375 is Hornady is the only manufacture of the brass. I`m not a big fan of Hornady brass. Even their match brass is low quality.
I agree that Hornady brass is not the greatest, I am not building this gun for competing in F-class as most of my other builds are so I decided to try something other than Lapua brass.
I built a 375 Ruger shortly after they came out and the Hornady brass was better than Win worse than Lapua, but was more than fine for an African rifle. I have heard that Hornady brass is inconsistent.
I will se what the results are.
I built a 375 Ruger shortly after they came out and the Hornady brass was better than Win worse than Lapua, but was more than fine for an African rifle. I have heard that Hornady brass is inconsistent.
I will se what the results are.
I keep hearing that Hornady's brass is low quality, inconsistent, etc.
I've put 12,000 (yes, THOUSAND) rounds through the same 550 pieces of 6.5CM brass, some has 15 reloads, some has close to 50. It's starting to fall apart now with the various high cycle ones but the stuff still shoots really well. Like, 1/2MOA @ 1000yd really well and this is bipod/bag shooting, not F-class type.
Similarly, I have 300WM and 30-06 brass from Hornady that has 10+ reloads and still 1/2-3/4 MOA performance at 1k. The 300W has been out to 2000yd with 208's and it stays in 1MOA vertically. I can't reliably shoot the wind into 1MOA at that range though.
I hear it from folks, they swear the stuff is crap, but they don't actually have much experience running it themselves.
Perhaps the 375 Ruger brass is poor? Talking with Mr. Tooley though I haven't heard such reports and he probably has more rounds downrange with that caliber than anyone else I can think of.
I've put 12,000 (yes, THOUSAND) rounds through the same 550 pieces of 6.5CM brass, some has 15 reloads, some has close to 50. It's starting to fall apart now with the various high cycle ones but the stuff still shoots really well. Like, 1/2MOA @ 1000yd really well and this is bipod/bag shooting, not F-class type.
Similarly, I have 300WM and 30-06 brass from Hornady that has 10+ reloads and still 1/2-3/4 MOA performance at 1k. The 300W has been out to 2000yd with 208's and it stays in 1MOA vertically. I can't reliably shoot the wind into 1MOA at that range though.
I hear it from folks, they swear the stuff is crap, but they don't actually have much experience running it themselves.
Perhaps the 375 Ruger brass is poor? Talking with Mr. Tooley though I haven't heard such reports and he probably has more rounds downrange with that caliber than anyone else I can think of.
I guess a design with a velocity goal between 300WM or 300WSM and 300RUM would be an OK thing an d I'm all for wildcats.
But...
My 300WSM shoots very well with 208 A-Max at ~2750
My 300RUM shoots incredible with 210 VLD at ~3050
Both can be easily pushed another 100fps+
Someone is building a 300 "Montana" based on a Dakota that looks to be dead in the middle. Sounds like that is what you are looking for.
or
Pretty much a 30/375 Ruger (maybe .100 shorter body)
But...
My 300WSM shoots very well with 208 A-Max at ~2750
My 300RUM shoots incredible with 210 VLD at ~3050
Both can be easily pushed another 100fps+
Someone is building a 300 "Montana" based on a Dakota that looks to be dead in the middle. Sounds like that is what you are looking for.
or
Pretty much a 30/375 Ruger (maybe .100 shorter body)
I just did some modeling in QuickDesign and QuickLoad
I know the ballistics match my 300WSM and 300RUM but I 'normalized' to a 30" barrel, 210VLD which adds ~50fps from my actual 300WSM 28"
All dimensions except body length are pretty much the same. I used H1000 powder model for the 300RUM as that is what I use. The 300WSM is currently on H4831sc.
300RUM 2984 @ 62424PSI Case length 2.85
300 new 2918 @ 62398PSI Case length 2.475 Pretty close to a 30/375 Ruger about .100 shorter.
300WSM 2914 @ 62139PSI Case length 2.1
I could get more detailed but I'm supposed to be at work right now.
Of course in the real world there would be a huge difference but if you are looking for more than a 300WM/300@WM and less than a 300RUM. Makes sense to me.
I know the ballistics match my 300WSM and 300RUM but I 'normalized' to a 30" barrel, 210VLD which adds ~50fps from my actual 300WSM 28"
All dimensions except body length are pretty much the same. I used H1000 powder model for the 300RUM as that is what I use. The 300WSM is currently on H4831sc.
300RUM 2984 @ 62424PSI Case length 2.85
300 new 2918 @ 62398PSI Case length 2.475 Pretty close to a 30/375 Ruger about .100 shorter.
300WSM 2914 @ 62139PSI Case length 2.1
I could get more detailed but I'm supposed to be at work right now.
Of course in the real world there would be a huge difference but if you are looking for more than a 300WM/300@WM and less than a 300RUM. Makes sense to me.
Ive always thought a .300 Lapua Short Mag would be sweet. Chop a .338 Lapua down to WSM length or maybe a bit longer with 30 degree shoulder. Should come out to right at .300 Win Mag capacity or a bit more with better brass.
Honestly though, when it comes to accuracy the .300 WSM is the current king of the hill among the .300 mags. Just take a look at the IBS 1000yd Heavy Gun or Williamsport 1000yd Heavy Gun benchrest results and equipment lists. The WSM`s have taken over from the full-length H&H wildcats, to the point now where if its not a 6 Dasher that wins you can bet its a .300 WSM.
Honestly though, when it comes to accuracy the .300 WSM is the current king of the hill among the .300 mags. Just take a look at the IBS 1000yd Heavy Gun or Williamsport 1000yd Heavy Gun benchrest results and equipment lists. The WSM`s have taken over from the full-length H&H wildcats, to the point now where if its not a 6 Dasher that wins you can bet its a .300 WSM.
The new 26 nobler is a shortened 7 mm ultra mag case. That case necked back up to 308 would be exactly what u want....but how will brass availability be?
The 300 Norma still has the Big bolt face, but it gets good velocity with less powder than the 300 RUM. There is another cartridge called the 300 SKADI, that is a shortened and improved 300 Norma built for efficiency and accuracy. It's a cartridge designed for F class, but it's a performer.
Moving down is the 300 Dakota. Given a 3.6 inch action, you could seat VLDs out long with the dakota. Being (loosely) based on the 404 Jeff case, it could be formed from RUM cases cut to length with forming dies since the proprietary brass is hard to get. IIRC, Dakota was purchased by Freedom group, so i bet Remington builds Dakota brass--I can't guarantee that, but I suspect it.
Moving down is the 300 Dakota. Given a 3.6 inch action, you could seat VLDs out long with the dakota. Being (loosely) based on the 404 Jeff case, it could be formed from RUM cases cut to length with forming dies since the proprietary brass is hard to get. IIRC, Dakota was purchased by Freedom group, so i bet Remington builds Dakota brass--I can't guarantee that, but I suspect it.
Love the 300 Win Mag. I own a 338 Lapua, but have shot some 300 Win that were just lasers. They are inherently accurate and a hell of a workhorse. The 300 Weatherby will push those big pills at a nice velocity and standard mag bolt face, only a little longer than the case you identified.
I dropped my parts off at Joe Collier's Thursday and he's tinkering with a 300wby wildcat. It has a 42* typical shoulder blown forward slightly from where the 300wby radiused shoulder is. Slightly more case capacity than a 300wby and he said he's getting 3350fps with the 175gr bullets.
He's calling it the 30 Collier and while looking at a primary use of hunting, the extra capacity might be nice to push the 215gr and 230gr Bergers.
He's calling it the 30 Collier and while looking at a primary use of hunting, the extra capacity might be nice to push the 215gr and 230gr Bergers.
I'm thinking the long action 300 WSM and appropriate throat is all I need without going up to the ultra mag. Pretty stiff competition in the 30cal magnum category. Any new 300 mag has a long uphill fight or a quick downward spiral............. Steep country in either case.
A few things to consider in making a bigger badder cartridge in any caliber. We'll talk 30 cal since that's the topic at hand. Downstairs above my loading bench is a 30-378 WBY cartridge loaded with a Sierra 250 gr ( initially, they were 250 grains, but were so thin in the ogive they would explode going down range, so the bullet was dropped to 240 grains) given to me by none other than Earl Chronister of The Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Benchrest Club. Earl and others were trying to push past 3000 fps, but Earl told me the cartridge shot best at about 2750 fps from a 32" barrel.
My 300WinMag does that from a 26 to 28" barrel. With a lot less powder and recoil.
Why?
I wonder what Earl could have done with that bullet if he had shot it from a barrel with a 1:12 or 1:14 twist at 3200 fps or so. Assuming we want to shoot heavier and longer bullets at faster speeds, we have to accommodate a few laws of ballistics. It may seem silly to use a 1:14 barrel ( wild guess ) to shoot a 240 grain 30 caliber bullet, but if we push it at those speeds, we have consider rotational stability. Just as a fast twist barrel can "overspin" light bullets, so too can increasing bullet velocity without reducing barrel twist. But wait, as cartridge size increases, such as a proposed necked down 408 Chey Tac case, we need a stouter action to handle it - should not be a problem given the actions we have. What its going to take is someone or some group to set a goal and use both modern ballistic theory and good old fashioned experimentation to develop a "Super 30".
I think the critical problem is going to be bullet stability - but hasn't that always been the case? Bullet construction has improved with CNC solid bullet design as opposed to copper over lead core, but the spectre of overspin still lurks.
I personally would love to see a 408 CT sized case push a 240 grain (or heavier) solid grain bullet downrange in the 3200 to 3400 fps range, and I think it can be done. There will be tradeoffs such as shorter barrel and brass life, increased recoil and firing signature, not to mention the cost per round as long as any such cartridge remains a wildcat.
The 300 WBY, itself an offshoot of the 300 H&H has been the case that spawned a hundred offspring, including 308 Baer, a popular 30 cal wildcat conceived by Bruce Baer of the Pennsylvania Club, essentially a 300 WBY blown out to 35 degrees. If you look at the results of 1000 yard BR, the 300 Win Mags, Wbys, and their derivatives predominate the winning columns. What we need is a different approach to raise muzzle velocity in a stable flight while reducing flight time, and therefore, the time for gravity, wind, and other moments of force and misdirection to act on the projectile.
But, hasn't that always been the goal?
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My 300WinMag does that from a 26 to 28" barrel. With a lot less powder and recoil.
Why?
I wonder what Earl could have done with that bullet if he had shot it from a barrel with a 1:12 or 1:14 twist at 3200 fps or so. Assuming we want to shoot heavier and longer bullets at faster speeds, we have to accommodate a few laws of ballistics. It may seem silly to use a 1:14 barrel ( wild guess ) to shoot a 240 grain 30 caliber bullet, but if we push it at those speeds, we have consider rotational stability. Just as a fast twist barrel can "overspin" light bullets, so too can increasing bullet velocity without reducing barrel twist. But wait, as cartridge size increases, such as a proposed necked down 408 Chey Tac case, we need a stouter action to handle it - should not be a problem given the actions we have. What its going to take is someone or some group to set a goal and use both modern ballistic theory and good old fashioned experimentation to develop a "Super 30".
I think the critical problem is going to be bullet stability - but hasn't that always been the case? Bullet construction has improved with CNC solid bullet design as opposed to copper over lead core, but the spectre of overspin still lurks.
I personally would love to see a 408 CT sized case push a 240 grain (or heavier) solid grain bullet downrange in the 3200 to 3400 fps range, and I think it can be done. There will be tradeoffs such as shorter barrel and brass life, increased recoil and firing signature, not to mention the cost per round as long as any such cartridge remains a wildcat.
The 300 WBY, itself an offshoot of the 300 H&H has been the case that spawned a hundred offspring, including 308 Baer, a popular 30 cal wildcat conceived by Bruce Baer of the Pennsylvania Club, essentially a 300 WBY blown out to 35 degrees. If you look at the results of 1000 yard BR, the 300 Win Mags, Wbys, and their derivatives predominate the winning columns. What we need is a different approach to raise muzzle velocity in a stable flight while reducing flight time, and therefore, the time for gravity, wind, and other moments of force and misdirection to act on the projectile.
But, hasn't that always been the goal?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
A few days ago I did post about this very same subject on this 300 norma thread...
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...252699-300-norma-vs-300-hulk.html#post3136462
Interesting that some folks who want to upgrade the WM are realizing the potential of some casings in std. bolt faces.
I am a huge fun of the 308 bore. I have been shooting the 308W and winmag for many years and I cannot get enough of it.
I tried larger and small bores and like them too for several purposes but for a do it all, do it pretty well always come back to the
308 and that includes also shooting within a reasonable budget.
I know what you are thinking, if you are shooting the winmag what else could possibly be needed but let me tell you ocassionally
you will reach for the heaviest bullets your case can launch at decent speeds and wheter is for an moose hunt using a long shot
or just to see if you can hit some target very far away you want grain.
Of course is not just the grain alone but some decent ballistics that can take that grain to some distance and still retain the velocity
to do whatever needs to be done. In case of game you want to stay withing the minimum recommended by the manufacturer and
if you can maybe look for a softer bullet depending on the game and weight.
The win-mag might be overkill for many situations but at the other hand if one gets comfortable with it one might find surprising how
versatile it can be. With all that said the winmag suffers from a little problem that might not be well known but that it definitely can impact
its performance.
Before you jump into the RUM and 300-378 or any other crazy alternative please hear me out. Those are clearly overbored, also suffer
from case design problems and or they require very expensive equipment that is hard to justify.
The winmag might not be perfect but it is super popular and unlike conventional thinking it can be very accurate for a belted magnum just
like the 7rem mag and several others.
The issue is that if I take the best bullets that the 308 department has to offer then the winmag falls a tad short literally. Not by much but the long
case with short neck and the imposed max COAL by the longest magazines makes one wonders if there is an easy popular upgrade
without going with exotic options and w/o overboring.
These are the options I have been considering for re-barreling a heavy rifle.
Initially I though about the popular WSM reamed to work in a long action using one of the extra free bore match reamers. It makes sort of a 6mm
norma BR in 308 version and on steroids. I looked at the data and ran the nrs. in quick load and found no benefit in spreads and reach. I needed more powder.
The next I looked at what is a very popular wildcat that is the 300/375.
Here is the 1st from the left. This is nothing more than a ruger 375 case necked down to 30 caliber.
pic courtesy form nz.hunting friends and forum.
This follows the right directives and I would not be surprised for this to become a successfully commercial version but
I don't want to deal with wildcats for this and also I don't think the 375 ruger takes maximum advantage.
You see, here is the catch...
Ruger and Hornady made a very wise move offering a sensible yet powerful rimless straight case option that works
on popular actions like rem 700, savage 10/11 and mauser actions among others w/o requiring extended actions,
and custom and expensive cuts for the action. Also uses a rim size of .534 that is the popular bolt face for many magnums
belted and straight. But since the appearance of the WSM and RUM line among others one wonders why not to go
with a slightly rebated rim and wider base/case that will further add to the capacity like the case with all the derivates
from the 404 Jeffry and beyond.
So one starts thinking like what about a cartrige that is a tad shorter than the winchester magnum with a more reasonable
neck, with the full .550 diameter at the base vs. the .534 of the 375 ruger but yet it provides a rebated rim of .534?
Many have gone the route of pushing back a RUM for the purpose of using the best and longest bullets and w/o running
over the ogive. One might also think why not use a 300 norma magnum or 338 lapua magnum and neck this down but
then again those use special bolts, are very expensive and will end up super overbored. Plus those work great for what
they do that is in the 338 department.
So going back to the RUM one would think why not to push those back and get some more efficient case that will also allow
the use of the best bullets? Well, the answer is that this was already done in the year 2010 in response to the 375 saturday
night fever and success. They called the shorter RUM the RAM line for (Remington American magnum).
.300 Remington American Magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But then if you really look at the design closely one arrives to the conclusion that an improved case of these characteristics
is nothing more than the nice yet exclusive 300 Dakota. I actually took some of the cases I have from collection and from shooting
with other people and compared to the advertised RAM and gave me something very similar in practical terms.
300 RAM (Shortened and improved 300 RUM)
Parent case .404 Jeffery
Case type Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter .308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter .344 in (8.7 mm)
Shoulder diameter .525 in (13.3 mm)
Base diameter .550 in (14.0 mm)
Rim diameter .535 in (13.6 mm)
Rim thickness .050 in (1.3 mm)
Case length 2.580 in (65.5 mm)
Overall length 3.340 in (84.8 mm)
Case capacity 105 gr H2O (6.8 cm3)
Rifling twist 1-10"
Primer type Large rifle magnum
Maximum pressure 65,000 psi (450 MPa)
And this is the 300 Dakota...
300 Dakota next to a "skinny" 30.06.
But if you noticed the Dakota cases have actually a tad larger rim. Don't ask me why but they require a special bolt and custom actions
from Dakota rifles or you have to machine one. Or you can actually chamber the rifle to work with the standard magnum rim and then forget
about the Dakota ammunition that it is not that affordable nor exactly the objective.
So after much research on the subject I am left with the dilemma. I don't find a cartrige that is 100% what I want. This happens to many people
and probably the reason they end up reaming a variant or wildcat for their F-class competitions, long range hunting or whatever they do with them.
Also the 300 winmag performs so well in a wide range of applications that one feels it can do anything. But when exposed to the best bullets
then the obvious issues show up. At least berger bullets have created a tactical 308 bullet in 230gr that is not as nice as their top 230gr
hybrid but it works well in the longest magnums that otherwise will run out past max COAL before a bullet can be properly seated.
Also I got some of these hoochie mommas below to try and for this a specialized caliber with plenty free-bore is the ticket. However I need
to step down to 1:8 twist that was already in the plans anyway. That is the price you pay for shooting some of the solids / CNC cut that are much longer
than the lead filled counter parts.
Type: Solid copper hybrid profile.
Grains: 197
Ballistic Coefficient G1 of 0.827
So I have not decided yet. This is a long process for me that might take months and probably try some other rifles.
The RAM variant is looking good. I wish winchester had a long WSM that is better and harder brass though.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...252699-300-norma-vs-300-hulk.html#post3136462
Interesting that some folks who want to upgrade the WM are realizing the potential of some casings in std. bolt faces.
I am a huge fun of the 308 bore. I have been shooting the 308W and winmag for many years and I cannot get enough of it.
I tried larger and small bores and like them too for several purposes but for a do it all, do it pretty well always come back to the
308 and that includes also shooting within a reasonable budget.
I know what you are thinking, if you are shooting the winmag what else could possibly be needed but let me tell you ocassionally
you will reach for the heaviest bullets your case can launch at decent speeds and wheter is for an moose hunt using a long shot
or just to see if you can hit some target very far away you want grain.
Of course is not just the grain alone but some decent ballistics that can take that grain to some distance and still retain the velocity
to do whatever needs to be done. In case of game you want to stay withing the minimum recommended by the manufacturer and
if you can maybe look for a softer bullet depending on the game and weight.
The win-mag might be overkill for many situations but at the other hand if one gets comfortable with it one might find surprising how
versatile it can be. With all that said the winmag suffers from a little problem that might not be well known but that it definitely can impact
its performance.
Before you jump into the RUM and 300-378 or any other crazy alternative please hear me out. Those are clearly overbored, also suffer
from case design problems and or they require very expensive equipment that is hard to justify.
The winmag might not be perfect but it is super popular and unlike conventional thinking it can be very accurate for a belted magnum just
like the 7rem mag and several others.
The issue is that if I take the best bullets that the 308 department has to offer then the winmag falls a tad short literally. Not by much but the long
case with short neck and the imposed max COAL by the longest magazines makes one wonders if there is an easy popular upgrade
without going with exotic options and w/o overboring.
These are the options I have been considering for re-barreling a heavy rifle.
Initially I though about the popular WSM reamed to work in a long action using one of the extra free bore match reamers. It makes sort of a 6mm
norma BR in 308 version and on steroids. I looked at the data and ran the nrs. in quick load and found no benefit in spreads and reach. I needed more powder.
The next I looked at what is a very popular wildcat that is the 300/375.
Here is the 1st from the left. This is nothing more than a ruger 375 case necked down to 30 caliber.
pic courtesy form nz.hunting friends and forum.
This follows the right directives and I would not be surprised for this to become a successfully commercial version but
I don't want to deal with wildcats for this and also I don't think the 375 ruger takes maximum advantage.
You see, here is the catch...
Ruger and Hornady made a very wise move offering a sensible yet powerful rimless straight case option that works
on popular actions like rem 700, savage 10/11 and mauser actions among others w/o requiring extended actions,
and custom and expensive cuts for the action. Also uses a rim size of .534 that is the popular bolt face for many magnums
belted and straight. But since the appearance of the WSM and RUM line among others one wonders why not to go
with a slightly rebated rim and wider base/case that will further add to the capacity like the case with all the derivates
from the 404 Jeffry and beyond.
So one starts thinking like what about a cartrige that is a tad shorter than the winchester magnum with a more reasonable
neck, with the full .550 diameter at the base vs. the .534 of the 375 ruger but yet it provides a rebated rim of .534?
Many have gone the route of pushing back a RUM for the purpose of using the best and longest bullets and w/o running
over the ogive. One might also think why not use a 300 norma magnum or 338 lapua magnum and neck this down but
then again those use special bolts, are very expensive and will end up super overbored. Plus those work great for what
they do that is in the 338 department.
So going back to the RUM one would think why not to push those back and get some more efficient case that will also allow
the use of the best bullets? Well, the answer is that this was already done in the year 2010 in response to the 375 saturday
night fever and success. They called the shorter RUM the RAM line for (Remington American magnum).
.300 Remington American Magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But then if you really look at the design closely one arrives to the conclusion that an improved case of these characteristics
is nothing more than the nice yet exclusive 300 Dakota. I actually took some of the cases I have from collection and from shooting
with other people and compared to the advertised RAM and gave me something very similar in practical terms.
300 RAM (Shortened and improved 300 RUM)
Parent case .404 Jeffery
Case type Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter .308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter .344 in (8.7 mm)
Shoulder diameter .525 in (13.3 mm)
Base diameter .550 in (14.0 mm)
Rim diameter .535 in (13.6 mm)
Rim thickness .050 in (1.3 mm)
Case length 2.580 in (65.5 mm)
Overall length 3.340 in (84.8 mm)
Case capacity 105 gr H2O (6.8 cm3)
Rifling twist 1-10"
Primer type Large rifle magnum
Maximum pressure 65,000 psi (450 MPa)
And this is the 300 Dakota...
300 Dakota next to a "skinny" 30.06.
But if you noticed the Dakota cases have actually a tad larger rim. Don't ask me why but they require a special bolt and custom actions
from Dakota rifles or you have to machine one. Or you can actually chamber the rifle to work with the standard magnum rim and then forget
about the Dakota ammunition that it is not that affordable nor exactly the objective.
So after much research on the subject I am left with the dilemma. I don't find a cartrige that is 100% what I want. This happens to many people
and probably the reason they end up reaming a variant or wildcat for their F-class competitions, long range hunting or whatever they do with them.
Also the 300 winmag performs so well in a wide range of applications that one feels it can do anything. But when exposed to the best bullets
then the obvious issues show up. At least berger bullets have created a tactical 308 bullet in 230gr that is not as nice as their top 230gr
hybrid but it works well in the longest magnums that otherwise will run out past max COAL before a bullet can be properly seated.
Also I got some of these hoochie mommas below to try and for this a specialized caliber with plenty free-bore is the ticket. However I need
to step down to 1:8 twist that was already in the plans anyway. That is the price you pay for shooting some of the solids / CNC cut that are much longer
than the lead filled counter parts.
Type: Solid copper hybrid profile.
Grains: 197
Ballistic Coefficient G1 of 0.827
So I have not decided yet. This is a long process for me that might take months and probably try some other rifles.
The RAM variant is looking good. I wish winchester had a long WSM that is better and harder brass though.
Awesome analysis. When I start thinking this deep, I stick (DELETED) grains of XMR31000 in some cases, slip in a few Sierra 240s to give 2900 fps and go see what callled hits I can make out to 1300 yds from my friend's hayloft...at least I used to...
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
According to QL the RAM variant will do 2950fps with the 230gr. berger hybrid. That puts the round in the same bulk park as the 300 Norma but with a tad less powder and standard bolts and actions.
The Dakota with extra freebore is a tad behind just like the 300/375 but both require special work. I think the dakota being the easiest that could also be formed form other brass and then use
standard bolts. I mean, so we do not have to turn the rims on a lathe and save that step of brass preparation that is always a PITA.
So I could not find a picture of the 300 RAM (Remington American Magnum) variant but I think it would look
something like the first one from the right.
This will give me a bit more than the Dakota chamber and it feels the best balance between powder capacity and effective COAL.
Water capacity: 105gr h2o.
Case length 2.580 in (65.5 mm)
From Right to Left:
-300 RAM (more or less)
-300 RUM -parent
-300 Winchester Magnum
-300 WSM
-30.06
-308 Winchester.
something like the first one from the right.
This will give me a bit more than the Dakota chamber and it feels the best balance between powder capacity and effective COAL.
Water capacity: 105gr h2o.
Case length 2.580 in (65.5 mm)
From Right to Left:
-300 RAM (more or less)
-300 RUM -parent
-300 Winchester Magnum
-300 WSM
-30.06
-308 Winchester.
Looks like a GS custom bulletA few days ago I did post about this very same subject on this 300 norma thread...
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...252699-300-norma-vs-300-hulk.html#post3136462
Interesting that some folks who want to upgrade the WM are realizing the potential of some casings in std. bolt faces.
I am a huge fun of the 308 bore. I have been shooting the 308W and winmag for many years and I cannot get enough of it.
I tried larger and small bores and like them too for several purposes but for a do it all, do it pretty well always come back to the
308 and that includes also shooting within a reasonable budget.
I know what you are thinking, if you are shooting the winmag what else could possibly be needed but let me tell you ocassionally
you will reach for the heaviest bullets your case can launch at decent speeds and wheter is for an moose hunt using a long shot
or just to see if you can hit some target very far away you want grain.
Of course is not just the grain alone but some decent ballistics that can take that grain to some distance and still retain the velocity
to do whatever needs to be done. In case of game you want to stay withing the minimum recommended by the manufacturer and
if you can maybe look for a softer bullet depending on the game and weight.
The win-mag might be overkill for many situations but at the other hand if one gets comfortable with it one might find surprising how
versatile it can be. With all that said the winmag suffers from a little problem that might not be well known but that it definitely can impact
its performance.
Before you jump into the RUM and 300-378 or any other crazy alternative please hear me out. Those are clearly overbored, also suffer
from case design problems and or they require very expensive equipment that is hard to justify.
The winmag might not be perfect but it is super popular and unlike conventional thinking it can be very accurate for a belted magnum just
like the 7rem mag and several others.
The issue is that if I take the best bullets that the 308 department has to offer then the winmag falls a tad short literally. Not by much but the long
case with short neck and the imposed max COAL by the longest magazines makes one wonders if there is an easy popular upgrade
without going with exotic options and w/o overboring.
These are the options I have been considering for re-barreling a heavy rifle.
Initially I though about the popular WSM reamed to work in a long action using one of the extra free bore match reamers. It makes sort of a 6mm
norma BR in 308 version and on steroids. I looked at the data and ran the nrs. in quick load and found no benefit in spreads and reach. I needed more powder.
The next I looked at what is a very popular wildcat that is the 300/375.
Here is the 1st from the left. This is nothing more than a ruger 375 case necked down to 30 caliber.
pic courtesy form nz.hunting friends and forum.
This follows the right directives and I would not be surprised for this to become a successfully commercial version but
I don't want to deal with wildcats for this and also I don't think the 375 ruger takes maximum advantage.
You see, here is the catch...
Ruger and Hornady made a very wise move offering a sensible yet powerful rimless straight case option that works
on popular actions like rem 700, savage 10/11 and mauser actions among others w/o requiring extended actions,
and custom and expensive cuts for the action. Also uses a rim size of .534 that is the popular bolt face for many magnums
belted and straight. But since the appearance of the WSM and RUM line among others one wonders why not to go
with a slightly rebated rim and wider base/case that will further add to the capacity like the case with all the derivates
from the 404 Jeffry and beyond.
So one starts thinking like what about a cartrige that is a tad shorter than the winchester magnum with a more reasonable
neck, with the full .550 diameter at the base vs. the .534 of the 375 ruger but yet it provides a rebated rim of .534?
Many have gone the route of pushing back a RUM for the purpose of using the best and longest bullets and w/o running
over the ogive. One might also think why not use a 300 norma magnum or 338 lapua magnum and neck this down but
then again those use special bolts, are very expensive and will end up super overbored. Plus those work great for what
they do that is in the 338 department.
So going back to the RUM one would think why not to push those back and get some more efficient case that will also allow
the use of the best bullets? Well, the answer is that this was already done in the year 2010 in response to the 375 saturday
night fever and success. They called the shorter RUM the RAM line for (Remington American magnum).
.300 Remington American Magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But then if you really look at the design closely one arrives to the conclusion that an improved case of these characteristics
is nothing more than the nice yet exclusive 300 Dakota. I actually took some of the cases I have from collection and from shooting
with other people and compared to the advertised RAM and gave me something very similar in practical terms.
300 RAM (Shortened and improved 300 RUM)
Parent case .404 Jeffery
Case type Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter .308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter .344 in (8.7 mm)
Shoulder diameter .525 in (13.3 mm)
Base diameter .550 in (14.0 mm)
Rim diameter .535 in (13.6 mm)
Rim thickness .050 in (1.3 mm)
Case length 2.580 in (65.5 mm)
Overall length 3.340 in (84.8 mm)
Case capacity 105 gr H2O (6.8 cm3)
Rifling twist 1-10"
Primer type Large rifle magnum
Maximum pressure 65,000 psi (450 MPa)
And this is the 300 Dakota...
300 Dakota next to a "skinny" 30.06.
But if you noticed the Dakota cases have actually a tad larger rim. Don't ask me why but they require a special bolt and custom actions
from Dakota rifles or you have to machine one. Or you can actually chamber the rifle to work with the standard magnum rim and then forget
about the Dakota ammunition that it is not that affordable nor exactly the objective.
So after much research on the subject I am left with the dilemma. I don't find a cartrige that is 100% what I want. This happens to many people
and probably the reason they end up reaming a variant or wildcat for their F-class competitions, long range hunting or whatever they do with them.
Also the 300 winmag performs so well in a wide range of applications that one feels it can do anything. But when exposed to the best bullets
then the obvious issues show up. At least berger bullets have created a tactical 308 bullet in 230gr that is not as nice as their top 230gr
hybrid but it works well in the longest magnums that otherwise will run out past max COAL before a bullet can be properly seated.
Also I got some of these hoochie mommas below to try and for this a specialized caliber with plenty free-bore is the ticket. However I need
to step down to 1:8 twist that was already in the plans anyway. That is the price you pay for shooting some of the solids / CNC cut that are much longer
than the lead filled counter parts.
Type: Solid copper hybrid profile.
Grains: 197
Ballistic Coefficient G1 of 0.827
So I have not decided yet. This is a long process for me that might take months and probably try some other rifles.
The RAM variant is looking good. I wish winchester had a long WSM that is better and harder brass though.
Nice thread
I just made my own wildcat of the 300 Blaser Mag.
300 Blaser 37.5 improved
Parent case .404 Jeffery
Case type Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter .308 in
Neck diameter .341 in
Shoulder diameter .531 in
Base diameter .546 in
Rim diameter .535 in
Case length 2.540 in
Neck Lengt .351
Throat: 0.200 (throated for 200-230 gr bullets)
Case capacity 98 gr H2O
Brass: Norma
I just made my own wildcat of the 300 Blaser Mag.
300 Blaser 37.5 improved
Parent case .404 Jeffery
Case type Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter .308 in
Neck diameter .341 in
Shoulder diameter .531 in
Base diameter .546 in
Rim diameter .535 in
Case length 2.540 in
Neck Lengt .351
Throat: 0.200 (throated for 200-230 gr bullets)
Case capacity 98 gr H2O
Brass: Norma
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