New and trying to find some info

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panhndl

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Apr 10, 2009
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#1
I did a search for wind but came up short. What I'm trying to do is find some information about wind. I'm going to try to put together a hunting/long range rifle, but I live in a windy area. The average wind speed is 13 MPH.

I was thinking about the 338 lapua, but cost is a negative factor with this cartridge. I then got to looking at 300 Win Mag for a couple of reasons. 308 caliber bullets. TONS of options. Capable to 1000+ easily. But a fellow over at AR15.com rec'd .243 and 6 mm Crusader as options in wind.

Why would a 243 bullet buck wind better than a 308?

What would you reccommend for my situation? Please keep in mind that I would like to keep this rifle in a package that could be used for hunting big game if I needed one, but I'd sacrifice this if someone had something they really thought was a better fit.

Thanks,

Chris
 
#2
Re: New and trying to find some info

Deflections due to drop and drift are independent of bullet diameter.

The key factors are Velocity and Ballistic coefficient. The higher either is, or both are, then the shorter the time of flight will be. This translates into less drop and less drift.

The other issue is terminal performance.

In order for a projectile to have enough terminal performance, it must arrive ontarget with adequate remaining terminal energy. This issue <span style="font-style: italic">does</span> have a relationship with bullet diameter; as larger diameter bullets will have more terminal energy, velocity for velocity, than smaller diameter bullets with the same BC.

Finally, accuracy performance is at least partially dependent on marksmanship skill. There is no substitute for training and practice. Unless you are a moutain gorilla, recoil tends to discourage serious target practice, so make sure that when you buy enough gun, you're not buyibg more gun than you'd be comfortable shooting for 50-100rd or practice.

There is another approach to the practice issue, and that is to train and practice with a lesser chambering, and save the big stuff for the 'money shots'. Most of us here at The 'Hide are fans of rimfire training and practice. We save the big rifles' bores and ammo for sight-ins, ammo testing, target competition, and actual hunting.

Finally, no matter what chambering you use for the 'money shots', living and shooting in a 13MPH average wind envelope is not especially contributory to a succesful hunt. I know this may not be what you want to hear, but unless you are an exceptional shooter, long shots in big wind have a lower likelihood of obtaining a clean kill, and big terminal energy is not all that likely to convert an iffy shot placement into one.

Greg
 
#3
Re: New and trying to find some info

heh, thanks for the reply.

I should have been more specific. When I talk about hunting, about the only thing that I'd take a long shot at (say over 400 yards) is a coyote. In my local area, it would basically be for target/practice. I just don't want to build a rifle that weighs 17 lbs that is pretty much too heavy to consider for a bear hunt in Alaska or a hunt in Africa.

That being said, then lets leave out hunting in the 13 MPH wind and just focus on what caliber would be solid for shooting up to and maybe someday past 1000 yards while keeping in mind that I'd like to be able to use it for hunting "sometime" if the oppurtunity arose. 243 or 300 Win Mag? Something else?

I have to start somewhere on a gun for shooting long distances and I was just thinking 208 grain AMAX 300 Win Mag would be a nice load to design a rifle around for long shooting in bad conditions. Maybe the .243 and variants would be a better choice.

I hope that goes a bit towards explaining better.

Thanks,

Chris
 
#4
Re: New and trying to find some info

Well, I'm well known to be prejudiced in favor of the .260Rem.

If it wasn't for the dirth of commercial ammo choices, it would be my suggestion as perhaps the best chambering utilizing the .308 parent case's capacity. For 'yotes, it's probably not a bad choice at all, and I've used it as a target round for 1000yd F Class for several years.

If you handload, it's a great chambering; if you don't, the 7-08 and .243 are more logical choices, with the .243 favoring smaller game and the 7-08 favoring the larger game. This is not something hard and fast, but I think I'm reflecting the general train of thought here.

Greg
 
#5
Re: New and trying to find some info

Interesting. I looked up the 260Rem on a BC chart and they have plenty of commercial options available at over .6. The ammo looks reasonably priced, as well. What twist rate would you go with for 139 grain to 160 grain slugs?

Thanks,

Chris
 
#6
Re: New and trying to find some info

Ballistic Coefficient of projectiles in long range pursuits past 1000Y is paramount.Especially concerning wind drift the further away you shoot.

There are other considerations.
Cost of ammo and/or components if you reload.
Rate of barrel and throat wear.
Energy on target at distance.
Recoil/rifle weight/the necessity for a muzzle brake.

I have been playing around with a few of the different cartridges in 6mm,6.5,7mm,30cal,375 over the years from 300 to 2500 yards and have settled on the 30 cal with a fast twist(1-9)for 1000Y to 1800Y use.I shoot the 240grain Sierra Match kings out of it at 2775fps and have been impressed with what this rifle/cartridge is capable of at long range and extreme long range.

Consider that a 338 Lapua using a 250Gr SMK bullet at 2900fps with a BC of .606 is very similar in ballistics to my 30-375 Ruger with the 240's/.71BC at 2775fps.Once on a calm day I was able to shoot a 7 shot 13 inch group at 1800 yards.

I like it because:
It's extremely accurate .3 groups at 100 yards
It's reasonably cheap to shoot.72gr of R-25
The 240grain bullets have a high BC at .71
Recoil is not much at all with a muzzle brake and the rifle with scope weighing in at 18lbs.

7mm/.284 cal with 180 grain bullets would be a good performer also at longer distances too.

Hope this helps.

Steve


 
#7
Re: New and trying to find some info

Here's my thought for what it's worth. I'm relitivly new to long range shooting, about 2.5 years now. My suggestion is get something cheaper to load for and that you are going to get a lot of barrel life out of, i.e. a .308. I shoot more often in windy conditions than not. The key to becoming succussful at long range is trigger time. Everyone has a personal favorite, I've torched 4 barrels on my 243 AI, I love that rifle, but nothing sucks more then down time. A .308 is going to last a long time and built right with good ammo is more than capable at 1000.
 
#9
Re: New and trying to find some info

oh and we shoot at a 10 by 10 steel swinger plate. i have killed elk with my rifle. it is a cheap 10 year old savage 10 pre accutrigger with a 6x40 springfield fixed power scope also 10+ years old. mr14s gun is an expensive badger ord expensive optics, etc
 
#10
Re: New and trying to find some info

i have done several Steel Safari at Blue Steel ranch...longest shot was 700yd plus across the arroyo in the switchback wind......my thoughts are one would be best served by lots of trigger time with a .300wm or .300sm for ethical one shot kills at that distance....

when i compete there at Blue Steel ...i drive a .260....but i don't have to chase down any bad hits....
 
#11
Re: New and trying to find some info

Its beginning to sound like a 260 Rem might be my best bet for overall inexpensive shooting, flat trajectery, high BC, easily found reloading components, light recoil, and wind bucking capability.

If I chose in the .308 size there are multiple cartridges that *could* work but would be more recoil. And i suppose I could always dust off Grandpa's 338 and take it on an bear hunt.

Anyone else?

And seriously, this has been very educational for me. Thanks a ton.

Chris
 
#12
Re: New and trying to find some info

The 260 is a great round, the 6.5 Creedmor is gathering more and more steam, and I'm currently in the works of building a 6.5-06

I chose that over the 6.5-284 because 30-06 brass is plentiful and cheap. I've got tons of it for feeding a 30-06 already, and 270 brass is a minimal change in neck size to drop from 270 down to 6.5mm

The 6.5's have some incredible ballistics, for 1000-1200 yards they seem to be the go-to caliber. At .264 they're not really different from the 260 in diameter.

Brass for a Creedmor can (correct me if I'm wrong) be easily made form 308 cases, if you look you can find factory brass for it. I don't know about loaded ammo though.

The high BC bullet selection in 6.5mm is about as diverse as 30 caliber, and lots of companies make a great bullet for it.

Get trigger time first and foremost. If you skimp a little on buying a Shilen barrel instead of a Kreiger I bet you won't know the difference until you shoot out your first barrel, but that savings will get you a substantial portion of a Savage or a Marlin 22 bolt action you can shoot to 200 yards and train for 700+ on your centerfire rifle of choice.

BTW, welcome to the 'Hide.
 
#15
Re: New and trying to find some info

eh, I can't find any of the information I need to fill out the table you linked.

Can you link something else that will explain all I need to know to arrive at a answer. I can't figure out how to compute BC of .22 LR rounds because I can't find sectional densities for any of the bullets.

EDIT: And to go along with that, I guess I could begin looking at 22 rifles. Any thoughts on a solid one for target/range practice only?
 
#17
Re: New and trying to find some info

Don't forget the 7 mm in either the WSM, or regular full size. They have some of the highest BC I've seen compared to the 30 caliber.
 
#18
Re: New and trying to find some info

I've been shooting a 28" barrel with 1:8" twist. Remington has produced some factory guns with 24-26" barrels (I think...) and 1:9" twist, and markets 140gr hunting loads, so I think that a relatively longish barrel and 1:9" could work for up to 140gr. Really, that's just a quibble, and 1:8" would likely be the better recommendation; it's certainly the most common recommendation, and I would probably insist on it for loads above 140gr.

Greg
 
#19
Re: New and trying to find some info

Pan,
I've been shooting 155 Lapuas and Berger VLD's at a thousand for sometime now. The higher BC of these bullets make it easier to reach with less MOA adjustment. I run the Lapuas at 2875 and the Bergers around the same both from 24" bbl. The Bergers like to run long, almost to the lands. I am however in the same boat as you because I now want to build a .260. I'm working on a new .308 that will have a pinned lug so I'm thinking about just interchangeable bbls. You might want to consider that as an option because to have the ability to interchange bbls is alot cheaper than building a different gun from the action up. That way if later you decide on different calibers, just order a bbl. Just my thoughts.
 
#20
Re: New and trying to find some info

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: panhndl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">eh, I can't find any of the information I need to fill out the table you linked.

Can you link something else that will explain all I need to know to arrive at a answer. I can't figure out how to compute BC of .22 LR rounds because I can't find sectional densities for any of the bullets.

EDIT: And to go along with that, I guess I could begin looking at 22 rifles. Any thoughts on a solid one for target/range practice only? </div></div>

I used google to give me a few average values to work from, the difference between .134 and .130 is very small (average BC of a 40 grn RN 22LR bullet)

It's certainly not the "beat all end all" of spreadsheets but it's a good start from comparing my results in drop and drift out to 200y. I haven't taken it to 300...yet

For a 22 it depends on what you want to spend, you can do a Savage Mk II with acceptable glass for under 400 bucks, you can probably get a used Anschutz for under 800, in fact I saw one on gun broker go for low 6's last week.

Marlin 9xx series are well made, inexpensive and very accurate, but you have to put another trigger in them or do your own trigger job. I have 2 of them, both are getting a home-brew trigger job. ($150 rifle and $90 trigger? nope)

I have a Savage 93 in 17 HMR with an accurtrigger and damned if that thing isn't a tack driver. If you get a Savage Mk II make sure you get one with the accutrigger.
 
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